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Maybe also leave one in the pond and see how a coating of algae effects the results?


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Originally Posted By: FireIsHot
Maybe also leave one in the pond and see how a coating of algae effects the results?


Algae won't form on a galvanized trap. Had a client have 1/2 of one roll into the pond. 5 months later I fished it out. No algae, but some signs of rust showing. When he went to use it next year, it lasted a day before a big rust hole showed up.


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Originally Posted By: Bill Cody
poppy65 - You must have bought that trap somewhere other than Dunn's or is it an old trap no longer sold by Dunn's.


Dang Bill, I'm getting old. I bought it online from someplace about a year ago. I've looked at Dunn's site several times and may be confused. I'll see if I can find it.

ETA, Here it is Bill. It is at Dunn's site. I was off on the width a bit. It is 4 feet long by 20 inches across.


DUNN'S 'KWIK KETCH' FISH TRAP - kkft - FISH TRAP DUNN'S 'KWIK KETCH' FISH TRAP
Product# kkft
The Kwik-Ketch Fish Trap is the answer to the problem of undesirable fish in your pond or lake. Unlike most traps, our fish traps are constructed of only the most durable of plastic materials so corrosion will never be an issue. This trap weighs in at only 8 pounds so it's lightweight enough that almost anyone can use it, but durable enough that it always holds its shape.
At 48" tall and 20" through the center, this trap is large enough to catch the big fish, but with an adjustable throat it can still hold the small ones too. Whether you are trying to rid your pond of unwanted fish, or you just want a few fish to eat but don't always have the time to fish, Dunns Fish Trap is the answer.

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I have a home made one with galvanized wire. It's the size of a 30 gallon barrel. I've used small traps next to it of both black coated and uncoated with no discernable difference in catch rates.

Last edited by Dave Davidson1; 11/14/16 07:14 AM.

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I get mixed results Dave. I think overall performance of the Gee's is better and their quality is tops. But once in a while there will be more fish in the black plastic one. It is kind of a crap shoot.

But if I have need to buy any more, it will be the Gee's. Overall I like their traps better.

Last edited by snrub; 11/11/16 07:36 PM.

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poppy65 - Okay thanks for the clarification. I was looking at Dunn's Sporting goods not Dunn's Fish Farm. I forgot there was a Dunn's Fish Farm. Can you look to see what the mesh size is, 1/2" or 3/4"? Can we assume the door to remove fish is in the side? How is the throat adjustable? Their picture is poor quality.
How do they ship that big thing?
http://dunnsfishfarm.com/fish_trap_detail_183_prd1.htm

Last edited by Bill Cody; 11/11/16 08:08 PM.

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Originally Posted By: Dave Davidson1
I have a home mad one with galvanized wire. It's the size of a 30 gallon barrel. I've used small traps next to it of both black coated and uncoated with no discernable difference in catch rates.


Dave,

When you say "black coated," are they painted black or coated with black vinyl? Are your black traps well used and pretty old or are they relatively new additions to your pond management tool box?

To this uneducated eye, your experience indicates to me there is more to it than just trap color. Perhaps species to be trapped, density of fish, habitat the trap is placed in, etc. are variables that can come into play making a definitive result difficult. One thing I find interesting is your results do indicate that the galvanized does at least as well as the black. That is one finding that seems to run true thru all the info so far. I have yet to see anything that says the black out performs the galvanized under any conditions.

Perhaps another consideration is smell. When something is coated in vinyl, I can smell it. I would think fish can too. What about a painted trap? Yes it is a different color but can the fish smell the paint where maybe they can't smell the galvanized trap or maybe the smell is not as offensive? Is smell just as/more important than color?

Last edited by Bill D.; 11/11/16 08:37 PM. Reason: Clarification

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Originally Posted By: Bill Cody
poppy65 - Okay thanks for the clarification. I was looking at Dunn's Sporting goods not Dunn's Fish Farm. I forgot there was a Dunn's Fish Farm. Can you look to see what the mesh size is, 1/2" or 3/4"? Can we assume the door to remove fish is in the side? How is the throat adjustable? Their picture is poor quality.
How do they ship that big thing?
http://dunnsfishfarm.com/fish_trap_detail_183_prd1.htm


Bill, it just came in a big cardboard box. I'll have to measure the mesh size tomorrow. The door is on the side but has no latch. It just kind of pushes in place. I haven't messed with the throat but it looks to just have hog rings holding it in place. I suppose you could remove the hog ring closest to the hold and expand it. It works well for me at this size because I just use it to catch 3 or 4 inch bluegill to transfer to my big pond. I hadn't seen any reproduction from the few YP I put in 2 years ago but I have caught three in this trap smaller than what I stocked, so I know I had some.

