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We get lots of questions on Centrarchid Fishes (sunfish including lepomis (BG , RES, GSF et al) , crappie and bass), crosses (hybrids) , id and genetics. So this thread will contain info from various sources including links to prior threads. Here is a start.

An excellent book for reference

Centrarchid Fishes
Diversity, Biology, and Conservation

This edition first published 2009
Blackwell Publishing Ltd.

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/book/10.1002/9781444316032

An outstanding into on the subject in Chpt 2 by D I Bolnick

Read this for the correct approach on the questions frequently asked.










This is one of the early studies on sunfish crosses. The text link has the data.

Hybridization of Four Species of Sunfishes (Centrarchidae)
WILLIAM F. CHILDERS

http://www.nativefishlab.net/library/textpdf/16131.pdf

Lepomini hybrids known to occur in nature.


Kind of Hybrid
Warmouth x Pumpkinseed
Warmouth x Redbreast sunfish
Warmouth x Green sunfish
Warmouth x Bluegill
Green sunfish x Bluegill
Green sunfish x Pumpkinseed
Green sunfish x Longear sunfish
Green sunfish x Redbreast sunfish
Green sunfish x Red-ear sunfish
Green sunfish x Orangespotted sunfish
Bluegill x Red-ear sunfish
Bluegill x Pumpkinseed
Bluegill x Orangespotted sunfish
Bluegill x Longear sunfish
Bluegill x Redbreast sunfish
Pumpkinseed x Orangespotted sunfish
Pumpkinseed x Redbreast sunfish
Pumpkinseed x Longear sunfish
Longear sunfish x Orangespotted sunfish
Warmouth x Red-ear sunfish
Bluegill x Spotted sunfish
'Contains no description. 'Contains description.



References
Radcliffe ( 1914:27) 2
McAtee & Weed ( 1915:13 )1
McAtee & Weed (1915:13)1
Hubbs (1920:102) 2
Bailey & Lagler (1938:588-604 ) 2
Bailey & Lagler (1938:588-604 ) 2
Cross & Moore ( 1952:410-411 )2
Raney ( 1940:364 )1
Trautman (1957:501)1
Hubbs & Ortenburger ( 1929:42)1
Cross & Moore (1952:411) 2
Bailey & Lagler ( 1938:588-604 ) 2
Cross & Moore ( 1952:411 ) 2
Cross & Moore ( 1952:411 )2
Bailey & Lagler ( 1938:577)1
O'Donnell ( 1953:487 )1
Greeley & Bishop ( 1933:101 )1
Hubbs (1926:72)1
O'Donnell (1935:487)l
Childers ( unpublished)
Stinauer & Childers (unpublished)


Here are the sex ratios (percent male) that Childers got with various hybrid crosses. The male parent is listed first. There is some variation in the numbers from other studies

Redear X Bluegill 97 (3)
Bluegill X Redear 97
Redear X Green 69
Green X Redear 48
Bluegill X Green 97
Green X Bluegill 68 (2)
Redear X Warmouth 55
Bluegill X Warmouth 69 (2)
Green X Warmouth 16
Warmouth X Green 84


TEMPO OF HYBRID INVIABILITY IN CENTRARCHID FISHES

(TELEOSTEI: CENTRARCHIDAE)

DANIEL I. BOLNICK AND THOMAS J. NEAR


the larger species tends to be

the more successful maternal parent




" The only crosses with total inviability in
both directions are M. salmoides 3 (Ambloplites rupestrus,
Pomoxis annularis, or Pomoxis nigromaculatus) at 28.94 million
years, while 10 other crosses of that age have some
viability in one or both reciprocal directions (see online Appendix).
Centrarchids also retain nonzero viability and heterosis
for much longer than most other taxa."








Threads
http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=355888&page=1



Last edited by ewest; 08/21/17 09:32 AM.















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Plasticity and genetics

One of several threads - http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.ph...true#Post130058

By Dave Willis - “I do realize that we are getting pretty darn in-depth. However, those who are interested, take a look at this!

Foraging performance of diet-induced morphotypes in pumpkinseed sunfish (Lepomis gibbosus) favours resource polymorphism.

