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Where did my HSB dissapear to?
#448754 06/02/16 09:34 AM
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I sure could use some help.

I manage a 3 acre pond in NW Pennsylvania. The pond is 3 years old, and has an average depth of 10 to 12 feet. It is aerated year round and the fish are feed spring through fall with pellets and a generous amount of fatheads and shiners are stocked 3 times a year.

The pond was stocked in June of 2014. Everything has been doing beautifully ever since. Ive kept a good record of the growth and development of the fish and have been very surprised by the results.

Last summer the striped bass were like piranhas when the feeder would go off and by the end of the summer they had doubled in size from their original size.

Now, however, we cannot find a single one in the entire pond. They aren't feeding on the pellets and haven't hit any lures or bait.

All other species (CC,Trout, YP, SMB, Crappies, white sucker and unfortunately bullheads) have all been caught and are doing just as well as previously.

The only clue that something catastrophic may have happened to the HSB is that the neighbor found seven dead HSB in the spring when the ice went off. Nothing else was found.

Please, can anyone give me some insight as to what may have happened here? e are very disappointed to have lost them.

Thanks.

Re: Where did my HSB dissapear to?
aguita #448757 06/02/16 09:55 AM
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Well I can tell you this. It varies... My original HSB I put in my 1 acre pond in 2012 sometimes show up at the feeder but most times don't anymore.... I cant catch my bigger ones on lures anymore either I have way to much food in my pond for them to try and chase a lure down. Remember as these HSB get bigger they will eat smaller fish and BG I've seen it first hand. My first 25 I put in my pond were feed trained and I've caught a few now on baby BG and shiners.

Throw a 2 inch BG or 3 inch shiner out there on a hook with a bobber about 2 feet above it and see what happens. You may be in for a fun fight!

Ok fast forward to now! I just put another 25 HsB in my 1 acre pond about a month ago. They are feeding on everything!! Fish food, small spinner baits, meps, you name it they are eating it. My big ones are not to be found.... Then all of a sudden fishing for BG I landed into one with a piece of food... WOW!! I had a 4 foot rod and 6lbs line and had it for about 45 seconds and it just snapped my line! Up till then I would have swore something happened to mine also...

I can almost guarantee they are there they are just getting a bit more smarter and picky as to what they eat!!

RC


The only difference between a rut and a Grave is the depth. So get up get out of that rut and get moving!! Time to work!!
Re: Where did my HSB dissapear to?
aguita #448770 06/02/16 12:12 PM
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HSB are very sensitive to O2 changes, more so than the other fish you list.

I lost the vast majority of mine after a 2"+ cold rain occurred in late fall 2 years ago. It changed the pond temp rapidly and killed off a bunch of vegetation....and that killed a ton of my HSB.

I still have a few, having caught a couple this year. But it sounds like you may have lost most if not all due to some sort of winter kill.


Dale



"When tempted to fight fire with fire, remember that the Fire Department usually uses water." - anonymous
Re: Where did my HSB dissapear to?
aguita #448778 06/02/16 01:33 PM
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DL,

That is possible after his neighbor said he saw 6 or 7 floaters... How many HSB did you stock? I don't remember reading that anywhere...

RC


The only difference between a rut and a Grave is the depth. So get up get out of that rut and get moving!! Time to work!!
Re: Where did my HSB dissapear to?
aguita #448789 06/02/16 03:45 PM
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With the exception of one individual, I lost all of my HSB a couple years ago also.


"Forget pounds and ounces, I'm figuring displacement!"

If we accept that: MBG(+)FGSF(=)HBG(F1)
And we surmise that: BG(>)HBG(F1) while GSF(<)HBG(F1)
Would it hold true that: HBG(F1)(+)AM500(x)q.d.(=)1.5lbGRWT?
PB answer: It depends.
Re: Where did my HSB dissapear to?
sprkplug #448797 06/02/16 06:26 PM
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Originally Posted By: sprkplug
With the exception of one individual, I lost all of my HSB a couple years ago also.

Sparkie, are you sure you "lost" them?
Perhaps they decamped en masse rather than be lumped in with the other hybrids at your place.

Re: Where did my HSB dissapear to?
Yolk Sac #448799 06/02/16 07:02 PM
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Originally Posted By: Yolk Sac
Originally Posted By: sprkplug
With the exception of one individual, I lost all of my HSB a couple years ago also.