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poppy65 - Good report thanks for the info.


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P65,

Sounds like your large black trap is plastic with no paint or vinyl coating. Correct?

Last edited by Bill D.; 11/12/16 06:50 PM.

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Originally Posted By: Bill D.
P65,

Sounds like your large black trap is plastic with no paint or vinyl coating. Correct?


Yes. I'm not sure why it catches a lot of fish while my black plastic minnow traps catch very few. Maybe a trap like this made from hardware cloth would do even better? Bull frog tadpoles seem to like it too. Caught 3 dozen or so of those last week when I set it out.

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Bill, it looks like it was dipped in some sort of vinyl. I don't see a difference but I've never really tried to test them. I put some feed in a piece of panty hose. Then put a little bit in the trap. Then I toss a small amount into the trap area.

There may be times when one works better than another but I've never worried about it. Heck, they work. The biggest deal is to be there about 20 minutes after putting the trap in the water. Much longer and they get away in the small traps. In the 30 gallon one, I can generally wait an hour but I have no idea what happens during that time.


It's not about the fish. It's about the pond. Take care of the pond and the fish will be fine. PB subscriber since before it was in color.

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Thanks for the additional insight Dave!

In my 35 years as an engineer I have run hundreds of DOEs (Design of Experiment) and I can honestly say I don’t recall one that has more variables than this potential one. Let’s see there’s trap color, soak time, species, trap config, trap coating, type of BOW, water clarity, water temp, time of day, weather conditions, bait used, water depth, vegetation present, and on and on……..It goes on forever! I’m throwing up my hands and just going to trap the little guys with my galvanized Gee traps; they work for me good enough. I accept I might catch a few more on a given day under the exact right conditions with something else….

First analogy that comes to mind is it's like trying to come up with the best bait to catch bass...well it depends on.....and besides, the Bass Pro Shop catalog and shops would be boring with only one bass bait! smile

My thanks to everybody that provided inputs. I suspect you've saved me a lot of frustration trying to sort out a very complex problem by attempting to apply a simplistic approach when it is impossible to prevent uncontrolled variables from creeping into the study.. I think there is enough data already that says a galvanized trap works "pretty good."

Last edited by Bill D.; 11/15/16 08:15 PM. Reason: After thought

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Pumpkinseed for snail control update…

The goal in stocking pumpkinseed sunfish (PS) in our pond was twofold. One, they are a really pretty fish and bring back memories of my childhood; catching them in rivers and streams in central Indiana. (My mom cooked hundreds of 5 inch PS!). Primarily though the goal was snail control.

Some history…

I stocked 100 small (1 to 2 inch mostly and a few 2.5) PS in the fall of 2014.

In 2015 we did not catch any PS and I saw no fingerlings in the minnow traps.

Several very small snails observed when skimming vegetation late summer 2016.

In 2016 we started catching a few 5 to 6 inch PS by hook and large numbers of 1.5 inch in late summer in the minnow traps.

Background:…

There are also BG and a few HBG in the pond. The number of BG making it to the 3 to 6 inch size class is small

We will continue to harvest the few remaining large CC and LMB 15 inches or larger

I know that snails are not the preferred forage for PS. They would much rather eat aquatic insects, zoo plankton, etc. An old Dr. Willis article provides that you need to have BG stocked along with the PS as the BG will hog the preferred forage, which forces the PS to target the snails.

So I THINK, I have the right ingredients in place to maybe get the PS to start controlling the snails. Hopefully, the now reproducing PS population, along with harvest of CC and LMB (only a few left of each), will take some of the pressure off the BG allowing them to get a few more recruits into the 3 to 6 inch size class. More BG should put more pressure on the forage base for the PS and possibly get them to move towards eating more snails. I may be walking a fine line between getting enough BG to force the PS to eat snails and an over population of PS, BG or both. I will be watching the BG and PS populations closely to see if the predator harvest plan needs tweaking.

There are a whole bunch of IFs here. It is an interesting experiment.

Comments, constructive criticism or suggestions would be appreciated!


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Originally Posted By: Bill D.
.... Hopefully, the now reproducing PS population, along with harvest of CC and LMB (only a few left of each), will take some of the pressure off the BG allowing them to get a few more recruits into the 3 to 6 inch size class.. .....


