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Yes to a certain extent carbs can be a problem.

From the PB Conf on Fish Nutrition - posted here in other threads.

Fish meal has proven to be an excellent dietary protein source for finfish, leading to its description as an ideal protein. The ideal protein concept is based on the premise that if the amino acid profile of the feed mimics the whole-body amino acid profile of the animal being fed, protein utilization and growth should be maximized

Lipids, fatty acids, and their derivatives play a role in virtually every physiological process that occurs and for this reason dietary lipid composition and content represent a massive sector of overall nutrition. Nowhere is this more true than in finfish nutrition where lipid can exceed protein in the body composition of finfish, a testament to the physiological and energetic importance of this nutrient class (Tocher2003). Aside from physiological importance, lipids are indispensable energy sources, especially for finfish, which are not well-adapted to carbohydrate utilization.

Dietary protein and energy must be kept in proper balance because a deficiency or excess of dietary energy can reduce growth rates. Fish fed diets deficient in energy will metabolize more expensive dietary protein to meet energy requirements. Excess dietary energy can decrease protein intake and suppress growth.

finfish do not require carbohydrates in their diet, complex carbohydrates cannot be digested and utilized efficiently by most finfish species. A general dichotomy exists in the carbohydrate digestive ability of warmwater omnivores and herbivores versus the inability of coolwater and coldwater carnivores, which lack the appropriate function necessary for digestion of carbohydrates.

For this reason, diets fed to these fish rarely contain more than 20% complex carbohydrate

Conversely, warmwater omnivores or herbivores (e.g., channel catfish, tilapia, common carp, and white sturgeon) adapt well to diets containing as much as 40% dietary carbohydrate .


Note HSB can use and absorb carbs - an exception.

Although vitamins and minerals are required in minute amounts compared with protein, lipid, and so forth, they are critically important, Every micronutrient has a deficiency disease associated with it, the effects of which are sometimes irreversible or fatal. For a few vitamins and most minerals, excess can be equally detrimental, resulting in toxicity.


Last edited by ewest; 04/12/16 02:06 PM.















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One thing that I see everybody getting hung up on is the protein/fat ratio, i.e. more is better, right? I was the same way a year ago, now I know a little bit more. It's a good "guide", but it isn't the only thing that needs to be looked at. You also have to look at what species of fish the food was designed to feed.

For instance, if you have cat food at 30%/15% and you have dog food at 30%/15% and cat food was $10/bag cheaper would you buy cat food for your dog? You may laugh at the comparison, but it's not so far fetched when talking about different species of fish and their food requirements.

Proteins can be sourced from many, many different things. Some are not very easily digestible by fish, others are. There are different trace/micro nutrients and amino acids that are in the different foods. Different fish species need different blends. Different protein sources that may be not very digestible by fish can be made more easily digested by modifying the other ingredients in the food. Also, different fish species respond to different protein/fat sources than others. So, it's not just a matter of what protein/fat levels.

That is why there is food for different species of fish. If there wasn't a need for that, then there could be a maximum of 3 different fish feeds. High protein/high fat/small pellet size for fingerlings, medium protein/medium fat/medium pellet size for middle of the road fish, and low protein/low fat/large pellet size for the largest fish in the pond.

Will the different fish food producers tell you what trace/micro nutrients and amino acids are in the food? I highly doubt it, as that is part of their propriety information that makes their food "theirs" and how well it works.


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What ewest is saying is pretty much what I was told by the Optimal feed guy Steve.

He as well told me the big difference and he could not tell me, is the propriety ingredients (trace) that make their feed different and better.

I think ewest is very right and we do need to rely to some degree on what is said here on PB and what research is released to try and make a reasonable decision on feed type,size, and digestibility, along with the general protein and fat assumptions we all have. IMHO

I liked the Aquamax product until the change and lack of access to the product, and have decided to, at least temporally, switch to the Optimal feed like several have here.

I have always wanted the very best feed for fastest growth and least waste in growing CNBG but have not felt I have the details, white papers, research, etc.. that make me think I "have the best product". I do feel since I have become a PB'er that I and most of us feed our fish way better than most.

I guess feed will continue to change and flexibility and an open mind will help until one of our bright scientific PB' mind(s) dedicates themselves to making the best product, and then a few general products that will sell enough to make a good living on. One can always dream, Right!


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TJ,

I'm a big fan of Skretting now. Still irked at AM. I've used both the trout and steelhead. Honestly, I'm a little bit odd. I want a 'varied' diet for my fish - always have. Even when my BG were blowing up I used a varied diet. I always supplemented AM even when it was my foundation. So here's what I do with my supplemental (admittedly primary) feed.

Rotate. Use different foods. Honestly, it takes the fish some getting used to but it helps me because I can't rely on anyone having food my fish like, so I teach them to like everything (except the new AM which they eat like I ate broccoli as a kid).

Right now, I use Skretting trout and Optimal. I did the Steelhead in late fall, and rotate it occasionally. I like to do higher fat going into winter as that seems like a thing that animals do in the wild...

