Pond Boss Magazine
https://www.pondboss.com/images/userfiles/image/20130301193901_6_150by50orangewhyshouldsubscribejpeg.jpg
Advertisment
Newest Members
Mike Damone, Steven Collins, suburban electri, Ratbird, MORiverRat
18,619 Registered Users
Forum Statistics
Forums36
Topics41,169
Posts560,209
Members18,619
Most Online3,612
Jan 10th, 2023
Top Posters
esshup 28,770
ewest 21,558
Cecil Baird1 20,043
Bill Cody 15,222
Who's Online Now
3 members (Fishingadventure, Boondoggle, Snipe), 540 guests, and 543 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Page 1 of 3 1 2 3
#461151 12/29/16 08:25 PM
Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 6,080
Likes: 1
Bill D. Offline OP
OP Offline
Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 6,080
Likes: 1
I've been trying to find an old thread(s) that discusses the pros and cons of pond dye without success. I did find one thread titled "Pros and cons of blue pond dye" but it never really addressed the question. Does anybody know of a link(s) that will help me get a better understanding of potential pond dye impacts (good and bad) on the pond ecosystem?

Last edited by Bill D.; 12/29/16 08:50 PM. Reason: Clarification

[Linked Image]
Be Brave Enough to Suck at Something New!
Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 6,088
Likes: 96
S
Offline
S
Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 6,088
Likes: 96
I struggled with using pond dye Bill because of the issue of reducing productivity. But I finally decided that in some aspects perhaps I had over productivity and reducing some of it might not be all bad.

My first year was basically an experiment to see if I wanted to do it again. I think it met my expectations enough to do it again. It possibly just could have been the conditions for that specific year, but I thouht I had decent success. If I can repeat it for multiple years, then I will consider it a success.

But hopefully I only have to do it for a few years. I'm getting some vegetation around the outside of the pond and hopefully some day I will have desirable vegetation taking up the nutrients instead of the FA.

Last edited by snrub; 12/29/16 09:55 PM.

John

I subscribe to Pond Boss Magazine
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 6,980
Likes: 15
S
Ambassador
Lunker
Offline
Ambassador
Lunker
S
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 6,980
Likes: 15
Like most things pondish, I think it comes down to one's goals. I apply dye to one of our ponds, and would never consider going without it, at least not in the pond's current configuration. This bow happens to be the HBG pond, and in this case I consider mother nature to be my adversary, not my ally. I want to control the DO levels, food chain, aquatic plant growth, everything I can.

Her goals and mine, simply do most mesh in this instance. In this case, I'm not convinced that a natural setting is best. Trying to live in harmony with nature basically means letting her win, and that is counterproductive to my goals.

I think a more natural setting allows for a great deal more flexibility.


"Forget pounds and ounces, I'm figuring displacement!"

If we accept that: MBG(+)FGSF(=)HBG(F1)
And we surmise that: BG(>)HBG(F1) while GSF(<)HBG(F1)
Would it hold true that: HBG(F1)(+)AM500(x)q.d.(=)1.5lbGRWT?
PB answer: It depends.
Joined: Jun 2015
Posts: 53
J
jgr Offline
Offline
J
Joined: Jun 2015
Posts: 53
snrub, I am somewhat new to this but have used pond dye some for three years. How does it reduce productivity?

Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 5,342
Likes: 312
Moderator
Offline
Moderator
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 5,342
Likes: 312
Tony, have you been lurking around my brood/growout pond? That's my exact same scenario for that BOW. I use dye for the same reasons I hand feed, raise and lower water levels, control forage and predators, etc. It's just part of the package for me.

I want to control everything relating to that pond, and dye allows my shoreline primrose and reeds grow, but helps control submersed weeds. I use Aquashade, and it does seem to give me better results.

I'm not sure I'd use dye in a naturally controlled pond, but I just don't know.


