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Lets talk crappie as a forage fish for lmb. There is a lot of information here about not having crappie in a pond that is smaller than 20 acres. So, I have not stocked any crappie (crappy) in my 3.5 acre pond. But my goal is to grow extra large lmb. In my reading here, along with many discussions I have enjoyed here and with others, I still look for answers on how to get there. In what I have learned, the crappie will compete for the minnows that will feed my lmb and that results in slower growth rates of the lmb. But, when growing extra large lmb(if possible to do so), the lmb with the proper genetics will grow pretty fast to 10 lbs, feeding on FHM's amd 3 to 8" BG along with TFS, Tilapia and crawfish. But what about 15lb lmb or 18lb lmb or larger lmb? I would think most of this forage would be to small for the xl lmb and would not put weight on the lmb. So would crappie fill this nitch? What about HYB Crappie? What about male or female crappie only, added to the pond ? A 12" crappie would feed a 30" or larger lmb. I also think the crappie is less likely to choke or hang up in the throat of these larger lmb. I have seen a 4 lb lmb die with a BG hung up in their throat. As many of you know, I have stocked the CBLMB purchased from Overtons Fishery, I think these fish have the ability to grow to XL LMB. So what say you? One more thing I have seen is when using Tilapia for forage, they are introduced in April or May here and are gone in late Nov., leaving 4 to 5 months of reduced forage in the pond. The crappie would be there 12 months out of the year. Am I just hard headed here ? smile
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Tracy, I'm no help with crappie as LMB forage stocking info, but I did see this post just now on TFF and thought back to your post. I wish this guy would have gotten some measurements.
LMB death by crappie

This is my past experience with death by dinner.
LMB FLoater


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Tracy, the ONLY upside to having Crappie in a trophy LMB pond would be the Crappie spawning before the LMB, and hammering the LMB fry so you don't need to remove as many by angling. Far too many downsides for that one upside, imo. Crappie will take out the forage before the forage fish grow large enough to feed the bigger bass. Adding Crappie would most likely REDUCE LMB growth potential.

LMB don't grow on FHM after reaching 6-8". FHM are for young LMB only. Your TFS and BG are the real forage producers, and Tilapia are a huge forage maker



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Originally Posted By: Rainman
..... Crappie will take out the forage before the forage fish grow large enough to feed the bigger bass. Adding Crappie would most likely REDUCE LMB growth potential.

LMB don't grow on FHM after reaching 6-8". FHM are for young LMB only. ....


This is where I think Tracy and I share confusion. Tracy, correct me if I'm wrong.

Why not let the Crappie eat the FHM (or other minnow maybe GSH would be better), since the larger LMB won't, let the crappie control the LMB recruitment and then let the larger LMB (and people smile ) eat crappie? Leads to a LMB, Big crappie and minnow pond, assuming the crappie limit BG recruitment as well, maybe big BG? I think Pat W has a pond accidentally stocked this way right now.

Just a thought...I wonder if one reason LMB and crappie ponds fail is that the ratio of crappies to LMB initially stocked is off. Are crappies stocked at the same rate as if they are BG? Do you need to stock way less crappie to get balance?

Last edited by Bill D.; 01/02/16 06:25 PM. Reason: Clarification

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Since crappie spawn once per year in a pond, what happens to your forage base for that year if the weather is such that they don't pull off a successful spawn? BG spawn multiple times per year, so having a failed spawn for one month isn't that big of a deal.


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I was thinking stock BG as well. The crappie also need the multiple BG spawn as the LMB spawn will quickly out grow the mouth gap of the crappie.

Last edited by Bill D.; 01/02/16 07:26 PM. Reason: Clarification

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Originally Posted By: FireIsHot
Tracy, I'm no help with crappie as LMB forage stocking info, but I did see this post just now on TFF and thought back to your post. I wish this guy would have gotten some measurements.
LMB death by crappie

This is my past experience with death by dinner.
LMB FLoater


I saw death by crappie at one of our local lakes 3 or 4 years years ago, a 19"+ LMB tried to eat an 8 to 9" crappie and got the crappie stuck in its gills. Surprisingly the crappie was still alive when I pulled them apart.

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Bill D. is making some thoughtful comments for this topic. Having crappie could likely consume some to maybe significant numbers of the LMB fry (3/4"-1.5") reducing chances of too many LMB. Larger LMB fingerlings would most likely escape crappie predation fro various reasons. Using only crappie as the panfish is as esshup says "what happens when crappie have a poor spawn" which can commonly occur? What feeds the bass intended for trophy status?. Crappie are known for boom and bust spawning recruitment. For this reason, I would not use poorly spawning hybrid crappie nor only male-female crappie as a goal for producing trophy bass. For this to succeed, I think you will need as suggested, one to three additional forage species for when crappie numbers are low density. Even then, chancers of producing several 8 LB+ bass/acre is unlikely using this crappie stocking plan.

If you only want a few crappie as bonus fish the hybrid crappie or only male/female individuals are the best choice.

Crappie and bass may thrive with threadfins and or golden shiners. Large bass would eat significant numbers or sub-harvest size crappies 5"-7" whenever they are common. Problem is we don't have lots of test ponds with crappie to provide reliable information. If you are willing to risk your fishery and then be willing and able to renovate the unbalanced fishery then try your crappie idea. If it were my pond I would first allow the bass to get to the 16"-17" sizes before stocking crappie so ample numbers of bass can consume 5"-6" recruitment crappie.

This thread will be placed into the Archives in the crappie topic.

Last edited by Bill Cody; 01/03/16 03:09 PM.

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FWIW......I have healthy populations of both BCP and LMB and still have an over population of small bass.

http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=429404#Post429404

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Tracy, I'm sure no expert, but given your determination to grow REALLY BIG LMB, you might consider the following forage fish:

Gizzard Shad. Only when your bass are big enough to keep them in check, but could be worth the risk.

Golden Shiners. Less risky, and they help keep bass numbers down by eating their eggs.

Rainbow Trout. Much easier for a bass to eat than a BG or a Crappie due to their slender shape. Note that those California 18 plus pound bass got that way primarily in lakes with stocked trout.

If I were in your boots (not shoes), I'd look hard at the trout first. Lowest risk, and you would stock them right about the time the TLP play out. The trout would get sluggish when it warms in spring and either die naturally or get eaten. Size of the trout could be optimized to be ideal for the size of your bass, too.

The downside to trout is that you must keep buying them every year, like Tilapia.

Just my thoughts. Once your CMBLMB hit 10 lbs, your gonna need some pretty darn big forage! Come to think of it, there's a yappy little dog my neighbor owns that could use some swimming lessons...

Last edited by anthropic; 01/03/16 01:54 AM.

7ac 2015 CNBG RES FHM 2016 TP FLMB 2017 NLMB GSH L 2018 TP & 70 HSB PK 2019 TP RBT 2020 TFS TP 25 HSB 250 F1,L,RBT -206 2021 TFS TP GSH L,-312 2022 GSH TP CR TFS RBT -234, 2023 BG TP TFS NLMB, -160




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Fireishot,Al I feel your pain frown losing any lmb over 10 lbs out of your pond would Suck. And Bill D. we see some of the same ideas. One of the biggest problems in LMB ponds (if I understand it) is to many lmb in a pond reduces forage fish and cause stunting of lmb. Crappie spawn before lmb (in a normal yr) then feeding on lmb fry, and that may reduce the number of lmb fry, which may reduce overcrowding of lmb. But in a good crappie spawning yr, it may improve the number of 6 to 10" crappie forage for feeding XL CBlmb. This would also reduce the pressure off of the OTS CNBG which may increase size and numbers of cnbg for feeding the XL CBlmb. You would have to continue feeding the CNBG or cnbg might stunt. And Mr. Cody, and esshup, I was not thinking of having just crappie for forage, but for additional forage in the 8 to 10" size to feed XL lmb. I am also thinking of the shape of the crappie verses the shape of a 10" BG. I think of a recent picture from Flame of his dinner plate CNBG and I think of Al(fireishot). The shape of a 10" crappie looks like it might slide down the lmb easier than swallowing a dinner plate shaped bg. I also think Shorty is correct in his findings. But the crappie still looks easier to swallow over a Flame or Condello sized BG. And Rainman, I agree about the Tilapia for lmb forage, they are great, but again to my original statement, the Tp are not in the pond five months of the yr. The crappie might survive providing a larger forage all year. And Frank, I agree with you, but like Tp, trout are in our ponds for a short time, and I may add GSD as my Legacy CBLMB grow to the 6 lb range(predicted in just another yr or so) but I can't eat gizzards but I can eat crappie smile
So, as Bill Cody has said, little information on such things here, And so keeping this in mind, how would one might approach this? Would hyb crappie be a way to approach this or will they revert back to just crappie? Is it possible to select sex of a crappie, like Shorty does with RES? Any idea's here? I am thinking out loud here guys