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The previous four posts are very enlightening,,, study their words carefully. The statements pretty well summarize this thread. The posts also answer TJ's question about usefulness of the protein:fat content of the Koi food for other pond fish. It likely has high carbohydrates and a formulation for Koi but probably a poor food for most sport fish. Hopefully the fish food for sport fish will continue to improve and become widely available. It will take time.

Last edited by Bill Cody; 04/13/16 11:05 AM.

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IMO until recently, pond owners feeding pellets were more interested in achieving high relative weights rather than the health and life span of their fish. As this thinking slowly changes to looking for both growth and health, I think we can look for companies like Optima to lead the way to the future as fish chow is their main product line. We are small potatoes to the huge livestock and pet food chow producers.

Just my 1 cent

Last edited by Bill D.; 04/12/16 09:30 PM. Reason: Clarification

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Interesting and informative discussion! There are quite a few people on here with good knowledge about commercial extruded feeds. I have an interest and some knowledge about commercial dog foods and a lot of the issues are similar.

When it comes to commercial feeds ash and fiber content is usually a good indicator of quality. Ash content is rarely reported on dog food labels unless a company is bragging. A higher ash indicates poorer quality ingredients, usually more bone content. Ash is what's left after the food is burned at a very high temperature and consists of minerals and also heavy metals and toxic materials. Fiber is usually a filler, something undigestible. High amounts of ash and fiber can result in poor growth. You may have to ask the feed company what their levels are if it's not already on the bag.

I noticed that some values in the posts are expressed as crude protein, another as just protein (assuming crude?). Crude protein is different than digestible protein, digestible protein is what the species is able to assimilate, some crude protein isn't very digestible and produces more waste and less nutrition. Quality of protein and how the food is produced can have a great influence on how digestible it is. If the research is there for fish, digestible protein is what you should compare and will be a lower value than crude protein.

I would feed to your specific needs, most things are a give and take, there is no perfect commercial food! If a maintenance diet is what you need then that is what you should probably feed as you will have less waste.

I found this article very useful, don't know if it's been posted before:
Interpreting a Fish Food Package Label
https://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/fa159



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Originally Posted By: Bill D.
IMO until recently, pond owners feeding pellets were more interested in achieving high relative weights rather than the health and life span of their fish. As this thinking slowly changes to looking for both growth and health, I think we can look for companies like Optima to lead the way to the future as fish chow is their main product line. We are small potatoes to the huge livestock and pet food chow producers.

Just my 1 cent


With dogs, slow growth is desired when raising a puppy so a moderate food is usually best. If the diet is adequate during growth the final adult size will be the same as if a "hot" food is fed with faster growth. The final result in either case is determined by genetics not food but the slower growing puppy is usually a healthier specimen orthopedically. Don't know if this can be applied in any way to fish, lol.



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Originally Posted By: AaronM
TJ,

I'm a big fan of Skretting now. Still irked at AM. I've used both the trout and steelhead. Honestly, I'm a little bit odd. I want a 'varied' diet for my fish - always have. Even when my BG were blowing up I used a varied diet. I always supplemented AM even when it was my foundation. So here's what I do with my supplemental (admittedly primary) feed.

Rotate. Use different foods. Honestly, it takes the fish some getting used to but it helps me because I can't rely on anyone having food my fish like, so I teach them to like everything (except the new AM which they eat like I ate broccoli as a kid).

Right now, I use Skretting trout and Optimal. I did the Steelhead in late fall, and rotate it occasionally. I like to do higher fat going into winter as that seems like a thing that animals do in the wild...


Yo Matos, great to hear from you! Thanks for your feedback - you are growing enormous gills in the desert, I'm glad to hear you've found something that works. Everything I'm hearing is positive on the Optimal BG feed, hope you chime in with your results.

My fish are still reluctantly taking the remaining AM I have stockpiled, but I am obviously looking for a change. I'd really like identify a quality food that fits the bill for YP diet, but sounds like there's nothing available. I think I'll give Skretting a try when I finally deplete the AM stores.


Many men go fishing all of their lives without knowing that it is not fish they are after. ~ Henry David Thoreau

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Good to hear from you Aaron.

This year I'm feeding nothing but Optimal @ 4 seconds per day in a 1.5 to 2 acre pond. So far, the BG's size indicates that it's a game changer for me.


It's not about the fish. It's about the pond. Take care of the pond and the fish will be fine. PB subscriber since before it was in color.

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Dave same here.Optimal only since October.48 sec/day split between 2 feeders on 13 ac pond

Right or wrong or foolish my new pond has been exclusively Optimal except for Aquamax 400 for 4 months after stocking last spring

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I too am happy wirh the Optimal for bluegills. Have been feeding it hydrated and refrigerated to my ~ 150 bluegills in the RAS tank and some of them are 8 inches. Most are in the high 6 to 7 inch range and not even a year old yet.

Now if they could ge me a larger yellow perch feed I'd never use any feed from Purina Mills again.

Last edited by Cecil Baird1; 04/13/16 09:24 AM.

If pigs could fly bacon would be harder to come by and there would be a lot of damaged trees.






