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#460845 12/23/16 08:21 PM
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Bill D. Offline OP
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I'm in Illinois so the obvious answer of Tilapia is not a legal option for me. I know crawfish will eat FA and I have stocked papershell crawfish (PSC) but even if they survive, I don't see those small craws controlling much FA and there is no way to make them eat FA instead of desirable vegetation.

Does anybody have any ideas on a critter that eats FA and will be forage to my fish predators? Maybe a bigger craw that prefers FA?


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Bill D. #460864 12/24/16 07:34 AM
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Hey Bill, have you seen some of the past posts by John Monroe? There was something he claimed was good at this, but I do know it was always controversial, probably because there wasn't definitive proof. However, it may be worth looking into.

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As I recall John M talked about Isreali carp being part of his control method.


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Bill D. #460869 12/24/16 08:32 AM
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Yeah, that was it. I thought there was also a small baitfish/minnow that he thought helped too. He also said that his spatterdock helped. If I recall correctly, once his spatterdock was removed, the FA got worse. I found the same thing too. Perhaps they were using the nutrients before the FA could.

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The thing with Johns pond is that he didn't fish in his pond, so a large amount of underwater weeds didn't bother him.


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3/4 to 1 1/4 ac pond LMB, SMB, PS, BG, RES, CC, YP, Bardello BG, (RBT & Blue Tilapia - seasonal).
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John's small pond when I saw it was 95% spatterdock, definatly too weedy for any angling. Israeli carp are bottom rooters especially when they are sizable adults. Expect them to make your pond more cloudy depending on how many and what size carp are present and if aeration is present which mixes resuspended sediment. If you don't mind summer visibilities in the 8"-13" range israeli can work. Make sure bass are present to eat any offspring. As your eelgrass expands over 30% bottom area coverage your water will have less & less FA and the water will become clearer and clearer. Tolerate and manage your FA and have patience until then. Maybe cut back on how much and often you feed the fish. Maybe reduce the numbers of fish so the standing stock is not as high and less food is needed and less manure is produced.

Last edited by Bill Cody; 12/24/16 04:19 PM.

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Bill D. #460898 12/24/16 03:03 PM
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From an old thread: bull heads were found to have fa in their bellies?? Another species that most people don't want.

Was this from a fishing extravaganza at Sunils???? My memory is just gone, sorry.
Cody Note: some FA is ingested by fish that are selecting the invertebrates and the FA comes with the food item. Fish have a hard time picking invertebrates out of the FA.

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Originally Posted By: Bill D.
I'm in Illinois so the obvious answer of Tilapia is not a legal option for me. I know crawfish will eat FA and I have stocked papershell crawfish (PSC) but even if they survive, I don't see those small craws controlling much FA and there is no way to make them eat FA instead of desirable vegetation.

Does anybody have any ideas on a critter that eats FA and will be forage to my fish predators? Maybe a bigger craw that prefers FA?



Why are Tilapia not OK in Illinois?

Tbar #460904 12/24/16 05:49 PM
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Originally Posted By: Tbar
Why are Tilapia not OK in Illinois?


Illinois DNR prohibits them in all Illinois waters except in aquaculture setups.


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CMM #460905 12/24/16 05:51 PM
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Originally Posted By: CMM
From an old thread: bull heads were found to have fa in their bellies?? Another species that most people don't want.

Was this from a fishing extravaganza at Sunils???? My memory is just gone, sorry.
Cody Note: some FA is ingested by fish that are selecting the invertebrates and the FA comes with the food item. Fish have a hard time picking invertebrates out of the FA.


I've found FA in the stomachs of CC as well and I think Bill C. nailed the reason why.


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Bill D. #460907 12/24/16 06:10 PM
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Thanks everyone for the inputs so far! smile

I read a bunch of old threads before posting this question. IIRC, after a winter kill of his carp and Koi, John Monroe was planning to try huge amounts of tadpoles and GSH to control FA. I did not find any follow-up info on results of his experiment. Haven't see John posting for a while. Hope he is ok.

I don't want to deal with turbidity from carp or koi. In addition, they can grow huge and IMO they are unproductive biomass as they don't provide significant forage and you can't eat them (at least I don't). I don't want to use up any of the limited capacity of my small pond on them.

At this point, I will plan to follow Bill C's recommendation of patience, mechanical removal and reduction of nutrients being introduced to the pond. I don't feed much but I suspect 2 pairs of geese with babies in the pond for a few weeks this past spring were major contributors of nutrients supporting the FA this past summer.

Anybody have any other ideas? Perhaps what I'm looking for, FA feeding forage for my predators, is Mission Impossible in Illinois.

Last edited by Bill D.; 12/24/16 07:10 PM. Reason: After thought

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Bill Cody #460910 12/24/16 07:15 PM
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Originally Posted By: Bill Cody
As your eelgrass expands over 30% bottom area coverage your water will have less & less FA and the water will become clearer and clearer. Tolerate and manage your FA and have patience until then.


