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Forage pond is finally done and almost to the first fill stage. I am looking for a source for PK shrimp and Lake Chubsuckers. There will be no predators in the pond and the only vegetation in the pond MIGHT be corkscrew Val.

I will drive to pick stuff up if shipping is not available or practical for the cost.

Any help is greatly appreciated.


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Thanks. Forgot about Zimmermans. Never transferred my favorites from IE to Chrome.


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If there has been any progress on sourcing PK shrimp. please share.

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Thank you - Do you have an email for them?

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I strongly suspect this person was sourcing them via Fattig...


Many men go fishing all of their lives without knowing that it is not fish they are after. ~ Henry David Thoreau

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I am guessing that the business opportunity is too small to interest most, especially with the likely bureaucracy involved. This is too bad since it now appears to be far less common than it was originally in the wild, but maybe I am mistaken.

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Did you verify if the supplier actually has the shrimp and that they are the species being claimed?

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They are me, so yes. Pk is the only species native or naturalized in this area

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Perhaps posting a high res photo would help some of the experts here make a positive ID?

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Those look a lot like PK shrimp that I am familiar with. Chances are very high they are PK shrimp. It is very doubtful that those pictured and surviving in his winter chilly pond are the more tropical species sold in pet shops. We have to assume they have a gene pool tolerant of northern winters. Remember one has to have correct habitat for them to thrive in a sportfish pond. Correct habitat means - weedy, that provides lots of cover as a refuge from predation by mostly panfish.


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Thanks Bill - No ice yet on small ground-water fed pond!

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More notes about PK shrimp (Palaemonetes kadiakensis, also P.kadiakensis). There are 3 species of grass shrimp that superficially look like PK: P.pugio(41-100F), P.vulgaris & P.paludosus (41F-95F). Reported lethal temperature range for the species is in ( ). There is probably a good reason that these other 3 species have not expanded their distribution range into the North Central US and the reason could be due cold tolerence. I could not find the lower lethal temperature for PK. Close examination of specific body structures separate these 4 species.

Grass shrimp are reported to often retreat to the sediment zone or area during winter. Often this is probably due to lack of small leafy plant habitat during winter. This winter behavior could make them very vulnerable to panfish predation especially if the pond has an abundance of panfish. Water temperature of the sediment zone can be 40-41F depending on various pond conditions. My experience with PK shrimp is they will live in a winter aerated pond where the majority of the water column temperature can be 36F-39F. The less the pond is aerated during winter the closer the water column temperature will be to 39F. Mississippi Rv water temperature during Jan or Feb could be 33-34F for the first study below.

Advanced reading:
Upper Mississippi Study - Ohio Shrimp and PK shrimp.
http://www.umesc.usgs.gov/field_stations/fs5/staff/amn_shrimp.pdf
P.pugio
http://www.amnh.org/learn-teach/young-na...aemonetes-pugio

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Originally Posted By: ryjohn
I made a post here yesterday regarding where Pk shrimp could be purchased and at first did not understand why it was deleted. Reading the forum rules did not seem to provide an explanation, but I have found other posts by moderators since then that seem to indicate that only "registered vendors" can be promoted. So it is possible many potential sources have been posted to these type threads over the years have been deleted because they are not sponsors of the magazine or forum.


Hi Ryjohn:

Welcome to the forum. Your hunch is correct - only registered advertisers are allowed to market on the forum. Approved and registered advertisers help allow the Pond Boss forum to exist free to all who need help. As an approved advertiser and forum volunteer myself, I feel those rules are important to follow. If you are interested in marketing please contact the Pond Boss HQ and they can walk you through the process. Until that's occurred I'd appreciate the marketing, even indirectly or latent, to cease so further action isn't warranted. Your knowledge is important and welcome here, but there's a right way to do things. Thanks!



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Interesting articles. P. vulgaris is mentioned there as not tolerating low salinity, and P. pugio is listed as tolerating a wide range of salinities. That said, I have a hard time believing the P. vulgaris and P. pugio species that live in the Chesapeake Bay are the same ones native (or established) to land-locked bodies of (extremly soft) surface water in 32 miles from the Arkansas border.

A good test seemingly would be placing them in and insulated minnow bucket in a refrigerator set below 41, and slowly letting it reduce the temperature of the water of Pk shrimp. I am curious about their behavior. On multiple occasions I've had mine stay viable that way for a week+ before (for bait), and then once this past summer they seemed to not take it as well (died or laid dormant on their sides). It may be the time of the year and acclimation is important, or that the water was chilled too quickly (may not have used an insulated bucket). Stocking density or oxygen content was not controlled so that may have played a part as well. For that matter I have not verified the refrigerator temperature either...

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FYI driving native PK Shrimp from LA to MI is likely violating several state regulations without importation permits from all states. Interstate fish transfer/sales is strictly regulated and every state varies...they likely have eyes on this forum, too.


