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#337394 06/02/13 01:52 PM
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The question is more specific to a quarter acre pond, but I am sure it would apply to larger bodies as well.

Once the FHM's are all ate up, will the HSB be enough to control recruitment of the HBG off spring? If we assume 30-50 HSB in an aerated and fed pond, will that be enough to control the HBG and RES offspring? If not (which I believe is the case) What would be the BEST predetor to do that and the stocking rate for it? I am thinking about blue cat, or channel cat since they will also get large, but am unsure on the quantity.

The next question is if I make this a put an take pond which I would take very minimal fish maybe even assume catch and release only, how often should I add new stock? Would the stocked channel cats just eat my new stockers? Does this mean I will have to use grow out cages on all the new stock?

What are the chances of the HSB not eating the feed?


Is a HSB ONLY pond possible? Have 100 percent of my carrying capacity in pellet trained HSB? If they only eat pellets and there is no other natural forage, what does that do to the fishing techniques used in the fishery?

I am contemplating trying this to see what happens then if I get tired of it stocking the HBG once I know it does or does not work.


For a put and take HSB/HBG pond do I need anything more than a small spawning ground (if any) and a few fish attractors to localize the fish?

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First, I think having an HSB only pond is very feasible. In fact, if you really have no interest in HBG, why stock them? I would consider stocking a few RES as their reproductive rates are minimal and they will shine without competition from any other Lepomis species. If I was doing a HSB/Sunfish pond, I would chose RES over HBG personally. In the absence of other Lepomids, RES will often be easier to catch as they will spread into the niche otherwise taken by BG or HBG.

To control HBG with only HSB, especially HSB that are feeding mostly on pellets there are a few things you should focus on. First is to limit the amount of cover in your pond. It is not needed or wanted... That includes aquatic vegetation, sunken trees, rock piles or other places where YOY or even fingerling F2 and late generation HBG can take cover. Second, before stocking the HBG, you should have the HSB be fairly advanced in size. I would say at least 12" and 16" would be better. This ensures they will have a mouth large enough to effectively prey on any F2 HBG born in the pond. Remember, HSB have mouths that are substantially smaller than LMB for example. Third, there is no need for any additional forage in a pond where HSB are the primary predator of the F2 HBG. Adding GSH or FHM will just mean the HSB will focus more on them and less on your HBG offspring.

To assist the HSB in keeping HBG reproduction under control, CC or blue catfish can be used. In a smaller 1/4 acre pond, just a handful of CC or even 1 blue catfish may be all that is needed. Once the catfish reach 20" or so, they should be removed and restocked with 10"-12" catfish. Unless one really has a desire to grow larger catfish. However in a 1/4 pond, that is probably not the best use of the available biomass.

The use of 1 LMB can also be effective in a 1/4 pond. In a larger pond, say up to 1 acre the use of 4-6 single sex LMB can be used. I would focus on capturing male LMB in the spring when they can be easily sexed. Their growth rates are slower and they should remain in the target size of 10"-15" range for a longer period of time before they should be removed in favor of smaller LMB. The idea is the have LMB that are focusing on removing the 2"-4" HBG F2 offspring. It is very easy to collect single sex crappies in the spring. They may also be an option to help control HBG reproduction in a HSB/HBG pond. Collecting a 1 to 2 dozen all female or all male crappies is not a difficult task when fishing a pond that holds them. Sexing crappies in the spring when they are spawning is very easy.

Most hatcheries offer HBG in the 4" range and some will offer fish up to 6". However, HBG do well in cages and this may be the best method to ensure the fish you release have high survival rates. Keeping them caged until they are 6" and then releasing them into the pond. You can cull out slower growing caged fish in favor of the fastest growing ones. By this size, the few females in the HBG population can also usually be picked out as well, minimizing reproduction by your HBG that much more.

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Lots of good questions here....experts will weigh in, but a couple questions for you-
What are pond contours-steep sides,depths etc.
Is there any cover to protect yoy HBG/RES?

If you have a vigorous population of HSB, in several size classes, and a pond in which there is little cover for yoy, it's very possible they'll control the offspring, IMHO with one 1/2 acre pond.

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I would definatly like some sort of panfish or smaller fish for some hook n bobberin for the kids maybe yellow perch?. The only cover I really plan on putting in is going to be a fish attracter near the dock to bring the panfish closer to the dock.

Three sides will be either a 3-1 or a 4-1 and one side a 6-1 w/ a peagravel beach. 10-12 feet deep

I don't HAVE to add any other cover.

I am OK w/ RES only as well, I have just read where they are not as easy to catch and don't grow near as big.

Perhaps I should provide SOME cover for the RES (or whatever other panfish) so I have a sustainable source for some fish fry's w/out having to restock.

With a HSB only pond I think if I can figure out what the nature of the fishing would be and it being fish heavy I can probably get some good action for a while, and as I start eating some of them the rest will only get bigger. Eventually I could restock and release any fish over say 16"?