AL

Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 6,088
Likes: 96
S
Offline
S
Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 6,088
Likes: 96
Originally Posted By: jgr
snrub, I am somewhat new to this but have used pond dye some for three years. How does it reduce productivity?


This is just from what I read, not what I know.

"Productivity" is considered anything growing in the pond. Dye reduces light penetration so reduces growth that depends on that light. Thus reduces productivity.

So the definition that bioligists use may not be what we pondmeisters think of as productivity (ie more fish).

That explanation is already beyond my knowledge level.


John

I subscribe to Pond Boss Magazine
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 15,222
Likes: 528
B
Moderator
Ambassador
Field Correspondent
Lunker
Online Content
Moderator
Ambassador
Field Correspondent
Lunker
B
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 15,222
Likes: 528
Basic aquatic plant productivity including that from algae cascades nutrients up the food chain to zooplankton then invertebrates then fish aka a simple food chain. The full complex of various sections or components and the many interactions of all the parts of the cycle is called the food web of the pond or lake. Look up food webs which can be terrestrial or aquatic.

Basically when one reduces, by any means or method, the basic or bottom PLANT part of the food chain(web) everything on each feeding level above that nutrient or feeding level is reduced by often 10 times. The plant component is called basic productivity because every food level above plant is dependent on the overall amount of plants available to the grazers (second lever feeders). Each upper level or layer supports about 10 times less biomass.
http://texasaquaticscience.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/C5_fig_5.4jpg-aquatic-science-texas.jpg

Pond dye is intended or designed to reduce sunlight penetration into the pond similar to heavily shading your grass or garden. With reduced light less plant growth occurs. Less plant growth equals less animal growth. However this can be compensated in ponds by feeding fish who then rely on external fish food instead of the natural foods produced within the pond.

Last edited by Bill Cody; 12/30/16 04:34 PM.

aka Pond Doctor & Dr. Perca Read Pond Boss Magazine -
America's Journal of Pond Management
Joined: Jun 2015
Posts: 53
J
jgr Offline
Offline
J
Joined: Jun 2015
Posts: 53
Are we not trying to control the FA with the use of pond dye? If we have an outbreak of FA will that not also restrict the sunlight and cause some of the same problems but not look as pleasant as clean water that has the dye added.

Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 3,348
Likes: 106
Editor, Pond Boss Magazine
Lunker
Offline
Editor, Pond Boss Magazine
Lunker
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 3,348
Likes: 106
Dye won't control filamentous algae. I'll come from a slightly different angle that what Bill explained.
Dye prevents the sun's UV rays from penetrating the water column. That's what prevents (not control) plant life from growing. From a "productivity" perspective, we need sunlight to grow plankton. Plant plankton feeds the animal plankton which feeds slightly larger insects, threadfin shad and filter feeders. Those insects feed small fish which feed larger fish which feed bigger fish.
So, people who are interested in natural production of fish won't use a dye. People who's fish depend on fish food often prefer dye in order to minimize risk of filamentous algae. People with less interest in growing as many fish as possible often use dye, in an attempt to keep algae away.


Teach a man to grow fish...
He can teach to catch fish...
Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 6,080
Likes: 1
Bill D. Offline OP
OP Offline
Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 6,080
Likes: 1
Thanks for everybody's inputs. FWIW My take away is there are no "cut and dried" pros and cons for dye use. It depends on your goals for your pond. Hopefully, this thread provides some info that allows pondmiesters a better understanding of what the potential impact on the total pond ecosystem could be by using dye, not just on the algae and vegetation. I know I've learned a lot so far.

One of the questions I still have is regarding the colors of pond dye. Do different colors of dye impact the pond ecosystem to the same degree or in different ways?

Anybody else that has questions or experiences to share about pond dye, please jump in. The reason I started this thread is I failed to find an existing forum thread that provided a comprehensive discussion on dye and the impact(good and bad) on a pond's total ecosystem.