Many men go fishing all of their lives without knowing that it is not fish they are after. ~ Henry David Thoreau

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Originally Posted By: teehjaeh57
Originally Posted By: ryjohn
I made a post here yesterday regarding where Pk shrimp could be purchased and at first did not understand why it was deleted. Reading the forum rules did not seem to provide an explanation, but I have found other posts by moderators since then that seem to indicate that only "registered vendors" can be promoted. So it is possible many potential sources have been posted to these type threads over the years have been deleted because they are not sponsors of the magazine or forum.


Hi Ryjohn:

Welcome to the forum. Your hunch is correct - only registered advertisers are allowed to market on the forum. Approved and registered advertisers help allow the Pond Boss forum to exist for free. If you are interested in marketing please contact the Pond Boss HQ and they can walk you through the process. Thanks!



The problem is there is such a small market for some pond products that it impossible to have any sort of advertising budget. I am not really in business anything beyond trying to defray the costs of my own pond hobby... as in a 4-order per year type goal

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Originally Posted By: teehjaeh57
FYI driving native PK Shrimp from LA to MI is likely violating several state regulations without importation permits from all states. Interstate fish transfer/sales is strictly regulated and every state varies...they likely have eyes on this forum, too.


No doubt you are right. "In commerce" is the trigger for many such laws (unless noxious or protected species) whereas free sharing is much more loosely regulated in many cases. Louisiana is a surprisingly open state but that goes out the window when you cross state lines. A simple fishing license even allows you to sell a certain limit of reptiles and amphibians into the pet trade each day, if I read correctly


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Ryjohn, I figure I can either have a Corvette, a couple of women on the side or the ponds. The ponds are only slightly less expensive.


It's not about the fish. It's about the pond. Take care of the pond and the fish will be fine. PB subscriber since before it was in color.

Without a sense of urgency, Nothing ever gets done.

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Originally Posted By: Dave Davidson1
Ryjohn, I figure I can either have a Corvette, a couple of women on the side or the ponds. The ponds are only slightly less expensive.


Yeah... am working on paying off my house now on the Dave Ramsey plan, and with my wife buying in to go back to work until that is done, she wouldn't appreciate spending on any of those three!

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Originally Posted By: Dave Davidson1
Ryjohn, I figure I can either have a Corvette, a couple of women on the side or the ponds. The ponds are only slightly less expensive.


I would like to see the accounting numbers on that. I'm not sure you figured right.


John

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BTW, the first 2 scenarios include legal fees.


It's not about the fish. It's about the pond. Take care of the pond and the fish will be fine. PB subscriber since before it was in color.

Without a sense of urgency, Nothing ever gets done.

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ryjohn - Good idea of checking the lower limit temperature of PK shrimp by putting them in the refrigerator or iced water and monitoring the correct temperature. I will try that for my PK shrimp next year. My strain of PK shrimp came from Lake Erie marshland. The northern population may have developed an adaptation to cooler winter waters than those shrimp in the southern states?

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Bill - Do you think that hard groundwater might be a problem for the PK shrimp? I think the pH is about 7.5

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Originally Posted By: Bill Cody
ryjohn - Good idea of checking the lower limit temperature of PK shrimp by putting them in the refrigerator or iced water and monitoring the correct temperature. I will try that for my PK shrimp next year. My strain of PK shrimp came from Lake Erie marshland. The northern population may have developed an adaptation to cooler winter waters than those shrimp in the southern states?


I'm curious what kind of catch density you had working those marshes. I use a finer mesh long-handled landing net here and best passes under the best weed matts here yield between 50 and 100 per swipe of the net. Average is probably more like 15-25 during Spring and early summer... it gets alot tougher this time of year, though.

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My catches in the adjacent pond to the marsh would produce 10-20 each net sweep during a mid September sampling. Longer sweeps resulted in more shrimp per netting attempt.The pond contained lots of coontail.

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Hopefully, algae and eel grass will be enough without fish present. My biggest worry is a shock due to different water chemistry. Not sure what hard slightly basic water might do to PK's coming from softer acidic water?

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PK will thrive in eel grass - my experience. If you get PK from soft water just temper them by slowly adding your pond water (1 qt at a time every several minutes) to the water the shrimp are in. Maybe transfer the receiving shrimp to a larger bucket for the tempering. This should also temper the water temperature.

Coontail does have benefits but I am not use the few benefits outweigh all the negatives.

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I did the gradual transfer, but it was late so I only did it quickly over only 45 minutes. I am hopeful that going from warmer to colder water was less harmful than the opposite. I have more concern about pH and alkalinity. I will report back when I know more. For me, it is worth the risk of failure. I think cold introduction might be less stressful than during the warm season. The pond is completely open now that things warmed up a bit. Your comments give me greater hope that these are PK shrimp. I really love this stuff!

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Your tempering introduction could have lasted overnight and into the next day. Grass shrimp do not consume large amounts of DO per individual compared to fish.


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I know that I rushed it. I am a morning person. Hopefully at least one pair will make it and start a population. If not, maybe my conditions are not conducive to a sustainable population for me.