When I first stocked my pond one concern was that the BG would probably over populate as my small mouthed predators (YP, SMB and WE) would most likely be unable to control their population. As of this fall, just the opposite seems to be the case. The BG are unable to provide many recruits larger than 3 inches. I have struggled to understand why that is. A post by Ewest in another thread started maybe shedding some light. To paraphrase, “the cool water YP eat a lot of small BG when the water cools in the fall as the BG slow down but the YP are still going strong.” If I extend that thought to the same principle probably applies to the SMB and WE, who are eating slightly larger BG than the YP, and that I have a few LMB and CC, then maybe the reason I have such poor BG recruitment becomes more clear. Add to that my pond is in Northern Illinois and that the BG only spawn 3 times (in a good year), might add another piece to the puzzle. I’ve spent a lot of time going thru old threads to see if I could find any evidence that folks have succeeded in establishing a cool species pond with BG as forage. I found this old thread.

http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=10096&page=1

One post in that old thread that really caught my attention…

Originally Posted By: lakedoctor
....This is all about stocking rates and the size of the smallies when stocked.The smb that I like to stock is between 4to8" If the bluegill is stocked at a rate of .50 normal rates then the only thing that is going to be overpopulated is the fishermen on the bank.The SMB will keep the bluegill pop. in tact they don't target the big bluegill because well the name says it all Smallmouth. But the fry to 3" size is fair game and in the north it makes a nice balance. The only thing that I didn't add was the channels.Stock these at below normal rates last 4to6" is good.I have stocked 3to4 ponds this way and all are doing better than the large mouth at growth and population balance.The owners are happy and won't let me take my best friend fishing.The Smb are 4years old and are between 3.5 to almost 5 pounds with plenty of huge bluegill to throw on the dinner plate.This type of pond needs to be monitored close to keep a good balance but is well worth it. DOC


I’m now wondering whether my PS spawning may actually be a necessity in providing enough forage as we move into 2017. I also have a few GSH (stable small population) and stocked in 2016 SFS, BNM and PSC in the pond. I also supplemental feed pellets (This spring it will be Optimal BG chow)

Questions:

1) Do PS stay more active as the water cools than the BG do; maybe making the PS perhaps more elusive with a better chance at recruitment?

2) I would think the SMB and WE will also target small SMB and YP. Can BG and PS together provide enough additional forage for the predators I have with good management of predator numbers?

3) Should I stock more adult BG?

4) Should I start harvesting some of the larger YP?

Any suggestions or comments would be appreciated! smile


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Bill, are you seeing any YP recruitment with that combo? I've watch my SMB line up 4 at a time to take turns hammering a school of young YP and I see near zero recruitment. I also have BG and HBG and a few HSB. I do get a fair amount of HBG and BG recruitment

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poppy65 if you want more recruitment from you YP reduce the number of predators eating the young YP. You are not doubt getting hatches of the YP, but too many predators are reducing the numbers of young YP. Also significantly increasing the amount of habitat especially dense habitat will help recruitment of YP. Perch do well in weedy ponds. Consider adding hybrid water lilies.


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Originally Posted By: poppy65
Bill, are you seeing any YP recruitment with that combo? I've watch my SMB line up 4 at a time to take turns hammering a school of young YP and I see near zero recruitment. I also have BG and HBG and a few HSB. I do get a fair amount of HBG and BG recruitment


Hey Poppy,

All I can tell you is that when I was feeding last spring, I had a few 4 to 5 inch YP come up to eat with my little group of BG recruits near shore. The YP pretty much disappeared as the water warmed up. The YP had to be recruits from the 2015 spawn.

I was actually pretty happy with the pond balance in 2016. The larger BG caught were nice and fat and the predators had Rw of roughly 100+/-5%. I THINK low recruitment is what you are after if you want bigger BG and YP. My concern is 2017 and beyond as my predators grow and need more forage. I'm hoping now that the PS are spawning they will provide the additional forage needed for a while. The pond only has so much capacity so I know I need to keep harvesting predators like the LMB and CC. My question is once those guys are gone, if I'm seeing low recruitment on BG, PS and YP, which cool water predators should I harvest, how many and what size to keep them from over eating the forage? The other scenario is my pond ends up over populated by SF!

I haven't been having much luck with getting many inputs from the forum and I'm in uncharted waters for me. Trying to understand what I'm seeing and figuring out what to do next is definitely challenging.


Last edited by Bill D.; 12/27/16 05:04 PM. Reason: Clarification

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""and the predators had Rw of roughly 100+/-5%."" Your predators are likely plump from eating small perch. Harvest all larger predators and replace or ladder stock with small predators especially if your predators do not reproduce. It is all about management and numbers balance.