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Cecil, there will be 4.5mm YP feed run next week, and an even larger pellet size of 5.5mm run some time after that. BUT since YP in a RAS aren't raised to the size of YP that you need for the taxidermy trade before they hit a knife, I don't know if you will get the pellet size that you want.

I could talk to them and get 1,000# added to the order if you want of the 4.5mm feed, and if you really wanted larger pellet size YP feed, the small mill can run some special order 7mm YP feed. But, to run the special order, I think that has to be 1,000# minimum. I know that smaller batches can be run, but due to the labor costs being the same anything less and the price per pound really gets high.


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Yp feed? I'm all ears!


Many men go fishing all of their lives without knowing that it is not fish they are after. ~ Henry David Thoreau

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AaronM - It is really great that you visited and posted. Still growing fish? - GREAT! Can you update us on your current fishery?

It sounds like progress is being made toward improved extruded food for our sport fish. Hooray!

Last edited by Bill Cody; 04/13/16 11:14 AM.

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Originally Posted By: teehjaeh57
Yp feed? I'm all ears!


TJ, PM sent.


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Originally Posted By: esshup
Cecil, there will be 4.5mm YP feed run next week, and an even larger pellet size of 5.5mm run some time after that. BUT since YP in a RAS aren't raised to the size of YP that you need for the taxidermy trade before they hit a knife, I don't know if you will get the pellet size that you want.

I could talk to them and get 1,000# added to the order if you want of the 4.5mm feed, and if you really wanted larger pellet size YP feed, the small mill can run some special order 7mm YP feed. But, to run the special order, I think that has to be 1,000# minimum. I know that smaller batches can be run, but due to the labor costs being the same anything less and the price per pound really gets high.


I understand all that Scott as I do understand supply and demand and the costs associated with it, along with the gouging we are taking by UPS and Fed Ex. It's just as long as it's not availabe to me in smaller quantities I'll get it elsewhere.


If pigs could fly bacon would be harder to come by and there would be a lot of damaged trees.






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Cecil, I think I might put in an order next year for some of the feed in the biggest pellet size available when it is available and see if I can get enough guys that are local to go in on it. They won't break up shipping the bags individually, so it would have to be shipped here and picked up, or picked up from a more central location.


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Let me think about it Scott. I don't want you sitting on feed you can't sell, and I don't use much now that I use the Optima for the bluegills. A bag of 5D06 lasts me a couple of months now that I won't have trout until later.

I have a place within 20 minutes of me now that will order 5DO6 for me.


If pigs could fly bacon would be harder to come by and there would be a lot of damaged trees.






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Originally Posted By: esshup
I could talk to them and get 1,000# added to the order if you want of the 4.5mm feed, and if you really wanted larger pellet size YP feed, the small mill can run some special order 7mm YP feed. But, to run the special order, I think that has to be 1,000# minimum. I know that smaller batches can be run, but due to the labor costs being the same anything less and the price per pound really gets high.


Scott, correct this if I missed something. This is for the YP feed. (you can also delete this if you want wink )

Based on texts, and my take on it.
Minimum run from the mill for economical purposes is 20,000 lb or more. That is what they would like to run for any particular setup. Sounds reasonable, and makes an attractive price.

Minimum order within that 20,000 lb run or more is 1,000 lb. Still an attractive price.

They can combine multiple orders to hit the 20,000 lb run, but not till that benchmark is met, so it may be a while.

Or, they could run thru another mill and make smaller quantities, but the price would really suck!

That about right?

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Interesting scenario JKB. I think if I owned a business, and was launching a new product I had faith in, I would risk release a mill run and have it on the shelf so when a customer orders he can get it in a timely fashion. I would think it would turn customers off being told they will get the product someday when enough people place orders. I know I would never place a large order for any new product. I would want to try a small quantity first.

I have no idea how Optima's business plan works so please nobody take my comment as this is what they do. Just commenting to the scenario presented.

Last edited by Bill D.; 04/13/16 06:40 PM.

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Bill,

I think the problem is these guys are mainly supplying aquaculture where they buy a few tons at a time. We are not their main focus. At least I don't think so.


If pigs could fly bacon would be harder to come by and there would be a lot of damaged trees.






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Originally Posted By: Cecil Baird1
Bill,

I think the problem is these guys are mainly supplying aquaculture where they buy a few tons at a time. We are not their main focus. At least I don't think so.


That would be my take on it with the YP feed, and you know it.

I have quite a few texts from Scott, and the suggested route I got is to get into a spot on a larger run, but the minimum would be 1,000 lbs. for an order.

If that logic... Sucks... Well... They are calling the shot's on what they will or will not do.

Damn bean counters wink

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I agree Cecil. If you had 10s of thousands of dollars invested in fish, would you order a few tons of something you hadn't tried first?


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Originally Posted By: Bill D.
I agree Cecil. If you had 10s of thousands of dollars invested in fish, would you order a few tons of something you hadn't tried first?


This is well known in the proper circles that don't care about you or your pond. They make it all the time, just that it is coming to light here.

You understand?

It ain't Petco wink

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