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Originally Posted By: TGW1
......So, as Bill Cody has said, little information on such things here, And so keeping this in mind, how would one might approach this? Would hyb crappie be a way to approach this or will they revert back to just crappie? Is it possible to select sex of a crappie, like Shorty does with RES? Any idea's here? I am thinking out loud here guys

Tracy


Also thinking out loud here....I would consider stocking a limited number of BCP (both sexes). Their spawn and successive size classes will provide additional forage for every size class of LMB. By limiting stocking to a small number, you might avoid the crappie over population issue. I would think stocking single sex or limited reproductive crappie would be kind of like stocking trout or Tilapia in that they will require supplemental stocking.

I hope Pat W. sees this thread. If I'm not mistaken, his pond is stocked with LMB, BCP, CNBG and GSH? I would like to hear if he has seen any signs of BCP over population in his 5 acre.

Last edited by Bill D.; 01/03/16 08:14 AM. Reason: Clarification

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The formula for growing big LMB is pretty simple, low densities of LMB along with high densities of appropriate sized forage.

If it were me with a small pond I would stick to LMB/BG and skew the initial stocking numbers so that I ended up with a lot of stunted 3" to 5" BG and low numbers of LMB. Your initial LMB stockers will have the best potential for growing to trophy size. In addition you would want to limit structure/cover so that YOY LMB fry were easily taken care of by the stunted BG and initial LMB stockers. You could add BCP to mix after a few years once the unbalanced fishery dynamics are in place.

Keep in mind that and unbalanced fishery approach will grow big LMB, but they will not be easy to catch.

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Thanks Shorty, I am thinking I may wait a few more seasons before or if I stock some crappie. But to achieve my goal of growing XL lmb, I think it may be necessary to think outside the Box, so to speak. By stocking the Overtons Fishery CBLMB, I am sure the genetics are there to grow lmb that exceed the 12 lb mark and maybe reach those 15 and 17lb range in a relatively short period of time. But in order to do so, high forage rates are necessary, and that may reduce catch rates on artificial baits. But what if a pond is full of heavier XL lmb, would that not improve the catch rates? Assuming they are not hook shy. A 3,5 acre pond might be easier to manage over a 5 acre pond. One might be able to increase the carrying capability of the pond for XL lmb? A pond that has aeration, and good water quality can carry more total weight, if I understand it. I am not trying to build an ego here, I just want a pond full of XL LMB, with some large sized forage to keep them growing. Anthropic mentioned Rainbows along with GSD. And I think GSD are in most trophy lmb ponds. But GSD make a terrible meal for the pond owner, and so I was thinking crappie might fill that nitch. They are great eating for pond owners and I was thinking the shape and size might make great eating for XL CBLMB. Bill D. invited Pat to come in, his pond is fairly new (I think) but the last report I saw, he was having trouble catching crappie and had lmb most everywhere. Maybe he will post up his experience. His pond is slightly larger than mine by 1+ acre or so.
Question here, why does there have to be fewer XL lmb in a pond? If pond is full of forage, why are there reduced numbers of XL LMB?

Tracy

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Last edited by TGW1; 01/03/16 09:25 AM. Reason: question added

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Tracy -

You can have a lot of large LMB in a body of water. I fished a pond regularly for 3 months and almost every LMB landed was at least 5 lbs, and in any given week many 10+ LMBs were landed.

