Pond Boss Forums MANAGING AN EXISTING POND Feeding Feed research continued - Skretting

Feed experts, hoping you can chime in. Spoke with Skretting again today in my search to replace Aquamax due to lower feed rates and several other issues. Skretting recommended the following, hoping Bill Cody or others can provide some feedback.

SMB: Classic Bass formula - 48% protein, 18% crude fat, 3% fiber

HSB, YP and BG would also have access to this food - any concerns on them eating it or other impressions?

YP:

1. Steelhead formula - 46% protein, 16% crude fat, 3% fiber

or

2. Classic Trout formula - 40% protein, 12% crude fat, 3% fiber

BG would also have access to this food, same questions as above.

IIRC Cody suggested the ideal diet for YP was 45/12 - the Steelhead comes closest to matching this level.

Pricing:

Classic Bass: $34/40#
Steelhead: $32/40#
Classic Trout: $27/40#

Shipping is $20.50/bag, orders of 10 bags drops to $13/bag, and 3 pallets shipping is free.

Thanks in advance for your feedback.

I would try the classic trout formulation 40-12. Other options have too much fat shortening the life span of the adult fish. Normal adult pond sport fish do not need all that fat concentration above 8%-10%-12%. Truth be known, 12% fat is probably too high for maintaining healthy fish long term to the trophy status. Higher fat and protein is more beneficial to getting the fish from fingerling to adult. The protein:fat above 40%:8%-10% is likely not all that beneficial similar to a healthy option for the human diet. Look what happens to us when we eat too much fat and carbohydrates. Digestibility and the amount excreted of the diet is important IMO after talking to fish nutrition & physiology experts. I am not sure there are any real fish food experts that regularly attend this forum.

Look at these brook trout that Cecil Baird1 raised in his 0.1ac pond. Do they look healthy after eating high fat food - almost obese deformed? The high fat unhealthy food allows these brookies to only live a short time in Cecil's pond. Let's see if CB1 reads this and tells us what the fat content was of the food he fed those tubby trout? It was probably Amax 600 12% fat.
http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=389599

Of the fish listed what % of their food will be pellets and what % will be natural ?

There are a lot of unknowns in relation to what fish need wrt pelleted food. Much conjecture , salesmanship and marketing. Much of the known data comes from aquaculture applications for food fish. Cold/cool water fish need (can process) more protein and fat than typical pond fish. As a result most trout type food is too rich. Like what Bill is expressing.

ewest has good points. However when fish are fed daily IMO they default to eating primarily pellets because it is 'easy' and implements the Optimal Foraging Theory or concept - easiest path to a full belly. What percent of the food we eat is healthy? Those that eat healthiest tend to be healthiest individuals.

Bill - Can you enlighten us on this Optimal Theory or Concept?

Most nutrition for least amount of effort, I believe.

Sounds reasonable, but saw Bills mug on the Optimal website for BG feed and wondered how he came to the conclusions. It don't fill you in. Just gives you a testimonial... as limited as some Chinese manufacturers, but expected some meat!!!

Esshup gave me some of the feed last Friday that they used in that Bell rig for YP. Supposed to sink so the YP can snatch it on the way down, but most of it floated and stayed that way for days.

Me thinks they need to rethink this?

Optimal Forage Theory, per Bruce Condello.

http://bigbluegill.com/profiles/blogs/2036984:BlogPost:988

On the cover of a website tho, even with Optimal. What's the basis for the endorsement?

Can a guy ask? What tests have been conducted? This better than that?, and why?

Need some meat!!!

JKB I think Cody has performed some product tests on BG or HBG and the results were favorable for Optimal vs. other products. Bruce has also performed some tests with RES and results were similarly promising. It's a food designed specifically for Lepomis to improve longevity and still provide reliable growth. That's the universe of my knowledge regarding the food and tests performed, probably more out there than I'm aware.

Do not confuse 'Optimal' fish food with Optimal Foraging Theory. Optimal Foraging Theory has a history that dates back to 1966 (see link below). In its pure sense it relates more to an evolutionary concept rather than how we use it in this forum to describe fish feeding behavior (see links below). Bruce Condello first introduced forum members here to the Optimal foraging Theory as it applies to fish.

Ideal Optimal Foraging Theory (OFT)
http://www.jstor.org/stable/3565560?seq=1#page_scan_tab_contents

Optimal Diet Theory
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0003347200915926

Optimal Foraging Theory Applied to Fish
http://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007/978-94-011-7918-8_3

OFT in Bluegill
http://www.jstor.org/stable/1937507?seq=1#page_scan_tab_contents

Optimal foraging of smallmouth bass and crayfish
http://www.jstor.org/stable/1935078?seq=1#page_scan_tab_contents

Optimal foraging May Not Apply to Predator fish
http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1577/1548-8659(1993)122%3C0902%3AFTAPFA%3E2.3.CO%3B2

Disagreement Critical Review
http://www.jstor.org/stable/3565560?seq=1#page_scan_tab_contents

Optimal foraging and fear behavior
http://jmammal.oxfordjournals.org/content/80/2/385.abstract

History of the Optimal Foraging Theory
http://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007/978-1-4613-1839-2_1#page-1

JKB - FYI - "The Meat" - Here is the summary of the first 6 weeks of the green sunfish (GSF) feeding trial that was the basis for my endorsement / testimonial on the Optimal Website. esshup has a similar study using bluegill.

