Pond Boss Forums STOCKING A NEW POND Types of fish to choose Smallmouth bass in new pond?

Actually both Yolk and I recommended HBG as additional lepomis species in our posts - they are a good potential companion species in limited gape fisheries.

HBG will reproduce, however offspring (like their parents) are heavily skewed towards males, anywhere from 70-95%+ by most studies depending on sex of parentage. Therefore their population are easier to manage than pure BG.

If you want to verify presence of crayfish population, bait minnow cage with food or meat scraps and place in 1-3' depths. I'd wager within 3-4 days you'll see crays - if not, move traps to new location and repeat. I often don't need to bait cray traps as tadpoles will naturally enter cage and die over time, attracting crays - it's a self baiting system, but your situation may be different.

To survey grass shrimp, take a long handled net with 3/8" mesh or smaller and run along shoreline in 1-3' depths walking along the shore. This time of year they are shallow in warmest water possible. If you have vegetation, they'll be sometimes in 1-2" depths just run the net right through the vegetation. Mine are shallow pond wide even without presence of vegetation this is the best time of year to sample them in my experience.

Certainly can't argue with cautious approach to what sounds like a great situation already.

Adding HBG actually will expand your forage base somewhat, they will spawn, though with much less efficiency than BG. Each successive generation will have more and more characteristics of pure GSF, in my experience. That's what I meant about being able to add them without causing a major perturbation in a pond that already has GSF; your risks are pretty negligible.

Thanks TJ.. I'll give it a try.

No bobber, it will slowly sink ,clear line helps if your water is clear... cast and let it fall slowly, they usually hit it on the fall (hang on, set drag ) . If no luck, let it sit on bottom for a bit and repeat. They will bite on the bottom as well. Low light conditions help but not a deal breaker if not.

+1

I discovered the magic of chicken liver as HSB bait a couple years back when fishing for CC. The liver seldom reaches the bottom before the strike.

+1

I have a small pond (with SMB and BG) and IMO it is way easier to manage than a larger one would be. Small changes by adding to your predator base and/or removing a few by angling can make adjustments to the pond balance way easier than in a larger pond. In addition to what Yolksac said, if you think you have too much recruitment from your BG you can always add a few more SMB or WE or YP (yes they eat small BG) or .....

IMO starting with SMB and BG just means you might end up with a more diverse pond than originally planned...never know what you will catch when you toss in a line!

Thanks. So in you guys opinion is it too early to be putting in SMB or HSB? Or the sooner the better to control any spawning by the BG that take place in the spring?

I'd definitely avoid the HSB for now, until your forage base is built up; you can add them in the spring anytime you want.
With that in mind, if you stocked the GS and FHM heavily, and your BG were of a size to prevent predation right now, I would stock a few smallies this fall, perhaps 10. If they grow a bit over the winter, and have a good spring surge, depending on the size you stock they might be able to pull off a spawn next summer. This would be highly desirable in getting off to a good start controlling BG populations. I'm probably in the minority in this opinion, but I would even consider adding a few larger, wild caught fish, perhaps 8-10", for the same reason. There is always the possibility of bringing in a disease, or invasive plant, so keep this in mind.

Need to address this post as it relates to BG population management and nudge it in the right direction. Based on my experience over the past several years and other cool water species fishery managers, predator density can serve as a BG population management tool as has been discussed, but since BG over 5" are virtually invulnerable to predation of limited gape predators, predator density/additional predator stocking is not a simple solution. The problem is that once BG attain this size they cannot be utilized as forage by SMB/YP/WE/HSB except by an exceptional fish. I'm not confident you'll be growing any 25"+ HSB or 18"+ SMB in a half acre pond, and certainly not if you have dense predator populations. Further, considering the small sized pond, one cannot simply continue to stock predator species as we're facing a limited carrying capacity in .5 acres. If one were to employ a solution only focusing on dense predator population, the BG 1-3" will be extirpated and you'll still be left with an overpopulation of BG in the 5-6" range not to mention likely low WR predators [slow growing skinny SMB, YP, HSB] as there's a lack of appropriate sized forage. This is exactly the scenario about which Cody, Yolk and I have been warning everyone. The solution to BG population management in a limited gape fishery is not predator density alone - it's an element of the solution, maybe, but it's not that easy - especially in a small pond with limited carrying capacity.

Bill D, what size is your pond again? I forget.

Do you have to consider carrying capacity when adding predators? How many BG per surface acre should be removed by angling per year? Does sex of the BG removed make a difference?

Esshup,

Very interesting discussion.

Our pond is a water table pond that varies from .35 to .6 acres.

IMO of course you have to consider carrying capacity. I try for 100 to 150 pounds for my little puddle That’s one reason I posted you may need to harvest predators if the conditions warrant it, for example, signs the predators are over eating their forage base. I admit TJ’s example above where all the 1 to 3 inch BG are being extirpated but yet the pond is filling with 5 to 6 inch BG has me scratching my head. If the BG never make it past 3 inches then where are all those 5 to 6 inch BG coming from? IMHO you would want most of the 1 to 3 inch to be consumed with what few recruits that make it through being your future brood stock and your BG for angling/harvest. If you have too many 5 to 6 inch BG then maybe reach into your management tool box and consider adding a few large gap predators like single sex LMB as bonus catches.

With respect to how many BG should be harvested per year, IMHO, it depends. Using TJ’s example of all 1 to 3 inch BG disappearing, maybe you harvest no BG and harvest a few predators in an effort to get BG recruitment to your goal. IMO selectively harvesting male of female BG is a neat management tool although I’m not sure I could reliably identify male from female until they get pretty big (except maybe prespawn when the females are gravid).