Research Paper

Journal of Evolutionary Biology. 20(2):673-684, March 2007.
PARSONS, K. J.; ROBINSON, B. W.
Abstract:
Morphological plasticity can influence adaptive divergence when it affects fitness components such as foraging performance. We induced morphological variation in pumpkinseed sunfish (Lepomis gibbosus) ecomorphs and tested for effects on foraging performance. Young-of-year pumpkinseed sunfish from littoral and pelagic lake habitats were reared each on a 'specialist diet' representing their native habitat-specific prey, or a 'generalist diet' reflecting a combination of native and non-native prey. Specialist and generalist diets, respectively, induced divergent and intermediate body forms. Specialists had the highest capture success on their native prey whereas generalist forms were inferior. Specialists faced trade-offs across prey types. However, pelagic specialists also had the highest intake rate on both prey types suggesting that foraging trade-offs are relaxed when prey are abundant. This increases the likelihood of a resource polymorphism because the specialized pelagic form can be favoured by directional selection when prey are abundant and by diversifying selection when prey resources are restricted.”
-----------------------------------------------------------

By Bill Cody – “Plasticity, variation, and adaptability of species promotes success and survial.” “The red shiner (C. lutrensis) ranges from Minnesota to the Gulf Coast in creeks and small rivers over sand, rock and gravel, in runs and pools. It spawns in rock and log crevices, at the base of plants, among algal masses and elsewhere. This plasticity in spawning sites; feeding habits; wide use as a baitfish; and tolerance of turbid to clear, fast or slow, warm to cold waters all account for its wide distribution, and threat to other native fish.”

-----------------------------------------------------------

A look at YP from several locations shows a good bit of local variation. As you know (for others who may not) all fish species that I know of exhibit local adaptation which may be visual (how the fish looks) or it may not be visual but rather be any of a hundred other functions. Over very long periods of time in seperate populations the local adaptation can become genetic . It is call Phenotypic plasticity which is the ability of an organism to change its phenotype in response to changes in the environment. Such plasticity in some cases expresses as several highly morphologically distinct results; in other cases, a continuous norm of reaction describes the functional interrelationship of a range of environments to a range of phenotypes (see Wiki ). Common examples are seen in Fla LMB and CNBG vs regular BG and LMB. In some instances new species are formed. In many other instances they go into the ash bend of extinction.

From Wiki - Adaptation refers to both the current state of being adapted and to the dynamic evolutionary process that leads to the adaptation. Adaptations contribute to the fitness and survival of individuals. Organisms face a succession of environmental challenges as they grow and develop and are equipped with an adaptive plasticity as the phenotype of traits develop in response to the imposed conditions

Local adaptation and plasticity can and often do effect what a fish looks like and what traits are outstanding.



Phenotypic plasticity is the ability of an organism to change its phenotype in response to changes in the environment. Fundamental to the way in which organisms cope with environmental variation, phenotypic plasticity encompasses all types of environmentally induced changes (e.g. morphological, physiological, behavioral, phenological) that may or may not be permanent throughout an individual’s lifespan. The term was originally used to describe developmental effects on morphological characters, but is now more broadly used to describe all phenotypic responses to environmental change, such as acclimation or acclimatization, as well as learning.

Evolution of phenotypic plasticity
Plasticity is usually thought to be an evolutionary adaptation to environmental variation that is reasonably predictable and occurs within the lifespan of an individual organism, as it allows individuals to ‘fit’ their phenotype to different environments. If the optimal phenotype in a given environment changes with environmental conditions, then the ability of individuals to express different traits should be advantageous and thus selected for. Hence, phenotypic plasticity can evolve if Darwinian fitness is increased by changing phenotype . However, the fitness benefits of plasticity can be limited by the energetic costs of plastic responses (e.g. synthesizing new proteins, adjusting expression ratio of isozyme variants, maintaining sensory machinery to detect changes) as well as the predictability and reliability of environmental cues (see Beneficial acclimation hypothesis).

These results show that the natural variation in

pharyngeal morphology between these populations of pumpkinseeds is primarily the result of a

plastic response to the environment, rather than a response to selection driven by the environmental

differences.
Thus, although our results provide no evidence of a genetic basis for variation in functional

morphology, the observed phenotypic plasticity represents an important mechanism

that can mould a fish’s morphology to the resource base of a lake. Ultimately, this would be

most adaptive if reduced crushing morphology resulted in the more efficient use of softbodied

prey. To date, we have no evidence for such a trade-off in pumpkinseed, although

work on its sister species, the redear sunfish, has shown that such a trade-off exists (Huckins,

1997; see also Ehlinger, 1990; Schluter, 1995; Robinson et al., 1996, for other examples

of trade-offs).


Here is a part from a prior Cutting Edge article on BG adaptation. Never underestimate the effect of local adaptation on a population.

In the Shoup et al study eight experimental 0.4-ha ponds (one acre with a mean depth of 1m) were used to evaluate the effects of habitat complexity on growth of small bluegill. Each pond was stocked with 15 kg of young-of-year bluegills (30–50 mm total length, approximately 20,000 fish per pond) to produce a realistic density for small ponds. The ponds contained varying amounts of vegetation (plants) and no predators.


The result was - by the end of the experiment, bluegill from the low vegetation treatment ponds were significantly longer – twenty (20%) percent than bluegill from the high vegetation treatment ponds.