Last edited by Bill D.; 12/30/16 09:04 PM. Reason: After thought

[Linked Image]
Be Brave Enough to Suck at Something New!
Joined: Jun 2015
Posts: 53
J
jgr Offline
Offline
J
Joined: Jun 2015
Posts: 53
I am pretty new to this pond management thing, but I have been trying to learn by following this forum closely. We have had a 10 A. rock quarry for the last 3 years and the thing we fight is lack of vegetation because of lack of shallow area which is about an acre and a half. The rest is 20 to 35 ft.with steep walls. We have had to add a lot of structure. Maybe I shouldn't be concerned about FA since the poorest visibility I have seen is 3 ft. FA is ugly though. You are right though, I have to decide what is best for our goals. Our goals are all about the fish. My wife and I do really enjoy our family enjoying the fishing. I wish there was more exact answers for us. I did buy some more dye at the end of the summer to get started in the spring. I may just leave it on the shelf and be happy with what we have because that isn't to bad.

Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 15,222
Likes: 528
B
Moderator
Ambassador
Field Correspondent
Lunker
Online Content
Moderator
Ambassador
Field Correspondent
Lunker
B
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 15,222
Likes: 528
Dye at less than label concentration (variations of light blue hue) does have a less effect on the plankton and plant community. It is similar to taking 1/2 or one aspirin instead of 2 aspirin.

Last edited by Bill Cody; 12/30/16 09:03 PM.

aka Pond Doctor & Dr. Perca Read Pond Boss Magazine -
America's Journal of Pond Management
Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 6,080
Likes: 1
Bill D. Offline OP
OP Offline
Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 6,080
Likes: 1
Thanks Bill,

Fair to say then that a aqua blue dye has less impact than say a dark blue or black dye? I did find one of your old posts that talked about light wavelengths of red and orange being those that promote vegetation/algae. How does that relate to dye color?

I don't recall the exact timeframe of the old post but I think it was 10+ years ago. IIRC you and Kelly were also discussing budget dye vs name brand in the same thread.

Last edited by Bill D.; 12/30/16 09:19 PM. Reason: Clarification

[Linked Image]
Be Brave Enough to Suck at Something New!
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 15,222
Likes: 528
B
Moderator
Ambassador
Field Correspondent
Lunker
Online Content
Moderator
Ambassador
Field Correspondent
Lunker
B
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 15,222
Likes: 528
The dye color and sometimes blend of colors have a light filtration selection reduction ability of wavelength i.e. color. Thus the darker one makes the hue of the dye (concentration) you are using GENERALLY the more light filtration or removal that will be filtered from the water. The less the light that penetrates more wavelengths that are being excluded by the dye. Some wavelengths could be unaffected by the dye depending on color of dye.

I think most pond dyes are sold as aesthetic improvement of the water especially if the water is muddy murky - lipstick on a pig. To my knowledge not a lot has been published about what colors and what concentrations have the biggest suppression of pond plant growth. Definitely more research is needed on this topic.

Last edited by Bill Cody; 12/31/16 07:40 PM.

aka Pond Doctor & Dr. Perca Read Pond Boss Magazine -
America's Journal of Pond Management
Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 6,080
Likes: 1
Bill D. Offline OP
OP Offline
Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 6,080
Likes: 1
Originally Posted By: Bill Cody
....

I think most pond dyes are sold as aesthetic improvement of the water especially if the water is muddy murky - lipstick on a pig. To my knowledge not a lot has been published about what colors and what concentrations have the biggest suppression of pond plant growth. Definitely more research is needed on this topic.


Thanks Bill. That explains why I've been so unsuccessful finding info on the subject.

I did find an old PBF thread titled "Lake Dye Comparisons" where there were discussions regarding various products. It seems there was an effort started to do some actual comparative testing of different products but no definitive results were published. Here is a link to the thread.

http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=34865&page=1

Cody Note- That planned study never developed very much past the talking stage. It sounds like a good science fair project or a college senior project. One of the main problems was being able to acurately measure the amount or concentration of the dye. It takes an instrument more sophisticated than a basic light spectrometer.

