Pond Boss Forums STOCKING A NEW POND Types of fish to choose HSB HBG question

Thanks to everybody for their inputs!

Ok to summarize what I think I have learned is:

1) Northern BG can live and perform well in both the South and the North. CNBG are less tolerant to cold temperature than the Northern BG.

2) There is no significant advantage in size or growth rate between CNBG and Northern BG.

Conclusion is there is no advantage in trying to inject some CNBG genetics into my Northern BG and it might actually be a detriment from a temperature tolerance standpoint.

Guess I will forego stocking any CNBG

I'm not convinced 100% about the growth rates, but the differences in water temp could account for that.

BUT for us up here, unless proven otherwise, CNBG or CNBG hybrids are not the best choice. I'd still go with Northern Strain.

Now, who's to say that 2, 3, 5 years down the road there might be a hybrid that can withstand the cold???

Remember, this IS the place for cutting edge pond stuff!!

See red for notes.

Agree

Ewest, providing the temp tolerance issue could be resolved, what's your thoughts on hybrid vigor coming into play with a CNBG/BG cross?

So, if we assume optimum conditions for BOTH species, does one have the potential for greater growth (ultimate size) than the other? I have a hard time buying into that. If we strip away environmental benefits, quicker initial growth, and the potential of both strains to produce exceptional individuals (shooters), can we not arrive at an average, ultimate potential?

Is there a benefit of incorporating CNBG genetics into northern strain fish? We hear a lot about the benefits of CNBG, and I'm pretty confident that I've read everything here in the archives, as well as accumulated info from several different sources, but thus far most studies appear to be under pretty tightly controlled conditions. What about real-life ponds, in real life scenarios?

Are coppernose really the BG equivalent of the Golden Child, or is it more along the lines of what I believe, which is simply a case of geographic optimization?

And what about genetic enhancements? Overton CNBG, or Condello strain BG?

Tony:

My gut is telling me it's a case of geographic optimization like you said.

But, if a CNBG grows faster out of the gate, and the Northern grows longer, I wonder what could happen if there was a F1 cross if Hybrid Vigor also came into play?

has any one done a test in a southern climate by measuring growth of Standard and CN BG side by side.

Good question. And to ponder further, if hybrid vigor in the form of northern longevity combined with the coppernose quicker initial growth could be achieved, would it be limited to F1 fish only?

Comment has been: "2) There is no significant advantage in size or growth rate between CNBG and Northern BG. ""Not so - all species grow faster/do better under optimum conditions for that species - so CNBG do better /grow faster in the south and BG do better/grow faster up north.- ewest""

Is there research that shows the true Northern BG growth lags behind that of the CNBG if both are raised in the south with the same long growing season and optimum food? I would like to see that data. If there are studies on this topic they likely did not follow the growth of the study fish for more than 1-2 yrs or to a size of 8"-10".

IMO one of the main features that slows growth of good quality genetics of northern BG is the comparatively short growing season they have where growth is minimal during late Oct, Nov, Dec, Jan, Feb, Mar and most of April (less than 60F) which equates to about 6 months of little or no growth where ave daily water temps is 50F or below. (See more discussion of this in my post below). As I recall Lusk says the pure strain southern BG is not the same strain of BG as the pure strain Northern BG. Does anyone else remember reading this?? Cecil Baird and others that raise northern BG indoors in warm temperatures, in optimum conditions achieve excellent growth for these fish. This initial or rearly growth rate would, could, should rival growth of CNBG of the southern part of the US.

Why wouldn't a close to the same specie of fish grow faster (larger) if it was able (60F) to grow about twice as long during a year assuming food was not limiting? Has anyone actually done this using something close to scientific method? Test fish should should be an enhanced northern BG such as Condello strain and a proven quality CNBG. Arn't the largest individuals of pure strain BG and CNBG in Richmond Mill similar sized??? I have never personally seen them so I am just asking the question. Those that have fished Richmond Mill should be able to comment.

Next question would be....Are there BG x CNBG hybrids in Richmond Mill and how do they perform?

Light reading, no idea how accurate.

http://www.louisianasportsman.com/details.php?id=2579

Inquiring minds want to learn and know. Some southern PB Forum member should be capapble of conducting this study.

Sprkplug offers an interesting article. However, note the pure strain BG used in the studies were TX bluegill which Lusk considers inferior to Northern BG that came from quality stock such as Condello Strain BG or northern lakes known to grow high qualtiy large 10"-11" BG stock.

We're using the term "hybrid" pretty loosely here, I believe. Wouldn't the cross of a northern and CNBG be an intergrade?

I agree intergrade would be a better term for a cross of BG X CNBG i.e. two subspecies, varieties, or forms, whereas hybrid is a cross of two different species . Here is what the reptile 'people' think which probably agrees with most biologists.
http://www.hybridherps.com/forum/index.php?topic=60.0

Interesting. Would cross of a Southern YP with a Northern YP be an "intergrade" also?

I would think so.

Bill C. Lusk says that we have the same optimal growing days for LMB up here as in Texas, I wonder if the same applies to BG?

I agree, that the fish would not be a hybrid.

Sparkie, Thanks for the copy posted from Louisiana Sportsman. Looks to be some good info. As many of you know, I am very close to Caddo lake which is known for its brim fishing. Brim fishing guides are available on the lake. I have considered transplanting some native BG from Caddo to my pond with OTS cnbg but after seeing the info on E Texas BG, I think I may leave the pond like it is. We will usually fish for brim in Caddo starting in April or May. Catching BG, RES and Warmouth or Rock Bass, Goggle eye or whatever you want to call them. The Warmouth is the best eating for my taste and I fish for them different from the BG. The CNBG will outgrow in size and at a faster rate over the native BG if I understand the information provided here by the Louisiana Sportsman. And Esshup, I know Mr. Lusk is "The Man". But, my first thought of optimal growing days in Ind. verses Texas can't be right. Texas weather is very different even when comparison is made within Texas borders. N. W. Texas is very different from S.E. Texas or E. Texas. So if it's all about warmer water temps for more aggressive feeding behavior, then Optimal growing days can't be the same. Can it?