Sparkie, are you sure you "lost" them?
Perhaps they decamped en masse rather than be lumped in with the other hybrids at your place.


I'm figuring the HBG killed and consumed them, piranha style. The lone surviving HSB is hoping for safe passage to TJ's pond.


"Forget pounds and ounces, I'm figuring displacement!"

If we accept that: MBG(+)FGSF(=)HBG(F1)
And we surmise that: BG(>)HBG(F1) while GSF(<)HBG(F1)
Would it hold true that: HBG(F1)(+)AM500(x)q.d.(=)1.5lbGRWT?
PB answer: It depends.
Re: Where did my HSB dissapear to?
aguita #448804 06/02/16 07:55 PM
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I am not sure of the low temperature tolerance of HSB. It is feasible that aerating too much all winter lowered the water temperature enough the HSB died. Do you pull the diffusers into shallow water for winter aeration? Cold water of 39F and <39F mixes very easily and even regular aeration moved to shallow water can have big influence on a large area. The striped bass genetics from the marine habitat of the hybrid I suspect is not well adapted to water less than 39F. Prolonged cold water stress may have contributed to death of your HSB.

Last edited by Bill Cody; 06/02/16 07:57 PM.

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Re: Where did my HSB dissapear to?
aguita #448862 06/03/16 07:02 AM
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HSB lower incipient lethal temperature 36.5 to 40.6 F depending see below.

Cold Tolerance and Fatty Acid Composition of
Striped Bass, White Bass, and Their Hybrids

ANITA M. KELLY*1 AND CHRISTOPHER C. KOHLER
Fisheries Research Laboratory and Department of Zoology,
Southern Illinois University at Carbondale, Carbondale, Illinois 62901-6511, USA

Abstract.Cold tolerance of striped bass Morone saxatilis, white bass M. chrysops, palmetto
bass (female striped bass 3 male white bass), and sunshine bass (female white bass 3 male striped
bass) were compared under controlled laboratory conditions. Two groups of each taxon were
acclimated at 208C in a recirculating-water system housed in an environmental chamber and were
fed either a natural or prepared diet for 84 d. The fatty acid composition of the natural diet was
13% more unsaturated than that of the prepared diet. Fish fed the natural diet subsequently had
unsaturated : saturated fatty acid ratios 1025% higher than fish fed the prepared diet. After being
subjected to identical simulated cold fronts (108C drop in surface water temperature, as if the fish
were confined in cages or pens), all groups of fish fed the prepared diet suffered high mortality
(5090%) whereas there was zero mortality among the groups receiving the natural diet. White
bass and sunshine bass fed the prepared diet had higher survival rates (50% and 40%, respectively)
compared with their striped bass and palmetto bass counterparts (10% and 20%, respectively).
The lower incipient lethal temperature was higher for fish fed the prepared diet (5.9, 4.8, 2.5, and
1.98C for striped bass, palmetto bass, sunshine bass and white bass, respectively) than for those
fed the natural diet (near 0.08C, but 1.88C for sunshine bass). Both studies reflect a maternal affect
on cold tolerance, with white bass being most tolerant. We demonstrated that diet-induced muscle
fatty acid composition directly affects cold tolerance of striped bass, white bass, and their hybrids.


-----------------------------------------------------------
[color:#CC0000][/color]
When raising hybrid striped bass in cages, several producers have reported sudden losses of hybrids when the water temperature rapidly decreased by several degrees in a relatively short period of time (Valenti 1989; A. M. Kelly and C. C. Kohler, personal observation). The rapid onset of cold temperatures has been reported as the cause of death in several species of fish (Verril 1901; Storey 1937; Galloway 1941; Gunther 1941; Ash et al. 1974; Coutant 1977; Mitchell 1990). It is believed that the lipid composition in the fish muscle plays a vital role in the ability of fish to adapt from one temperature to another (Hazel 1984; Greene and Selivonchick 1987; Henderson and Tocher 1987). Phospholipids are the class of lipids in which the most obvious changes occur. As environmental temperatures decrease, the invariable response is an increase in fatty acid unsaturation (Johnston and Roots 1964; Caldwell and Vernberg 1970; Hazel 1979; Cossins and Prosser 1982). Conversely, as ambient temperatures increase, phospholipid saturation must also increase to avoid excess fluidity. The dynamics of lipid composition of cells occurs in order to maintain a constant fluid matrix for enzymes associated with membranes (Greene and Selivonchick 1990). Different species of fish differ in their patterns of fat deposition and mobilization, which in turn affects the temperature range in which the species can grow and survive. For example, the Nile tilapia Oreochromis niloticus does not store excess lipids in the musculature but rather relies on visceral deposits that it is incapable of mobilizing at low temperatures, which results in high mortalities between 8C and 6.5C (Satoh et al. 1984). Viola et al. (1988) demonstrated that the common carp Cyprinus carpio, which is capable of mobilizing lipids from muscular and visceral deposits, is able to survive to 4.5C under the same conditions.

The amount of unsaturated fatty acids in the muscle is believed to affect a fish's ability to tolerate lower temperatures (Hoar and Dorchester 1949; Hoar and Cottle 1952a, 1952b). In general, the tissue temperature of fish is within 1C of the ambient water temperature (Carey et al. 1971; Reynolds et al. 1976). Physiologically, fish are affected by variations in water temperature in two ways (Hochachka and Somero 1984). First, temperature determines the rate of chemical reactions, and secondly, temperature dictates the point of equilibrium between the formation and disruption of the macromolecular structures in biological membranes. Structural flexibility, therefore, is a requirement for integrity of biological membranes (Hazel 1993). Cold temperatures constrain this flexibility and, as a result, stabilize less active conformations. The rate of increase in the ability of fish to tolerate higher temperatures usually requires less than 24 h at temperatures above 20C, whereas the gain in resistance to lower temperatures is a much slower process, requiring up to 20 d in some species (Doudoroff 1942; Brett 1944). The rate of resistance to lower temperatures is governed in part by the rate of metabolism, which is depressed at lower environmental temperatures. The simulated cold front in this study resulted in higher mortalities
Diets influence the fatty acid composition in several species of fish (Henderson and Tocher 1987; Lovell 1989; Seo et al. 1994), and the ability of a fish to alter its lipid composition when placed in colder water is one factor that determines survival. For example, summer harvest syndrome is an anomaly seen in goldfish Carassius auratus when they are harvested in the summer and placed in tanks containing water that is colder than the pond water (Mitchell 1990). The death of these fish is thought to be a result of the fat that the goldfish consume or produce (Mitchell 1990). Goldfish with high concentrations of saturated body fat are less tolerant of temperature change than fish with high concentrations of unsaturated body fat. Similarly, rainbow trout Oncorhynhcus mykiss that have been fed diets high in saturated fats stiffen and die when placed in cold water (Mitchell 1990). In these fish, the fat apparently hardens in the colder water, causing the fat-impregnated muscles to stiffen and the fish to become exhausted and lose movement.

Although it has been hypothesized that temperature is closely linked to membrane composition, relatively few studies have been conducted to determine if a correlation exists between lipid composition and cold tolerance. This study was designed to determine the effect of a sudden temperature change (a simulated cold front) on striped bass, white bass, and their hybrids fed either a natural or prepared diet, as well as to determine their lower incipient lethal temperature. The association of fatty acid composition and unsaturated: saturated fatty acid ratios in these fish were examined with respect to their tolerance to cold.

We demonstrated that diet-induced muscle fatty acid composition directly affects cold tolerance of striped bass, white bass, and their hybrids. Fish fed fathead minnows had fatty acid ratios 1025% higher than fish fed a prepared diet. When subjected to a simulated cold front, all groups of fish fed the prepared diet suffered high mortality (5090%) whereas the groups fed the natural diet experienced zero mortalities. The LILT was also higher for fish fed the prepared diet.



Fish deaths due to cold temperatures have frequently been reported. It is generally believed that deaths arise from the rapidity of dropping temperatures whereby the fish are unable to acclimate to the lower temperature despite being within their biokinetic range. It is consequently critical especially in autumn to feed fish of the genus Morone, and possibly other genera, a diet that is relatively low in saturated fats when they are confined to surface waters in cages or pens.

Last edited by ewest; 06/03/16 07:21 AM.















Re: Where did my HSB dissapear to?
ewest #448873 06/03/16 08:45 AM
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I had a client that experienced a winterkill in one pond. Some Rainbow trout survived, but all the HSB died. I agree about the temp sensitivity.


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Re: Where did my HSB dissapear to?
aguita #448880 06/03/16 10:42 AM
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Well wouldn't you think you would see more of them floating? He said his neighbor saw 7 so if he put 150 in a 3 acre pond I would think he would have seen more floaters..... but maybe not???

RC


The only difference between a rut and a Grave is the depth. So get up get out of that rut and get moving!! Time to work!!
Re: Where did my HSB dissapear to?
aguita #448882 06/03/16 11:43 AM
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I agree, fish should all have to wear self-inflating life vests so that when no motion is detected for a set amount of time the vest inflates and then we can have an accurate count on our mortalities...

Re: Where did my HSB dissapear to?
aguita #448883 06/03/16 11:46 AM
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LOL I know right dang fish!! He could be scared for no reason, I can go weeks on end without seeing my HSB or catching one.... and I only have a 1 acre pond. So in 3 acres I can see where you may not run into one for a while.....

RC


The only difference between a rut and a Grave is the depth. So get up get out of that rut and get moving!! Time to work!!
Re: Where did my HSB dissapear to?
aguita #448898 06/03/16 02:13 PM
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Well, thankfully HSB are readily available, fairly cheap, and easy to grow fast on pellets. Might be time to chalk the population up to winterkill event. I have never witnessed HSB ignore feeding - I suspect if they were present, you'd be seeing them.


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Re: Where did my HSB dissapear to?
aguita #448997 06/05/16 07:01 AM
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I stocked 16 HSB into my 3 1/2 ac pond in April of 2015. Talk about a needle in a haystack! We didn't see or hear from them until mid-September to spite feeding pellets off the pier all year. We caught 3 within 10 min of each other using crank baits and they had doubled in size! That was the last time we seen them... We fish from bank most of the time so I figure the HSB are frequenting other parts of the pond most of the time. Is this an accurate assumption?

Also we stocked 900 RES nearly 2 yrs ago and haven't seen hide nor hair of them.. I haven't seen a single floater to this day. Are RES this shy or should I wonder about these as well?

Re: Where did my HSB dissapear to?
aguita #449005 06/05/16 07:46 AM
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Jamie, like you I do not see my HSB very often. My first stocking was in fall of 15, these were in the 7" size. I did a survey and found a few in the 12" size this past March but due to low numbers, I restocked this spring. I am not positive what caused the reduced numbers but I suspect the cormorants did a number on them. Now even after restocking the HSB at 3 times the number u mention, I continue to see few at the feeder and have not seen any cormorants at the pond since the restocking. Latter stocking seams to be the path I will be taking in the future, based on my past experiences with the HSB.
As far as the RES, I stocked 1850 in the same size pond as u. I stocked in the fall of 14 and again in February of 15. I have caught a few but they are harder to find and catch when comparing them to cnbg.

Tracy

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Re: Where did my HSB dissapear to?
aguita #449063 06/06/16 06:06 AM
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Thanks for all the great information guys. After having such an easy winter, the last thing I expected was a winter kill. We have a quarter acre pond on the same property, no aeration with little supplemental food and have never had an issue there. There are 3 striped bass in that pond, and they are happy and healthy.

Can anyone suggest how to prevent this from occurring in the future? The pond is fed from underground springs and is located in perhaps the nastiest location for severe winter weather in our region.

Edited to say that one of our pond users caught 3 HSB at the pond this weekend, so maybe there's still hope.

Thanks again.

Last edited by aguita; 06/06/16 01:57 PM.
Re: Where did my HSB dissapear to?
aguita #453497 08/05/16 10:56 AM
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I have a pond that freezes over most winters for a month or two with up to 5 or 6 inches of ice. I do not aerate. During the winter it is 15 to 20 feet at its deepest below the ice. It is about an acre in size. gravel bottom. And mostly ground water filled..although in winter and spring a small spring feedsin and so overflows into a wetland swamp.

Would I expect the temp under the ice in this type of pond to be ok to sustain HSB? I currently have BG and LMB in the pond? Also what size and how many would be good to stock with an established LMB and BG population? The goal is recreational fishing.

Any advice would be helpful.

Thanks.


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