My point was that with a small BOW removing/adding relatively small numbers of predators can significantly alter the pond dynamics where in large BOWs it is much more difficult.

I don’t mean to suggest it is easy or that we will necessarily get the outcome we are hoping to achieve. For example, if we add YP to the SMB and BG pond, they will undoubtedly target small BG but they will probably also draw the attention of the SMB away from BG as forage in lieu of the more fusiform YP forage. So what would be the net effect on the BG population of adding YP to the mix? Would the YP feed on the SMB spawn and effectively help manage the SMB population?

My extensive experience with YP is YP are comparatively poor predators of BG. Plus in a BG based pond, what little predation pressure they provide is limited to slow swimming very small BG.

Small post-fry BG habitate shallow areas not normally frequented by YP (4"-8"). Plus importantly, the smaller your predominate YP are, the smaller BG they are able to catch and eat. Extensive research indicates that handling time and prey size are very important to predators targeting fish. Pond perch are not aggressive behavior type predators that capture active, normal swimming sunfish such as 1" to 1.5" BG. Try catching some 1"-1.5" long BG with a sweep net to get an idea of how fast small BG can swim. As a result YP in BG based fisheries exhibit relatively poor growth rates (less than average) and the YP are forced to alternatively feed primarily on invertebrates that are usually quite limited and sparse in a BG based community.

Just a note to Bill's comment. In cool water (up north)YP will eat a lot of small BG (< 3 inches) when the water cools as their metabolism is still high when the BG's start to slow. Easy pickings for the YP. Several studies on this. YP are no where near the best predator to control BG as SMB , WE , HSB and LMB can do the same thing on a larger scale. LMB not so much when the water cools as their metabolism is close to that of BG. There are non predator methods of reducing BG as well. Neither YP , SMB or HSB will alone in normal numbers control BG up north and there is doubt if LMB can either if the BG get a big head start on them. You will have to manage the populations by various methods but that is why you have a pond in the first place.

I have a client that is just starting to stock his 3 - 3 1/2 acre pond. He wants to have SMB as the main focus of the fishery, so we are going the YP/RES/FHM/GSH route. He wants crappie and that will be a possibility a few years down the road with Hybrid Crappie. We are also adding some HBG to the mix early, and don't plan on restocking them. This pond will be stocked with as many species of feed trained fish as are available, and there will be 2-3 feeders on the pond from day 1 of stocking.

The concerns are that regular northern BG will not be controlled by the SMB, and if LMB are added to the pond to control them, then the SMB fishery will go away after 5+ years. Finding advanced sized SMB that are feed trained and are large enough to avoid predation by 5+ pound LMB isn't easy or inexpensive.........

The pond is designed to have minimal spawning areas for the BG, but still there's the chance that they WILL reproduce in numbers that can't be controlled.

BillD. - you advised to stock additional predators to handle BG population issue. The stunted 5" fish are already in the pond given your scenario: BG population issue - that's the impetus to stock more predators! These are slow growing adults - and a few will continue to run the gauntlet, and are anywhere from age 3-9. It's a bottleneck situation, just like LMB can do at 8-10" or 12-14", etc. Since these 5" BG aren't vulnerable to predation, their population stacks year after year with no management - bottle necked at that size range. That's 5-6 years worth of BG, all stunted into the same size range, tying up biomass and utilizing forage which could benefit desirable species. That's what the predator density solution will render - one cannot just stock more predators, it's not that simple, and that's why this solution alone isn't going to be effective. Further, all those predators now densely stocked have no forage and WR drops so you have zero quality fishing for any species. That's the scenario we're trying to help the forum avoid - through direct experience. The solutions are complex and depend on multiple variables.

So, we're back to the original advice: Managing BG population in a limited gape fishery requires significant management through angling, trapping, seining, etc. in order to be truly successful as a higher quality fishery. Stocking additional predators in my experience can have an impact on the population, but it will also tax your pond resources and can result in low WR predators as well. Doubt that is the goal for any fishery.

Be on the lookout for an upcoming PB mag article (not next issue but the following)on asking and answering the right question. You have to see the forest first and then each tree. It is not always best to fixate on a symptom and address it but is better to understand the big picture and ask "why". Good work TJ ! Its not always about managing the put and take but rather what is going on and why. Keep in mind that in most non-heavily managed waters the biggest problem is not enough food - that is hard to manage on an ongoing basis with just harvest restrictions/adding forage programs. First ask is the goal realistic and if yes then how.

TJ,

I apologize for any confusion. Actually, I think we are pretty much on the same page. The pond has to be actively managed for all aspects. If you check back to my posts you’ll see I actually said some predators need to be removed if they start to overeat their forage (so no stunted predator population) and also said that excess BG that make it to recruitment also need to be removed to control their numbers (so no stunted BG population). I believe that agrees with what you are saying. My thought about adjusting type and number of predators is this should help keep the number of BG that grow to recruits at a more manageable number. Maybe not. My point is that it should be much easier to impact pond dynamics of a small pond by adjusting type and number of predator and thru harvest than it would be with a large pond. If that is true, then perhaps small pond owners may have more species combination options that are not available with larger BOWs.

Anyway, thanks for taking the time to try and educate this newbie. I guess I will move ahead with my strategy(so far so good moving into year 4) but will definitely take your advice to heart. It is much appreciated! Who knows, maybe I will learn something of value I can share with the forum. Another advantage of a small pond is it is way easier to nuc and start over!

Mitch,

Sorry for hijacking your thread! To answer your question, IMHO SMB can be hard to find in the spring. I would stock a few now if you have a source. I don't know about HSB.

Bill D.