Tracy

Tracy, I'm also a big fan of fishing for Goggle Eyes. Of course that name means different things to different folks, depending upon geography. Around here, I see it applied to both Warmouth and Rockbass with equal fervor. If you're curious about what species you're catching, take a look at the anal fin. Warmouths have three rigid, sharp spines, while Rockbass will have six.

They both taste pretty good though.

esshup - "Bill C. Lusk says that we have the same optimal growing days for LMB up here (north central Indiana) as in Texas, I wonder if the same applies to BG?'

esshup - maybe you missunderstood what Lusk was saying?????

I strongly disagree as a 'doubting thomas' with Lusk on this. I would like to hear his rationale on this topic. How can there be same temperature degree growing days for fish and plants in Ohio as Texas? Water warms up faster in Spring in TX than in Ohio thus more days in TX with water above 55F-60F for fish growth in TX than Ohio. His comment does not make common sense to me.

In a nutshell and put into numbers, growing degree days (GDDs) accumulate anytime the average temperature for the day is more than 50 F. Commonly used terms for thermal time are Growing Degree Days (GDDs), Growing Degree Units (GDUs), or heat units (HUs).
Fish are cold blooded and their body temperature is closely related to the air/water temperature similar to plant growth. Body growth occurs in many types of plants and warm water fish when the water temperature reaches 50F. As the temperature increases generaly the growth increases until a upper optimum temperature is reached and then growth tends to slow or decrease depending on the species.

To calculate GDD see this example, if the high for the day was 70 F and the low was 40 F, the average temperature was 55, and so 5 GDDs accumulated. The GDDs for each day are added to the previous total. (When the average temperature for the day is below 50 F, it is ignored. It is not subtracted from the total.)

For those who prefer formulas, it looks like this:
Max Temp. + Min. Temp. / 2 minus 50F = Daily GDD
In my experience with water temperature the average daily temperature is often close to the water temperature.

It stands to my reasoning that when an area or region has more GGDs or time when average temps are above 50F, this will equate to more days per year when that organism (bass, BG, many other fish and plants) will be actively absorbing nutrition and growing.

As an example the GDDs for Dallas TX area are normally around 5986 GDDs per year that bass can have adequate temperature (50F+) for growth. However in Northwest OH the GDDs are around 2910 GDDs /yr when bass growth could occur in Ave. air/water temp of 50F+. Dallas area has slightly over twice the GDDs than those of NW OH. I do not understand how Lusk thinks two similar LMbass each with unlimited food and in similar conditions will have the same optimal growing days when one has twice the GDDs as the other that has one half the GDDs. What am I missing here?

FYI Reference Reading:
http://agron-www.agron.iastate.edu/Courses/agron212/Calculations/GDD.htm

GIS Interactive GDDsMaps to see what the normal and current GDDs are for your area of the country.
http://pnwpest.org/US/
When choosing a map and location make sure you choose the map set that has the proper base temperature or lower temperature threshold. For fish growth use the 50F lower temp threshold map choice not the 32F nor 41F maps.

Can the temperature get too warm for fish to actively feed and,if so, should those day's GDD numbers be subtracted from the total?

Yes temperature can get too warm for active 'feeding'- growth for both plants and animals depending on the adaptation of each specie. Trout are a good example of this feature. Most warm water fish have a relatively high upper active temperature tolerance or limit. Rarely do ponds with some depth and good habitat diversity (cool water refuge) reach those maximums throughout the entire water column for most warm water fish. Continually aerated ponds will have fewer cool water refuge areas. If one is keenly interested in this topic, they can do some homework to learn more about how to adjust the GDD for temperatures that are above the optimum for the specie they are interested in learning more about. This concept or practice is commonly performed for field corn.

The graph and description in the link above and repeated here briefly explain this phenomonon.
http://agron-www.agron.iastate.edu/Courses/agron212/Calculations/GDD.htm

Bill C, I think the key to Bob's comment is "optimal" growing days. I think he's meaning when the water temp is between "X" degrees and "X" degrees. Neither too hot nor too cold.

But like you, I have a hard time believing it.

"Trust but verify" and I haven't been able to verify it yet.

Numerous members here and others have documented the good (measureable) fish growth can occur in water temperatures several degrees upto 10F degrees above and below those commonly listed as optimal growth temperature range. Ewest might be able to locate some literature that documents growth for one or several species above & below optimal observed growth temps? Bluegill will start actively feeding at 41F (thus can't one assume noticeable growth occurs at 55F temperature? Bluegill in Ontario were reported to feed consistently at 46F-50F. I will do a little searching on this topic in my literature.

Bluegill are reported to have optimum growth at 86F with still very good growth at 77F to 82F. Lowest conversion efficiency was at 94F when fish were tested at 77-94F. Complete digestion of food in stomachs occurred in 18hrs at 64F. Bluegills were found to feed under the ice at 0.8% of the body mass. Growth at these 39F was not reported.

As best as I can determine from my readings, most of the annual growth for northern BG occurs starting and ending at mid 60F. Interestingly many recommendations for beginning feeding pellet to BG is 60F. Interestingly one report mentioned that juvenile BG in a Southern MI pond grew through the winter adding 20% in length and 50% in mass.

I will find some info on this .

BG optimum growth and optimum feeding temps are a little different . That is max feeding is at a different temp than max growth rate .