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Only HSB will adequately control the HBG or RES. HSB at 30-50 in a 0.25 ac pond is 120-200/ac and gives lots of predator "force". Bruce Condello a member here raised primarily HSB in a pond - he has experience. He may respond. If you use the HSB as the main predator on the RES or HBG, I would plan to periodically add smaller 4"-8" HSB and remove the largest ones as they are occasionally caught. Smaller HSB will better utilize the young of year sunfish 1"-3" compared to the larger 20"+ HSB. I think 20-30 HSB would be enough for your predator density. If necessary you can withhold pellets to HSB & HBG to get the HSB to selectively prey temporarily more on young HBG.

I would omit all catfish since they will eat pellets as hogs, grow large, be difficult to remove, tie up sport fish biomass, and also eat the add stocker HGB or larger RES. If you want to eat CC then use them otherwise they will IMO be problems for your stated goals. Larger add stock RES (5"-7") will be very, very difficult to regularly locate unless you live close to an unusual or atypical fish farm. RES are also very difficult to raise to larger sizes in a cage compared to HBG. I think that using HBG and RES together could result in a hybrid cross between the two species. I think the HBG would be an overall better panfish to use compared to HBG & RES.

CJ IMO also provides good advice and ideas.


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What about a small amount of RES for "swimmers itch" in addition to the HBG?

I am really curios how consistant of a fishery a HSB dominant pond can become. My dad and I fish for HSB on lake Cumberland and they can be some VERY tempermental fish. Last thing I want to do is stock a fish I can only occasionally catch.

I could care less about catfish, they just seem to always be recommended in this type of environment.

Last edited by Indygunworks; 06/02/13 02:51 PM.
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Main problem with HSB in a small pond is they become hook smart. Catching them in the heat of mid summer is very stressful to them and often leads to their death. To reduce this, fish primarily when water is lower than 80F, minimize catch and release, restock periodically with 6"-8"ers, and don't fish frequently nor for very long each time. Spend your time at the pond managing the plants, monitoring -maintaining water quality and feeding the fish. Another option is to stock a fish that can be angled when the water is warmest.

Last edited by Bill Cody; 06/02/13 08:53 PM.

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We stock HBG together with RES, and male BG. To date, I haven't witnessed any crosses between the HBG and the RES. That's not saying it hasn't happened, only that we've never seen any. We control HBG recruitment with LMB....LOTS of LMB. And I never bothered with single sex fish. After four years I have yet to see any sign of LMB recruitment. I know there's some, but I seriously wonder if the combination of a pond with NO cover or vegetation, a population of "forage" that is 90-95% male, and coupled with an extremely heavy Bass population has resulted in a situation whereby the Bass have almost become self-limiting.....they appear to be eating their own offspring quite handily. I've spoken here before about the large numbers of our LMB that have taken to pelleted feed. Perhaps this will result in less predation of ALL species of YOY fish as time goes on?

We fished today for just over an hour. Out of 22 fish we had 15 HBG over a pound, with nearly half of those 15 over 1.25 lbs. We also caught 3 skinny LMB. (10-12") After four years with this scenario it appears to be working, but that's certainly not definitive proof.

We also have 100 HBG in a cage right now, growing out before releasing into the pond. It's an annual procedure for us, with the number of fish stocked yearly being the only variable.

While I will be the first to say HBG aren't right for every situation, they can really shine when used appropriately.

My youngest, with one from today. Simple worm and float fishing:




"Forget pounds and ounces, I'm figuring displacement!"

If we accept that: MBG(+)FGSF(=)HBG(F1)
And we surmise that: BG(>)HBG(F1) while GSF(<)HBG(F1)
Would it hold true that: HBG(F1)(+)AM500(x)q.d.(=)1.5lbGRWT?
PB answer: It depends.
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Just curious. Question on HBG. Do folks down south have CNBG x GSF to stock as HBG or are their HBG the same as the northern ones?

Last edited by Bill D.; 12/19/15 04:09 PM.

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Bill, I do not have an absolute answer for you, but on the Dunn's web site when I ordered some RES and CNBG, they also listed HBG but I see no where did they offer northern BG. So I would deduce they were using CNBG males and GSF females. But that is just my assumption.

Edit: I correct myself. Checked on their web site just now.
http://www.dunnsfishfarm.com/fish_pricing.htm

Said the HBG are either GSFx native BG or CNBG. So I guess it could be either. Pot luck maybe.

Last edited by snrub; 12/19/15 06:31 PM.

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Thanks Snrub,

I wonder if the CNBG x GSF would be more cold hearty than the CNBG? Would be an interesting thing to try in my N. Illinois pond as a little experiment.


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Dunno. GSF are tough critters. Them and bullheads can survive about anything it seems. Maybe the CNBG/GSF cross would gain some of the hardiness of the beloved GSF.


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snrub #432109 12/20/15 08:51 AM
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Originally Posted By: snrub
...Said the HBG are either GSFx native BG or CNBG. So I guess it could be either. Pot luck maybe.

Snrub, that's what I'm wondering. They sell CNBG, but not Northern BG. Maybe they buy the HBG fry?


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This brings up another question. Say you have a pond that is at the edge of the Northern range of CNBG and the edge of the Southern range of Northern BG. Both will perform to their potential in your hypothetical pond. Which one do you stock? Is one more desirable than the other?

Last edited by Bill D.; 12/20/15 06:34 PM.

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Originally Posted By: Bill D.
This brings up another question. