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#21577 06/09/05 09:50 AM
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has anyone had any experience with redear hybrid (redear X green sunfish)? I have a friend who purchased some and that is the first hybrid redear I have heard of. They are said to grow extremely fast even over hybrid bluegill rates.

Last edited by Bill Cody; 05/17/16 08:33 AM. Reason: Spell Edit

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Not surprisingly, hybrid's growth potential generally falls somewhere in between the growth potential of the parent species. When one studies the state records throughout the U.S., most bluegill X green sunfish records are smaller than the pure strain bluegill record. In the states where the hybrid record is larger, there is the possibility that the fish were misidentified or possibly redear/bluegill cross. There's the "great myth" of the bluegill/green sunfish hybrid being some spectacular growing fish with great top end growth...in reality the BG/GS hybrids probably just have a nice early growth spike due to the larger mouth and ability to utilize larger forage early in life.

Anyway, in answer to the question, I'm making a semi-educated guess that you would have the best top-end growth potential with the following crosses in descending order.

BG X RES
RES X GS
BG X GS

This guess is based on some personal experience and by averaging the growth potential of parent species. I'm willing to take a beating from anyone who disagrees with me. \:\)


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Bump.

Anyone with RES/GSF hybrid experience?

Been a thread on BG/RES hybrids recently, but nothing that I know of on RES/GSF.

This was a former thread on the subject.
RESxGSF hybrids

I have a sediment pond that was stocked with 175 RES and 100 CNBG and apparently a hand full of GSF by contamination. Hoping to get some hybrids and especially hoping to get some RESxGSF natural hybrids. Hope I can identify them as such if it does happen. Already have got a few natural hybrids from this pond, but guessing they were CNBGxGSF.

Last edited by snrub; 05/15/16 11:15 AM.

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Anyone have any data or educated guesses on how likely RES, GSF, and BG are to naturally cross if they are all in the same small (1/3 to 1/2 ac) pond?

snrub #447310 05/16/16 01:18 AM
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Originally Posted By: snrub
Bump.

Anyone with RES/GSF hybrid experience?

Been a thread on BG/RES hybrids recently, but nothing that I know of on RES/GSF.

This was a former thread on the subject.
RESxGSF hybrids

I have a sediment pond that was stocked with 175 RES and 100 CNBG and apparently a hand full of GSF by contamination. Hoping to get some hybrids and especially hoping to get some RESxGSF natural hybrids. Hope I can identify them as such if it does happen. Already have got a few natural hybrids from this pond, but guessing they were CNBGxGSF.


Yes, I do have some experience. I have a few GRES hybrids caught every year in my main pond, but I suspect these may not true F1 GRES, rather an F2 or beyond and may consist of some BG genetics. Lepomis hybridization crossing/backcrossing makes reliable ID nearly impossible for me.

I've caught several GRES in the past which I believed were true F1s - cool fish. GRES vs. BRES vs. GBG should be fairly easy to identify provided they are true F1s.


Many men go fishing all of their lives without knowing that it is not fish they are after. ~ Henry David Thoreau

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Lepomis cross id is very hard and not at all accurate especially from just a pic. Why do I say this ? We don't know (little research) on how the genetic traits of lepomis are exhibited in crosses. There is a lot more involved than just how they look. For example Dave Willis and I were talking about the subject (we did some common joint research on the subject)and he told me the story below. He had a group of students out on the lake catching fish and having a hands on show and tell. He picked up a fish and said students this is a good example of a bluegill. Then he looked closer , checked the gill rakers and said my bad this is a HBG. Then he picked up a near by fish (same shock sequence)and started to say here is another HBG but paused. Checked closely and it was a plain BG. Two fish , 2 wrong initial ids by IMO one of the top lepomis experts ever. Second example several lepomis studies were written with highly different results. A few years passed and more genetic info started to develop with the writers starting to wonder even more. The conclusion in the studies showing a lower % of male offspring in the GSF crosses was attributable to the experts not starting with 100% pure GSF genetics (missed id on GSF crosses by experts). More looking and the experts started realizing it was not easy to find pure GSF stock. Much more but enough for now. We just don't have the answers yet - and it depends. The more we look the more we realize we don't know.

Last edited by ewest; 05/16/16 01:37 PM.















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The essence of my question is, if you have these three species in your pond, how likely is it that they will cross? Would the crosses by very rare, making it unlikely that you would ever catch one, or might you expect that one in ten or one in a hundred would be a cross? Of course, if you couldn't recognize that what you caught was a cross, it would probably make little difference.

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How many hybrids that will happen I do not know. But I do know I have already been getting some. I've already trapped quite a few small ones and transferred to my main pond. I probably trap one hybrid for every 30 CNBG that go into the modified minnow traps (opening widened to about 2" instead of 1").

I have no problem identifying hybrids with GSF genes in them. Larger mouth, telltale white or yellow fin tipping, and remnants of green cheek bars are signs I look for. Hybrids with GSF will have at least one of those characteristics and usually all three. When I am feeding around the pond edge and I throw out AM400 (small BB sized feed) near shore to the small BG the white/yellow tipping on the hybrids stick out like a sore thumb. They are very easy to spot among hundreds of BG.

What I have trouble with the identification is diferentiating if the hybrid is a RES/GSF or a CNBG/GSF. Especially when the fish are small, which is mostly what I now have (other than the original stocking fish) in this sediment pond. When the fish get larger, I THINK I will be able to tell the difference. At two inches it is even hard for me to tell for sure it is a RES fingerling and not a CNBG. Now by the time they get 3", usually there is a orange dot on the opercular tab of the small RES. At 4" it becomes easy.

A few times I have caught more than one hybrid at a time in the traps and they have a different "look". I THINK there have been a few RES/GSF hybrids but am unsure. The only time RES fry go into the trap is if I bait the trap when the sun is getting low in the evening. Had two 3" RES in one trap the other night.

When it comes to catching the fish by either trap or line (have caught and moved a few hundred CNBG over to the main pond by hook and line) the hybrids are very aggressive. They go in traps for food easily and they are caught easily. Before I realized I wanted hybrids in my main pond I caught about 30 from my main pond till I was hardly catching any any more (transferred them to my old pond). They are very aggressive and are easy to catch. If BG are biting aggressively both are easy to catch. If the bites become far and few the hybrids will be the ones to end up on the line.

I don't know how rare the crosses will be, but do know I am getting some. One thing possibly facilitating this is the fact that this is a sediment pond and by its very nature tends to be turbid multiple times during the year. This may actually help mask what males the females are mating with, thus making hybrid production more likely.

I may get some RES/CNBG hybrids also, but pretty sure I would not even be able to tell they are a hybrid at 2" and maybe not till they get 4 or 5".

I put 4 adult RES (5-8" from my main pond)in this pond in addition to the original stocking from the fish truck. I think I caught them near a spawning bed because all 4 were caught within a half hour and casting to the same spot. So RES had a potential jump in production in this pond compared to the 2" CNBG and RES stockers.

I hope to build a pond some day (perhaps this fall after the corn comes off a field near by) where I stock only male RES and female GSF (caught out of my own ponds). Then the only offspring that can happen will be a RES/GSF cross.

Why? Damm'd if I know. It's a hobby. It is supposed to waste time and money.

Last edited by snrub; 05/16/16 06:19 PM.

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snrub #447389 05/16/16 07:09 PM
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Originally Posted By: snrub
.....I probably trap one hybrid for every 30 CNBG that go into the modified minnow traps (opening widened to about 2" instead of 1").

......


I use a Gee Crawfish trap. Pretty much the same concept as modifying a minnow trap but a bigger area to hold the fish. The ends are interchangeable with the Gee Minnow traps.

http://www.memphisnet.net/product/3801/traps-fish-minnow

Last edited by Bill D.; 05/16/16 07:17 PM. Reason: Typo

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Bill D. #447390 05/16/16 08:14 PM
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I've got one of the black plastic coated crawdad traps similar to the Gee but not a Gee crawdad trap. I have a half dozen of the Gee minnow traps so just modified one of them by opening up the entrance with a pair of diagonal cutters.

I use these two traps when I want to catch the larger fish (up to about 3 or 3.5" on BG and probably 4" on GSF. Use the minnow traps for the smaller fish.

I generally only leave the traps in for 15 minutes or so using the crawdad traps. The fish will leave as soon as the food is gone. Been using dog food for bait about half inch in diameter chunks (that makes gravy!). Fish seem to go in for it pretty well and it does not fall out of the trap mesh like the smaller fish food. Mesh bags work for the bait but are a pain. Just drop the dog food in the opening.


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Generally the species don't cross under normal conditions. Crosses would be uncommon but not rare . However many factors are involved . If one species is in low numbers the chance of crossing increases substantially. Muddy water (poor visibility) is a factor. Limited spawning areas also increases the chances.
















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The GSF numbers are very low in this pond. Was not supposed to be any. But somehow there is. Either contaminated stock or they walked up from the creek or Dave Davidson did me a favor and slipped a few in for me. grin

I have caught a half dozen and removed them recently.

Last edited by snrub; 05/16/16 09:53 PM.

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When the GSF were stocked I noticed that your female BG were busy applying lipstick and donning short skirts. My work is done.


It's not about the fish. It's about the pond. Take care of the pond and the fish will be fine. PB subscriber since before it was in color.

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snrub #447425 05/17/16 08:13 AM
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Something to think about. grin

http://www.jstor.org/stable/2406500?seq=1#page_scan_tab_contents

Quote:
Abstract
Sounds were recorded in colonies of six species of sunfish (Lepomis megalotis, L. humilis, L. punctatus, L. macrochirus, L. cyanellus and L. microlophus) under natural conditions. No sounds were heard in a seventh species (L. auritus) during observations that included 17 courtships and three spawnings. This lack of sound production during courtship may be an important cue for mate recognition in this species. The calls of the sound-producing species consist of a series of grunt-like sounds or popping sounds (in L. microlophus) and were heard during active courtship of a female by a nesting male. The males produced at least part of the sounds because L. megalotis, L. humilis, and L. macrochirus males could be induced to court and call to dead females that were manipulated on a string. Also, the jaws of L. microlophus males could be seen to snap shut as the popping sounds were heard during courtship. The sound producing mechanism in the other species and whether or not the females also produce sounds is not known. Except for the L. microlophus sounds, which may exhibit transients with frequencies up to about 7 KHz, the frequencies used in these calls is under 2 KHz, with the highest amplitudes under 1 KHz. The mean sound duration for each species is about 0.64 seconds except for L. cyanellus which averages 0.36 seconds. The mean pulse repetition rates of L. punctatus, L. megalotis, and L. humilis are different at the 0.01 level. The sounds of L. macrochirus, L. cyanellus, and L. microlophus showed almost no pulsation. L. cyanellus has a much shorter grunt duration than L. macrochirus and L. microlophus and these two differ primarily in the number of sounds per call. L. microlophus produces one or at most two sounds together while L. macrochirus almost always produces a series of grunts. The total number of sounds recorded for each species and the percentage showing pulsation are: L. macrochirus 80 (7%), L. punctatus 200 (25%), L. humilis 199 (66%), L. megalotis 141 (96%), L. cyanellus 24 (0%), and L. microlophus 34 (0%). Preliminary playback experiments of the courtship sounds indicate that L. megalotis, L. humilis and possibly L. macrochirus are attracted to their conspecific calls, at least during spawning. The other species have not been tested yet.



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Many of the lepomis (RES, BG , GSF and others) use sound , smell (chemical) and visual cues for mating. They also engage in elaborate movement systems (mating dance). Those are why natural crossing is not common. When any of those factors are reduced crossing becomes more common. Also some crossing occurs because of close proximity of spawning sites (for example BG , RES and or PS nesting together/next to each other).
















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Erik,
do you suppose that if you had one lone RES in a pond full of BG that the RES would eventually begin to mock the visual cues?


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Male RES ? Probably just rush in and do his thing and get out before all the male BG mob him. Good question - no idea of the correct answer. Strong is the adaptation in RES.

















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