A couple of variables for this pond:
- Catch and release for all LMB
- Loads of forage fish in the pond, and on average 3 meals pumped in 5 days each week form a 6" diameter pipe (baitshop pumped out their dead and dying and weak baitfish into the pond)


This pond has turned over twice that I know of in the past 8 years. This Summer it turned over and it was amazing to see the entire pond surface covered in fish, many dead but many standing upright gasping for oxygen. The number of dead LMB in the 5-8 lb range was in more than 3 dozen. There were over 20 LMB larger than 10 lbs.

This pond has a surface area of approximately 1 acre, average depth of 6.5 feet.

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Tracy,

What do you think of the trout idea? They would seem to fill that good for LMB and for people to eat niche you describe without the overpopulation problem.

I've seen what happens when you feed LMB trout at Castaic Lake in California. That's where the -teen pounders are coming from.

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Tracy, IMHO, you've built a very strong foundation for your LMB growth. I would personally let that foundation cure a smidge before I amended my plans. You can always add fish, but it can be tough to get rid of the one's you don't want after the fact.


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I would go the Trout route before going the Crappie route. For growing large LMB, all you have to do is look at the historical data from the California Reservoirs. Castiac, Dixon, Casitas, Miramar Reservoir, etc. All of them get winter stockings of Rainbow Trout on a weekly or bi-weekly basis. RBT have a lot of calories per mouthful, more so than Crappie.

Here's a link to the Ca DF&W stocking dates for RBT. Look at the frequency that they plant them, and then bounce around the different lakes to see what fish species are in them, and the stocking rates.

For instance, look at the frequency and rate of RBT stocking in Castiac:
http://www.castaiclake.com/fishing.html

Keep in mind that the lake is 2,400 acres. BUT, you can see that they stocked 8,000 pounds of RBT in November alone one year..... shocked


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Originally Posted By: esshup
Keep in mind that the lake is 2,400 acres. BUT, you can see that they stocked 8,000 pounds of RBT in November alone one year..... shocked



Yep, trout are certainly one of the best LMB options, and I really, really wish they'd live here for 5-6 months. That would sure make the tilapia/trout forage combo a game changer. In our area, retail on those 8,000 pounds of RBT would be $80,000.


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Originally Posted By: FireIsHot
Yep, trout are certainly one of the best LMB options, and I really, really wish they'd live here for 5-6 months. That would sure make the tilapia/trout forage combo a game changer. In our area, retail on those 8,000 pounds of RBT would be $80,000.


Crowley Lake near Mammoth is 5,280 acres and "is stocked with hundreds of thousands of small and medium sized trout" per year and they expect a typical catch rate of 50,000 RBT just on the trout opening day weekend alone.

There's 23 hatcheries in California, and I have no idea how many trout they raise for stocking annually. They typically would stock streams and reservoirs every week or at a minimum, every two weeks. When you consider how big the state is, and all the waters that they stock, that's a heck of a lot of fish!! They won't survive the warm weather in the streams further South in the state, but some would live all year long in the reservoirs due to their water clarity and depth. BUT, a lot were eaten by LMB in the reservoirs too!! It's not usual to have a catfish and trout fishery in the same BOW, but out there it was common.

How 'bout a 113 pound Blue Cat? https://www.wonews.com/t-SCFreshReport-BRADLEYSchweit-091808.aspx

When I lived there, every year they would stock some of the brooder trout in some of the streams. Those fish are 10-20 pounds each.

Trout fishing in Ca. is a big thing, and lots of people make the pilgrimage every year to the mountain streams for the opener of trout season. A friend had a timeshare there, and we would make the 6+ hr drive (370 miles) every year for the opener and fish the whole weekend.

I remember one day just walking a few streams with his son, who was around 12-13. We flat wore out a few rooster tail spinners that day, I remember catching slightly over 100 trout one day; all the hair was worn off of the spinner before the end of that day. The hold over fish in Crowley Lake from the previous year all had red flesh, that's how you could tell them from the stockers.