Six Weeks Fish Food Feeding Trial for Green Sunfish by Bill Cody
These are the results for feeding green sunfish (GSF) Aquamax 600 and Optimal Fish foods for the first six weeks of my feeding trial. Starting sizes for body length of GSF in both groups ranged from 2.625” to 3.25”. Twenty five GSF were placed into separate fish cages. Cage 1 fish were fed Aquamax and fish in Cage 2 were fed Optimal Bluegill Food. Both fish foods were hydrated prior to feeding because some of the fish appeared to be too small to eat the food of a dried large size pellet. The hydrated pellets were chopped into smaller pieces prior to feeding. Fish in both cages were fed daily to the point of satiation.

The 23 GSF (2 died) as a group eating Aquamax gained a total of 24.2495” (615.93mm) which converts to an average 0.970” (24.63mm) gain per fish.
The 25 GSF as a group eating Optimal gained a total of 32.74” (831.6mm) which converts to an average 1.423” (36.16mm) gain per fish. Not all fish gained equally in length.

After six weeks the GSF body lengths for the Aquamax group ranged from 3.0” to 4.75”. Body lengths for Optimal food were 2.75” to 5.06”. Pecking order and behavior of fish in a cage where the most dominant fish probably ate most of the food was likely the reason why some fish in each cage displayed little growth. GSF are notorious for having an aggressive dominant type of behavior.

At the end of six weeks half of the GSF from the Aquamax group were placed in a separate cage and fed Optimal. The other half of the GSF eating Aquamax continued to be fed Aquamax. Splitting the Aquamax test fish into two groups was to see if the half now eating Optimum will out perform those still eating Aquamax. The caged GSF eating Optimal continued to be fed Optimal.

My feed trial study will conclude when the water temperature drops to 60F around the first week of October 2015.

Fascinating study Bill! Any particular reason you chose GSF instead of BG for the test subjects? I look forward to you publishing the final data and conclusions in the future!

Yes it was Bill: 5D06 but the last tw months was an astaxanthin enhanced feed from Bell.

I only fed once per day about a pound per 300 lbs. of trout toward the end.

Another reason for the massive weight gain was they weren't swimming against a current as in a raceway.

Well, the Aqua Max I've been feeding for 8 years happens to have very similar formula: 41% protein; 12% fat. Looks like I'm back to square one, then - assuming the Skretting 40/12 can't be much different than the AM I've been feeding.

Bill any other suggestions on feed sources?

teehjaeh,
I know you asked Bill but have you looked at FinFish Silver by Ziegler. I do not have any experience with it but Brehm's, where I sourced my YP, switched from AM a few years back and said they were going to stick with it. Stated they were seeing better growth. It is a 40/10 mix. Only problem I have is trying to source. There is a fish farm, Fin Farm, near Bill C. that carry's it but have not seen it anywhere else.

Bill C.
Ziegler also has a product called Koi Grower, specs are

Protein Minimum 42.0%
Fat Minimum 6.0%
Fiber Maximum 3.5%

The protein being up and fat being below the range you stated, what is the down side? I assume this would be better for older fish vs younger fish?

Ben

Thanks for the clarity Bill.

For purposes of this thread , if you only feed 5 % of the required total nutritional demand by using pellets then Optimal Foraging Theory as to pellets can only apply that much. All the rest is supplied naturally. I agree with the energetics principals of the theory (not necessarily the rest) and studies provide that pelleted feeding is more efficient by a factor of between 4 and 8 X IIRC. Fish will , if possible , max energy input with the least energy output (eat pellets rather than chase bugs and fish).

However you have to look at the total diet to decide what is the "best" pellet for your situation ( ingredients , costs , results , etc.). Supplemental feeding at 10% is a lot different than meeting nutritional requirements by using 50% pellets IMO.

Im not using it all year but I had to get some Sportsman's Choice from TSC 36 percent protein and I am surprised at how good my fish are eating it. They seem to like it. I have AM600 on order and will be in this week but had nothing when I put feeder out so thought I would try some. Plus it has smaller pellets in it also... I think I may mix some in with the AM600...

RC

TJ - I would trust Skretting 40/12 more compared to the current AM 41-12 because of the recent change in AM philosophy and manufacturer and apparent changes in the AM visual quality. However if the Sk40-12 is more expensive then stick with AM or similar product. IMO we are in a transition period, learning curve and evolution for best foods for pond sportfish. It will take some time to learn what best food formulation suits adult sport fish to provide our goal of longer life span and eventual trophy size. Then the availability network has to be worked out. In the meantime we will have to use what has marginally worked for us in the past. Our goals may be too lofty for a relatively small market.

I've got 5 bags of Cargil triton on the way now. I got hooked on Aquamax back in 2008 when I first started feeding it because it was a excellent feed at a reasonable price and fish did great on it. Now it's still a good feed but it's not what it was and it cost twice as much as it did then. I hope this Cargil is a better feed cause it seems like it will be easier to get. I wish Purina would go back to the original formula and sell it for a decent price.

Thanks Ben, I have contacted Zeigler and they weren't very interested/helpful in serving small order guys like me/us or that's the impression I got. However, you do raise a great point here:

1. Would the Koi grower at 42/6 be a good formula, given Bill's comments above regarding dangers of high fat content?

Gentlemen,

In case it hasn't been addressed here, and my apologies if it has, what about carbohydrates? According to a feed researcher at Purdue, Dr. Paul Brown, carbs are the big fatty deposit maker. Furthermore he says too many carbs makes fish into functional diabetics whatever that means.

Spot on. In humans, processed/refined carbs are the number one cause of obesity. That's because they stimulate high secretions of insulin to store all the glucose, and too much insulin for too long leads to insulin resistance. Insulin resistance leads to obesity and diabetes.

I'd wondered about this before, since we now know that fat per se does not cause us to get fat. One very recent study showed that skim milk consumption is far more correlated with diabetes than whole milk, for instance. However, the digestive system of a fish is different than a mammal, so I wasn't sure what hurts us would hurt fish.

Apparently it does.