Bill, can you elaborate on the eelgrass? Where to get it, how hard it is to establish, areas it is adapted to. Or maybe a link to an old thread?

I know it has probably been discussed in the past and I could search for it. I have resisted trying to establish any plants in my pond except spike rush and arrowhead which I sourced locally. But the eelgrass sounds pretty desirable.

Edit: here is one thread I found
2012 thread on corkscrew eelgrass

another

Last edited by snrub; 12/24/16 08:19 PM.

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Bill D. #460913 12/24/16 08:46 PM
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Eel grass success has variables: variety or species of Vallisneria used, location, amount of other competing species, how it is planted, type of winter it endures, if waterfowl or bottom rooting fish are present to uproot new plants and keep it from establishing. The native standard species Vallisneria americana (native) is the most durable, most tolerant, and tallest species of the genus. I no longer prefer it due to fairly fast spread and tall growth habit of up to 6ft tall. I prefer the shorter varieties although many of them are adapted to more warm winter water with a reduced amount of ice cover.

Last edited by Bill Cody; 12/24/16 08:49 PM.

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Bill D. #461016 12/27/16 06:28 PM
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Last summer, I only ran my aeration for 4 to 6 hours at night. Would increasing aeration time to 24/7 decrease the amount of FA or have no/little impact?


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Bill D. #461024 12/27/16 07:53 PM
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I doubt that increasing aerator run time will significantly and measurably reduce FA - my experience. If the aerator is operated 24/7 and FA is less next year, how do we know that pond vascular plant (macrophyte) density is not more abundant (nutrient and space competitive)?, the dissolved nutrient concentration has changed?, and measurable nutrient laden runoff has not changed from that in 2016? Numerous unmeasured variables contribute to growth of FA. See post below that indicates abundant crayfish can keep FA to a minimum. Abundant populations of crayfish can be hard to maintain especially true with reproducing bass present.

IMO Four things separately or better in combination will more likely reduce the FA in 2017, 1. reduce the amount of nutrient rich fish food that is added, 2. reduce the amount or number of fish contributing manure to the system, 3. encourage more submerged nutrient absorbing plant growth, 4. harvest as much nutrient laden, pond plant growth including FA as practical in 2017. The more plants that are harvested the less nutrients that are recycled to grow or stimulate the next crop of filamentous algae.

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Bill D. #461050 12/28/16 11:34 AM
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Well one option and it is a slim one is lots and lots of crayfish. I have had now feed the same amount of feed over the past three years if not more this year. We had the least amount of FA in our pond this year then any year yet. We do have the most crayfish in our pond this past year then any year before.

We have the perfect habitat for crayfish. 4" to 3/4" mixed stone 12 feet long from shore to a depth of about 5-6 feet all around the pond. Its is about 12"s thick till the clay. The perch are eating the crayfish first when the new crop arrives in the spring. They will eat the less than 1" size and all the fish we harvest all have crayfish in them.

The first year with out crayfish we had allot of FA and fed about 150# of feed and every year after that the FA has been less and less. One thing could be that our fish were not eating the feed we were putting into the pond and now they are eating it all. It may be just that I was over feeding the fish and three years later the fish are eating all the feed with being bigger and more little ones eating the feed.

I do think the pond dye and keeping the air running at night keeps the pond cooler slowing the growth of FA too. The crayfish could be eating some but not as much as we did have.

I think the over feeding and water temp is the biggest factors.

Cheers Don.


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DonoBBD #461206 12/30/16 07:54 PM
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Originally Posted By: DonoBBD
Well one option and it is a slim one is lots and lots of crayfish. I have had now feed the same amount of feed over the past three years if not more this year. We had the least amount of FA in our pond this year then any year yet. We do have the most crayfish in our pond this past year then any year before.

We have the perfect habitat for crayfish. 4" to 3/4" mixed stone 12 feet long from shore to a depth of about 5-6 feet all around the pond. Its is about 12"s thick till the clay. The perch are eating the crayfish first when the new crop arrives in the spring. They will eat the less than 1" size and all the fish we harvest all have crayfish in them.

The first year with out crayfish we had allot of FA and fed about 150# of feed and every year after that the FA has been less and less. One thing could be that our fish were not eating the feed we were putting into the pond and now they are eating it all. It may be just that I was over feeding the fish and three years later the fish are eating all the feed with being bigger and more little ones eating the feed.

I do think the pond dye and keeping the air running at night keeps the pond cooler slowing the growth of FA too. The crayfish could be eating some but not as much as we did have.

I think the over feeding and water temp is the biggest factors.

Cheers Don.


Don,

I added papershell crayfish (PSC) this past spring into what should be good habitat of rip-rap and broken concrete slabs. Lots of predators thou so will have to wait and see if they survive, much less thrive. PSC are a small species and I'm wondering if there is a "good" crayfish species that gets a little bigger. Do you know what species of crayfish you have? How big do they get? Do they burrow into the shore much?