..... addressed in more detail is phenotypic plasticity. That is the ability of an individual or population to change due to environmental influences. Can environmental conditions during early development shape individuals’ phenotypes so they become more adaptive to the conditions they encounter? Were the long bluegill that fed in open water that way because longer fish can swim better in open water and were the shorter bluegill that way because being short allows them to maneuver around the weeds better? Plasticity has been shown to effect sunfish (Lepomis) shape, feeding and behavior in some cases.




Tramactions of the American Fisheries Society 109:108-115, 1980

¸ Copyright by the American Fisheries Society 1980

Genetic and Morphological Variation of Bluegill

Populations in Florida Lakes

JAMES D. FELLEY

Department of Zoology, University of Oklahoma

Norman, Oklahoma 73019

JOHN C. AVISE

Department of Zoology, University of Georgia

Athens, Georgia 30602

Abstract

The structure of bluegill (Lepomis macrochirus) populations in natural Florida lakes was assessed

from clcctromorphic and morphologicharacters. Elcctrophorctically assaycd allclc frequencies

arc homogeneous within lakes and heterogeneous among lakes. Populations in two adjacent

lakes connected by a short river arc nearly identical. Several considerations indicate that cvcn

young-of-the-year bluegills arc well mixed within subpopulations of these lakes, and that indi-

vidual dispersal is important in maintaining intcrsubpopulation homogcncity in allclc frequency.

This pattern of genetic differentiation contrasts with the pattern of hctcrogcncity observed in

mcristic counts for several morphological traits. At the microgeographic level, genetic homo-

gcncity probably reflects a long-term history of bluegill movements within a lake, while within-

lake morphological hcterogcncity reflects the varied conditions during individual development

to which incompletely isolated subpopulations are exposed.

The genetic homogeneity observed within

lakes is not reflected in the morphological char-

acteristics (Fig. 2). Hagen (1973) found high

heritabilities for meristics traits but noted that

heritability can only be defined for given envi-

ronmental conditions. Meristic traits are influ-

enced during embryonic development by such

environmental variables as temperature, CO2

concentration, salinity, and pH (T•ning 1952;

Barlow 1961; Fowler 1970). The variation in

locality means for these meristic traits may thus

be evidence of the environmental conditions,

varying temporally and microgeographically, to

which the developing fish were subjected. Thus

we can envision the possibility of a lake con-

sisting of/a patchwork of environmental con-

ditions influencing developmentally plastic

traits. Between-locality heterogeneity in such

morphological characters would then be regen-

erated in each generation, while the between-

locality homogeneity in genetic composition re-

flects effects of a long-term history of bluegill

movement within a lake.

On a broader perspective, all bluegills in the

Florida lakes are similar to one another, both

morphologically and genetically. Their meristic

counts and genotype frequencies are character-

istic of the Florida bluegill subspecies, and are

very distinct from bluegills from Georgia and

South Carolina to Texas (Avise and Smith

1974; Felley, in press). At the macrogeographic

level, there is a clear correspondence between

morphology and genetics. At the microgeo-

graphic level, genetic homogeneity may reflect

the long-term history of bluegill movement

within a lake, while morphological heteroge-

neity reflects the varied developmental condi-

tions to which individuals in incompletely iso-

lated subpopulations are exposed.



North American Journal of Fisheries Management 17:543-556, 1997

© Copyright by the American Fisheries Society 1997

Geographic Patterns in Genetic and Life History Variation in

Pumpkinseed Populations from Four East-Central

Ontario Watersheds

MICHAEL G. Fox

Environmental and Resource Studies Program and Department of Biology

Trent University, Peterborough, Ontario K9J 7B8, Canada

JULIE E. CLAUSSEN AND DAVID P. PHILIPP

Center for Aquatic Ecology, Illinois Natural History Survey

607 East Peabody Drive, Champaign, Illinois 61820, USA

Abstract.—We examined the geographic distribution of biochemical genetic and life history

characteristics of 16 populations of pumpkinseed Lepomis gibbosus within four east-central Ontario

watersheds to determine (1) if populations within watersheds were more alike for either of these

traits than populations among watersheds, (2) if the distribution of genetic and life history characteristics

among watersheds coincided with each other, and (3) if the distribution of genetic and

life history characteristics among watersheds showed some geographic pattern. Pumpkinseeds

collected early in the reproductive season in the years 1990-1993 were assessed for reproductive

maturity, gonadosomattc index (females only), and juvenile growth. Allele frequencies at six

polymorphic loci were determined by protein electrophoresis. Cluster analysis based upon genetic

distance coefficients showed three distinct groups, one containing populations from the Rideau

River watershed, a second containing populations from the Crowe River watershed, and a third

containing a mixture of populations from the Cataraqui River and Otonabee River watersheds.