Last edited by Bill Cody; 01/01/17 03:42 PM.

[Linked Image]
Be Brave Enough to Suck at Something New!
Joined: Oct 2015
Posts: 2,429
Likes: 20
J
Offline
J
Joined: Oct 2015
Posts: 2,429
Likes: 20
Dye will work as a flocculant if you use enough of it.

Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 6,080
Likes: 1
Bill D. Offline OP
OP Offline
Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 6,080
Likes: 1
Originally Posted By: John F
Dye will work as a flocculant if you use enough of it.


First I've heard of this John. Can you provide more info?


[Linked Image]
Be Brave Enough to Suck at Something New!
Joined: Oct 2015
Posts: 2,429
Likes: 20
J
Offline
J
Joined: Oct 2015
Posts: 2,429
Likes: 20
Sanco Industries Crystal Blue Pond Dye web page. Didn't post a link bc I don't know if they are a PB vendor.

I used it last spring and my pond was already somewhat clear, but it did seem to become a little more clear after the dye application.

Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 15,222
Likes: 528
B
Moderator
Ambassador
Field Correspondent
Lunker
Online Content
Moderator
Ambassador
Field Correspondent
Lunker
B
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 15,222
Likes: 528
Dye can influence and reduce the amount of plankton in the water column due to effects noted above. This in itself will increase transparency. Fewer phyto and zooplankton particles is like less fog in the air. I doubt that dye has any flocculation tendencies.


aka Pond Doctor & Dr. Perca Read Pond Boss Magazine -
America's Journal of Pond Management
Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 6,080
Likes: 1
Bill D. Offline OP
OP Offline
Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 6,080
Likes: 1
I pulled up the MSDS on the product John is talking about.

25.9% Acid 9 and 1% Surfactant. I checked the MSDS on Aquashade as well and it listed acid blue and acid yellow(%s unspecified) but no surfactant listed. Greek to me. Maybe it means something to the guys in the know on this kind of stuff. Any comments?


[Linked Image]
Be Brave Enough to Suck at Something New!
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 1,488
Likes: 2
Lunker
Offline
Lunker
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 1,488
Likes: 2
Originally Posted By: John F
Dye will work as a flocculant if you use enough of it.
Originally Posted By: Bill Cody
Dye can influence and reduce the amount of plankton in the water column due to effects noted above. This in itself will increase transparency. Fewer phyto and zooplankton particles is like less fog in the air. I doubt that dye has any flocculation tendencies.

I agree with Bill; that dyes have no inherent ability to precipitate clay or silt particles.
Any observed decrease in turbidity after a dye treatment is due to the non-correlated settling of suspended clay or silt solids, which would have occurred with or without the dye treatment.

Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 3,668
Likes: 58
T
Offline
T
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 3,668
Likes: 58
In my pond, which is now a little over two years old, I have fertilized the pond in the spring at or about April 1st. It was recommended to meet my goals. It has taken around 5 lbs of powered fertilizer to get the bloom going to where I am at 24" of green water. By April first the pond is full of new cnbg, fhm's and this year I should have an lmb spawn by that time. May also have some res in the spawning mix, with Tfs and Tp soon to follow. So, I my situation this past two years I have had many blooms through the hot summer months and that has reduced my visibility down to 13" of green water. We have also seen a drought from July to November with little to no rain, reducing the water volume in the pond. We also feed the cnbg. Ok, now the question. In this situation can I add dye to reduce the blooms but keep the plankton at a good level while reducing the number of blooms but still keep enough plankton to feed the new spawns. And would adding the dye during the blooms cause a dye off and the reduce the DO that might cause a fish kill. And we have air through diffusers. So, will adding a small amount of dye reduce the number of blooms or reduce the plankton to a controllable number and keep the green water to a 18 to 24" visibility number?


Do not judge me by the politicians in my City, State or Federal Government.