Last edited by Bill Cody; 12/27/16 05:27 PM.

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Originally Posted By: Bill Cody
""and the predators had Rw of roughly 100+/-5%."" Your predators are likely plump from eating small perch. Harvest all larger predators and replace or ladder stock with small predators especially if your predators do not reproduce. It is all about management and numbers balance.


Thanks for throwing me a life line Bill!

How does this sound?

Remove as many CC over 16 and over as I can. No ladder stocking until I get most/all of current herd out. Then stock no more than 5 at a time and remove at 16 or over.

My wife loves to eat bass so remove all LMB 15 or larger and SMB 16 or larger. I already ladder stocked 5 or 6 SMB this summer as no sign yet the original stockers have reproduced.

Remove WE 18 or larger and ladder stock as required to replace removed fish.

Remove the size class of YP under the largest caught.

I know the YOY YP are still probably going to get hammered with this plan but I worry the BG and PS populations will explode if I cut the predator size too low.


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If YP presence are important you can always ladder stock them. Adding 20-30 YP(6"-8") each year is economical and will help a lot to keep the brood stock adequate and viable. In a pond your size 20-30 perch at early maturity size is acceptable recruitment in a mixed fish community and pond size similar to yours.

If it were my pond, I would reduce the predator size by 1"-2" to harvest when these predators are caught. Eat them. Walleye at 15", recruiting LMB at 13"-14", CC at 14"-15" all produce acceptable fillets. As you see more presence of small sunfish via trapping and angling, then you can increase the harvest slot limit size. Catching targeted predator fish is a lot easier to talk about compared to actually doing it. Been there done all that.

With CC having a tendency to become hook smart with each catch-release and the problem of selectively targeting, removing them, I would never release a CC of any size once it is 'landed'. In your situation I would never restock CC. IMO the last 1-3 CC of your current fishery will be quite difficult to catch even though they show up a feeding times.

With both LMB & SMB present in a small to medium pond do not ever expect to see recruitment of the SMB. I have yet to hear of it happening after many years dealing with smallies. If it ever happens, I want to hear about the pond size, habitat type and overall pond conditions. LMB have a STRONG repressive affect on the spawn and recruitment of smallmouth. I assume it is possible for SMB to recruit in a small lake containing highly complex habitat, but it would be extremely rare.

Last edited by Bill Cody; 12/27/16 07:43 PM.

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Bill C have you any experiience with trying to trap predators? I would think CC would be possible but LMB not.

I have one medium sized fish trap but very limited usage. I'm hoping I can harvest some of my large CC next year via trapping by making my own large trap like some of the ones posted in previous threads.

Last edited by snrub; 12/27/16 08:01 PM.

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I rarely trap in ponds with CC. A good thing to check with this is contact the closest or known fishery biologist to you. Maybe check with Lusk?. Most states regularly set trap nets to monitor fish populations. This will provide an idea how well CC enter their traps. Lead lines may help direct CC into the trap. Baited or unbaited who knows? Trap size and shape does affect the largest fish that can enter the trap. I regularly catch smallmouth and walleye in traps, very, very rare is a LMB caught; only one trap captured fingerling LMB in my trapping history.

Last edited by Bill Cody; 12/27/16 08:11 PM.

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First...Thanks again Bill. There is a pondmeister in Northern Illinois that will sleep a little better tonight now that he has a plan for the future. smile

To help avoid the hook shy issue with CC, I have used a bigger hook, #2. The little guys rarely can get that hook in their mouth but learn the food on that hook is good to eat. So when they get big enough for the #2 hook .... Yes, you get a lot of nuisance bites and spend time re-baiting the hook. Changing baits also helps. Not a fool proof method thou. Nothing you can do when you are fishing with a smaller hook with a worm for BG and a smaller CC jumps on. That's ok cause I love small CC with the "bone in" deep fried! grin

Last edited by Bill D.; 12/28/16 07:49 AM.

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Originally Posted By: snrub
Bill C have you any experiience with trying to trap predators? I would think CC would be possible but LMB not.

I have one medium sized fish trap but very limited usage. I'm hoping I can harvest some of my large CC next year via trapping by making my own large trap like some of the ones posted in previous threads.


Snrub,

IIRC CC are arguably the smartest fish in the pond. I will be surprised if the big ones are easily trapped. Please let us know how it goes.


Last edited by Bill D.; 12/28/16 07:46 AM.

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