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Bill D. #461208 12/30/16 08:40 PM
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A bigger crayfish than papershell yet does little digging into pond banks is the Northern or Virle crayfish (Orconectes virilis aka lake crayfish) present and is the most common and widely distributed crayfish in IL. It is one of the biggest crayfish in Kansas. TJ had O.virile crayfish in one of his ponds and they became too abundant, to big for good fish predation and denuded the pond. Contact him for some of his experiences with northern crayfish.

IMO if the papershell are not maintaining a breeding population in your larger pond then the habitat is not conducive to PSC crayfish, similar to maintaining FHM in a pond. FHM can be maintain a breeding population in a pond if the habitat is correct.

If it were my situation. I would move a few papershell from your main pond when ever you catch them in traps into your new forage pond. Your forage species will tolerate the PSC and PSC will keep algae and plants minimized or barren in the forage pond. Then move abundant individuals from the forage pond back to the main pond.
http://naturenorth.com/fall/crayfish/Fcray2.html
https://nature.mdc.mo.gov/discover-nature/field-guide/northern-crayfish-virile-crayfish


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Bill Cody #461220 12/31/16 07:37 AM
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That is the species I believe is common to our small seasonal streams here in SE Ks. They can be found under rocks in shallow riffles.

They do love their vegetation. Wife arranged a bunch of wild creek plants in an aquarium we had set up with some local fingerling fish for the kids to observe over the summer (many years ago). Kids and I caught some crawdads and added them and they proceeded to dig up and destroy all my wifes work. Industrious little buggers.

Last edited by snrub; 12/31/16 07:51 AM.

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I am sure that the Northern crayfish are the ones I have in our pond too. They do some digging but nothing more then to live the winter like a toad would. With the 4" medium crushed concrete they are doing very well.

I do expect the walleye added should eat the larger crays if they get to big for the perch.


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Dono - I always maybe incorrectly assumed that you had papershell crayfish (PSC) as your main pond crayfish species. Let's try and figure out exactly which species thrives in your pond. Since you stocked hundreds of crayfish collected from your local stream you could have easily added two or maybe 3 different species depending on how many crayfish species inhabits your stream. Obviously one of them liked the conditions of your pond where it thrived. You could have 2 species of crayfish breeding in your perch pond.

If you have some good close pictures of the claw placed flat and a close picture of the nose (rostrum) shape and one of the carapace- back with seams middle area (areola) I should be able to produce a good species name. You may also have the clearwater crayfish?

Northern Cray in Ontario
http://www.pinicola.ca/crayfishontario/ovirilisacct.htm

Papershell in Ontario
http://www.pinicola.ca/crayfishontario/oimmunisacct.htm

Clear water cray
http://www.pinicola.ca/crayfishontario/opropinquusacct.htm

Crayfishes of Ontario
http://www.pinicola.ca/crayfishontario/craydentpage.htm

Last edited by Bill Cody; 12/31/16 07:42 PM.

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Originally Posted By: Bill Cody
A bigger crayfish than papershell yet does little digging into pond banks is the Northern or Virle crayfish (Orconectes virilis aka lake crayfish) present and is the most common and widely distributed crayfish in IL. It is one of the biggest crayfish in Kansas. TJ had O.virile crayfish in one of his ponds and they became too abundant, to big for good fish predation and denuded the pond. Contact him for some of his experiences with northern crayfish.

IMO if the papershell are not maintaining a breeding population in your larger pond then the habitat is not conducive to PSC crayfish, similar to maintaining FHM in a pond. FHM can be maintain a breeding population in a pond if the habitat is correct.

If it were my situation. I would move a few papershell from your main pond when ever you catch them in traps into your new forage pond. Your forage species will tolerate the PSC and PSC will keep algae and plants minimized or barren in the forage pond. Then move abundant individuals from the forage pond back to the main pond.
http://naturenorth.com/fall/crayfish/Fcray2.html
https://nature.mdc.mo.gov/discover-nature/field-guide/northern-crayfish-virile-crayfish


Thanks for the input Bill,

I think I found TJ's post you were referring too.

Originally Posted By: teehjaeh57
.....
YP/BG pond: This .25 acre pond used to serve as my SMB reproduction pond and was excavated to a depth of 9-10' 3 years ago for a female YP/male BG trophy fishery. Stocked with FHM, grass shrimp, Northern crayfish and implemented pellet program. I've experienced multiple issues on this fishery since the project started.

Iteration 1

The good: Created self sustaining population of FHM and crayfish. BG WR average 115 with some fish approaching 1.5#. Zero YP reproduction, sex ID successful.

The bad: On my first effort, crayfish population exploded and denuded the pond of all vegetation and algae and pond became turbid with visibility reduced to 12-18". No predators present with gape to utilize adult crayfish as forage and could not keep up with reproduction. ....


So maybe Northern crays would work in my pond as I have predators with sufficient mouth gap?

I like the idea of raising PSC in a forage pond and then moving them to the main pond. I currently don't have a forage pond but now maybe I have a little more justification to build a small one. smile

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