This cluster pattern does not coincide with a geographic distance matrix among river systems

based upon current watersheds, but is consistent with suggested post-Pleistocene recolonization

routes from both the Mississippi and Atlantic refugia. Mean age and length at maturity, however,

showed an east-west pattern of variation, with the populations in the two central Ontario watersheds

maturing earlier and at a smaller size than the populations in the two eastern Ontario watersheds.

The cluster pattern of life history traits also did not coincide with a geographic distance matrix

based upon current watersheds, nor did it coincide with the cluster pattern based upon genetic

distance coefficients. The differences in genetic and life history patterns may reflect original

founder effects during initial recolonization events, the effects of drift subsequent to that time,

life history responses to east-west differences in natural or human-induced environmental factors,

or some combination of these factors. These observed patterns in the distribution of genetic

variation (i.e., the clustering of populations within watersheds) support the concept of managing

native fisheries by the stock concept.



Fish also exhibit interpopulational variation in

life history traits, some of which can be attributed

to genetic factors (McPhail 1977; Fields, et al.

1987; Gharrett et al. 1988; Snyder and Dingle

1988; Beacham el al. 1989; Philipp and Whitt

1991; Toline and Baker 1994; see also Stearns and

Koella 1986). A high degree of variation in reproductive

life history traits has been shown to

occur even among fish populations within the same

geographic region. Although some of this variation

is clearly related to environmental variability (e,g,,

Constantz 1979; Baltz and Moyle 1982; Fox and

Keast 1991), reproductive life history variation

within a geographic region also occurs among fish

populations for which major environmental differences

are not evident (Schmeidler and Brown

1990; Hutchings 1993; Fox 1994).





More

FELLEY, J. In press. Analysis of morphology and

asymmetry in bluegill sunfish (Lepomis macrochi-

rus) in the southeastern United States. Copeia.



NEY, J.J., AND L. L. SMITH, JR. 1976. Serum protein

variability in geographically defined bluegill (Le-

pomis macrochirus) populations. Transactions of

the American Fisheries Society 105:281-290.


Last edited by ewest; 06/23/16 12:52 PM.















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Some light reading I will save for right before bed time. laugh


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laugh

See red print first for general idea - then start at top.
















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Thank you! smile



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That's a lot of big words that say it all depends, anything is possible, fish adapt, variations are noted, regional and climate differences are noted, etc.

And Willis's favorite expression: We really don't know.


It's not about the fish. It's about the pond. Take care of the pond and the fish will be fine. PB subscriber since before it was in color.

Without a sense of urgency, Nothing ever gets done.

Boy, if I say "sic em", you'd better look for something to bite. Sam Shelley Rancher and Farmer Muleshoe Texas 1892-1985 RIP
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One point to start.

The way a fish looks , acts and lives is often due to plasticity (adaptation/environment) not genetics. Every thing is in play. Plasticity has been shown to effect sunfish (Lepomis) shape, size, feeding and behavior in some cases. Also shown to effect internal organs and digestion (energetics) and in RES and possibly PS pharyngeal morphology (crusher plates). Over long periods plasticity can change species (genetics).
















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How is this for "plasticity"? I had a three inch RES try to eat a 1" long piece of nightcrawler last night. I am pretty sure he would have been successful if my jig hadn't been attached to it. laugh



It is starting to make a lot of sense why I am not seeing very many recently hatched fry in my pond this year.





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Biggest predator on Lepomis fry are other lepomis - plastic or not !
















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Shorty I'm glad you posted that picture. Your small RES have that faint reddish on the lower fin tips too. All mine do and with all the talk of hybrids was beginning to wonder if my RES were all mutts! shocked But my small RES look exactly like that. Threw a couple traps in the forage pond today and came up with a dozen like that only about 2" or a little better.


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I had a huge GSH and RES sunfish hatch last year, I had newly hatched fry ringing the the pond in June and July, a little pause in August when it heated up, the again through September. This year I have only seen two small groups of fry so far and I haven't seen them again. The other night I made a dozen casts in a row into the same shallow spot and caught a little 3" RES on each cast.



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I find it interesting that both GSFxRES and RESxGSF tend to produce a lot of females. Not 50-50, but still a larger percentage of females than a lot of the other crosses.


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Cody Note: ewest this is a very good informative map. Thanks for it.

Last edited by Bill Cody; 07/20/17 08:47 PM.















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Redear X Bluegill 97 (3)
Bluegill X Redear 97
Redear X Green 69
Green X Redear 48
Bluegill X Green 97
Green X Bluegill 68 (2)
Redear X Warmouth 55
Bluegill X Warmouth 69 (2)
Green X Warmouth 16
Warmouth X Green 84


This is the one I remember ewest, just couldn't remember if PSSxRES were listed.
Thanks.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Here are the sex ratios (percent male) that Childers got with various hybrid crosses. The male parent is listed first. There is some variation in the numbers from other studies.
see https://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=449213#Post449213

Last edited by ewest; 04/11/24 12:57 PM. Reason: more info

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