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Scott, I was at a seminar one time, and Byron Velvick was hanging around and talked about his high school years fishing the trout stockings in CA. He said the LMB learned that fish hauling trucks meant an easy meal, and they would literally follow the hatchery trucks as they drove across the dam to the ramp the RBT were dumped at. He was still smiling as he related the story.

Isn't CA where the super big swimbaits originated?

Last edited by FireIsHot; 01/03/16 12:44 PM.

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That's them. I actually have a 7" wooden articulated BG swimbait that's pretty cool. Only problem is I don't have any rods that'll throw a 3oz bait.


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I think to grow the higher numbers of large bass in a relative small pond as in TGW1's plan, he needs to be prepared to periodically supplementally stock forage similar to that described by basslover(stressed bait)and esshup(trout). Excess, easy catch forage is key especially for higher numbers of bass pushing carrying capacity in the smaller pond. Adding diversity of forage is also important to provide easy meals for big bass in all seasons. Dying tilapia in fall, haul stress trout in winter and then dying in late spring(TX), and other 'regular' mid-sized fish in the warm season. Big bass thrive on easy meals (following the trout stock trucks example). IMO big predators rely heavily on weak, stressed fish who many of them are likely senescent injured fish and no one else is big enough to eat them. This is where threadfins can be important since they are low temperature sensitive.

Since BG are not known to live long in the south and they as dying maybe stunted fish at 6"-8" long, are good meals for the largest bass. IMO ideally to grow higher numbers of trophy class bass in a smaller pond (>10Ac) one should have a forage pond devoted to growing optimum, frequent, add-stock forage for big bass. Be the equivalent of your own state trout stocking operation.

Get your biggest bass accustomed to your adding easy catch meals. Bruce Condello does a version of this to grow this large prize catch bass. Even if one has to catch the forage from their own pond, stress it, and add it as easy catch bass food. It's not easy nor quick,,,, but it reliably produces excellent results. My dad and I were doing this to grow big bass back in the late 1960's using fish collected weekly from the creek stressing the fish and hand feeding a frenzy of big pond bass.

Another example: This summer in May I had a left over 8.0" SMB in a cage. Three to four times weekly, I added to the cage 6-12 tail clipped GSF(2"-3") from my pond. In mid summer when water was 78F-83F the bass would eat 4-5 GSF per day. By end of October the Smallie was 12.5" long.

Last edited by Bill Cody; 01/03/16 03:55 PM.

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Tracy
I do have crappie and the bass that were bucket stocked have pretty much taken over eating the forage. Was reeling in a 7 " crappie and a 4+ lb bass sucked it down, I foufht it for a while till it gave up and spit out the crappie sans scales, so I do know that they will eat crappie 7" and up fairly easily. Had this happen on several occasions. For a while I was catching lots of crappie up to 12" but now only catch 7-8" ones . Since the rain have not caught any crappie at all......since my pond is new I wasn't ready for bass untill the crappie got off their first spawn- which is what I'm now catching as 7". Not really sure what happened to the 10-14" stockers that were put in originally. There is no YOY cnbg that I can see just 8" YOY bass . They got ahead of BG and have cleaned them out. I am culling all bass till I start to see YOY CNBG again. Never saw the first baby tilapia and still haven't seen any dead tilapias from the cold. It is a hit or miss thing going on.

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by FishinRod - 12/05/24 10:18 AM
Red-tailed Hawks
by FishinRod - 12/05/24 10:12 AM
Killing pond and starting over
by Dave Davidson1 - 12/04/24 07:16 PM
Nutria
by J. E. Craig - 12/03/24 04:10 PM
Newly Uploaded Images
Koi
Koi
by PAfarmPondPGH69, October 22
2 1/4 pound BGxRES
2 1/4 pound BGxRES
by Theo Gallus, October 12
What you can do with an inch of nightcrawler
What you can do with an inch of nightcrawler
by Theo Gallus, September 21
How to Out Condello Bruce Condello ...
How to Out Condello Bruce Condello ...
by Theo Gallus, August 3
Major change since 2009
Major change since 2009
by SENKOSAM, July 3
Fishing with my Best Buddy
Fishing with my Best Buddy
by Theo Gallus, June 29

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