Tracy
Joined: Oct 2015
Posts: 2,429
Likes: 20
J
Offline
J
Joined: Oct 2015
Posts: 2,429
Likes: 20
The website says it clears the water. If it doesn't, then it is a case of false advertising. My "perception" was slightly clearer water, but it could have been due to the color.

Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 15,222
Likes: 528
B
Moderator
Ambassador
Field Correspondent
Lunker
Online Content
Moderator
Ambassador
Field Correspondent
Lunker
B
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 15,222
Likes: 528
JohnF - If the dye reduces the amount - density of plankton which in turns causes slightly clearer water there is no false advertising. Lack of water clarity is due to increased amounts of of suspended solids/particles: 1. silt-clay aka mud, 2. bacteria, 3. phytoplankton, 4. zooplankton, and 5. suspended dead organic particles of various sizes aka detritus. Stain or color of the water can also contribute to hue in the water.

TGW1 - Instead of trying to use dye to reduce the amount of plankton why not start trying to use less fertilizer? Maybe in 2017 use 4 or 4.2 lbs instead of 5 lbs. Depending on results one year try 3.7lbs of fertilizer than later add one pound? Experiment until you get the bloom density you want. Then later if the water does not have the 18"-26" clarity add a 0.5 lb of fertilizer. This should be a better way to get you to your goal. Keep in mind that your pond alkalinity can change from year to year which will affect the ability to produce a bloom. Ideally you should take an alkalinity measurement before adding the fertilizer to verify the alkalinity is adequate or same as last year when the bloom was good.

There is another important factor in forming blooms - internal recycled nutrients. Your pond sediments do decompose to add nutrients to the water plus nutrients runoff adds and flushes nutrients if there is an outflow. Keep these factors in mind when fertilizing to create blooms.

Last edited by Bill Cody; 02/10/22 08:04 PM.

aka Pond Doctor & Dr. Perca Read Pond Boss Magazine -
America's Journal of Pond Management
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 4,596
Likes: 36
Lunker
Offline
Lunker
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 4,596
Likes: 36
Could Sanco Crystal Blue Pond dye have some slight clearing capabilities? The primary ingredient is Acid Blue 9.



Page 1 of 3 1 2 3

Link Copied to Clipboard
Today's Birthdays
4D Ranch, gunsmoke
Recent Posts
Just received my magazine
by Theo Gallus - 07/18/24 09:46 AM
Best weed
by B BUG - 07/18/24 06:41 AM
Optimal vs. Purina
by Boondoggle - 07/17/24 10:42 PM
Running electric or air uphill
by Boondoggle - 07/17/24 08:43 PM
Plant ID Please…
by Bill Cody - 07/17/24 07:57 PM
Alum worked for 3 days now getting cloudy again!
by N.C.PondJoe - 07/17/24 03:21 PM
Weeds Wanted
by Spicelanebass - 07/17/24 02:37 PM
Dropping Lake and want to improve Spawning
by FireIsHot - 07/17/24 07:54 AM
Newbie in east TN
by Steven Collins - 07/17/24 06:15 AM
Need Pond Builder Cooke County TX area
by Greg Mc - 07/16/24 01:04 PM
To aerate, and how to do it?
by Bill Cody - 07/16/24 10:16 AM
Faux trees & plants
by DeerTexas - 07/15/24 10:14 PM
Newly Uploaded Images
Major change since 2009
Major change since 2009
by SENKOSAM, July 3
Fishing with my Best Buddy
Fishing with my Best Buddy
by Theo Gallus, June 29
Eagles Over The Pond Yesterday
Eagles Over The Pond Yesterday
by Tbar, December 10
Deer at Theo's 2023
Deer at Theo's 2023
by Theo Gallus, November 13
Minnow identification
Minnow identification
by Mike Troyer, October 6
Sharing the Food
Sharing the Food
by FishinRod, September 9

� 2014 POND BOSS INC. all rights reserved USA and Worldwide

Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5