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Since you have no predators in that small pond and if those southern acclimated shrimp can tolerate your IL winter water temps then surely some will survive to reproduce even in reduced habitat conditions. Predation after they hatch and then 1 year before they spawn causes a very high mortality esp when habitat is minimal or limited.


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Since you have no predators in that small pond and if those southern acclimated shrimp can tolerate your IL winter water temps then surely some will survive to reproduce even in reduced habitat conditions. Predation after they hatch and then 1 year before they spawn causes a very high mortality esp when habitat is minimal or limited.


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Central Indiana and moderated temps from groundwater, so maybe less of a thermal shock? I think that if I get an initial late spring spawn, I might be good? I am more worried about getting an initial spawn from the stockers. I do have plenty of algae right now growing on branches that I added a while back. Time will tell...

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In the upper Midwest most female shrimp are gravid in June with lots of tiny hatched shrimp in July. Most hatchlings are close to adult size by the end of September. More growth will occur in spring as the shrimp mature toward the June gravid period.


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I guess that I will know how things work out in a couple years.

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If the stocking is successful and your fish do not eat all the offspring, you should be able to catch some YOY grass shrimp in some net sweeps among close to shore weeds during Sept-Oct 2017. Note these shrimp will be about 3/4"-1" body length; not mature and not full grown.

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There are no fish are in this pond and I do not plan to add any fish until I have sustaining populations in additional ponds or wetlands (at least several years).

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speaking of PK shrimp,
I saw 2 very unique lures when doing a image search for something else. Has anyone tried a lure that looks like a PK shrimp like in the picture below?

I also loved the lure that looked like multiple GSH or other baitfish stacked tightly together. That was a pretty brilliant design.

baitball lures

soft shrimp

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Ryjohn is about a two hr drive to Monroe,and so I am not around that part of La very often. But I can say there are a lot of grass shrimp in lakes around here and one can catch them just like the way he described here. A bait shop also sells them here certain times of the year. I gave up trying to grow them until some veggies are growing in the pond. RAH, good luck with your project.


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Thank you for the well wishes. The pond is warm enough that water beetles and backswimmers were moving about in the water yesterday. No PK's seen though, but the pond is 8-10' deep.

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PK shrimp are sort of secretive and skittish. It is difficult to see them along shore especially if one is standing up. I only net mine by running a sweep net through some close to shore plants. I think there has to be pretty high numbers of them before you will consistently catch a few in a net sweep.


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I'll try netting next fall and see what shows up. Hopefully they will breed like our local coyotes!

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Any updates for us RAH?

You were concerned about water hardness, ph, what are your water quality parameters? Do your PK shrimp like it there? escaping predation and what grasses or weeds do they like? How do you sample them?

Thanks

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No evidence that they survived. The water is hard (from an artesian well). The small pool also got invaded by GFS, but there are lots of plants to hide in.

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GSF are ravenous on anything as small food items. GSF can significantly limit survival of fish fry, If your PK do not create a reproducing population blame the GSF as predators.


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That is why I mentioned the GSF. The little pond is above a shallow duck pond that has GSF due to flooding events from a nearby stream. Guessing that they made it up to the artesian pond during a period of heavy rain when the overflow was running a bit heavier than normal. I did add a single LMB in the hopes that it would eat the GSF, but never saw it again. This little pond is only about 25' in diameter, but was dug 8, deep in the center.

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RAH,

That is a nice little pond that you have created. Have you considered draining and starting over?

You might be able to pick a time to drain this summer when it would have minimal impact on all of the wildlife utilizing that pond. You could then re-start the pond with the ecology of your choice. You might only get 2-3 years before the next high-water event that puts GSF into the pond, but you could have established PK and a few larger LMB by then that could have a chance of extirpating a few invasive GSF.

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Scooped a tractor bucket of water from pond to water newly planted trees and found hundreds of ghost shrimp swimming in it had to dump it back in pond….. I like my shrimp… guess the abundance of weed (slender spikerush )is good for something. Lots of the shrimp were carrying eggs

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Originally Posted by Pat Williamson
Scooped a tractor bucket of water from pond to water newly planted trees and found hundreds of ghost shrimp swimming in it had to dump it back in pond….. I like my shrimp… guess the abundance of weed is good for something. Lots of the shrimp were carrying eggs

I had not heard of the "FEL" technique to sample the populations of ghost shrimp in a pond. I learn something new at Pond Boss every time I log in! grin

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I have a brand new pond with just FHM in it right now, and the duck ponds are weed choked, so if I get another shot at PK shrimp, I'll try those.

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PK shrimp should survive in a fishless pond and IMO they should survive well in a FHM pond especially if the FHM pond has some structure algae or shallow vegetation shoreline plants. Over crowded FHM might prevent PK shrimp from thriving. PK shrimp might not survive well in a pond with abundant shiners because shiners have a larger mouth to eat larger hatchling - young PK shrimp.


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Pond has no plants, algae, or structure yet, but has a large wetland attached which should grow lots of plants. Pond was just finished last fall. Is there now a commercial supplier of PK shrimp for Indiana?

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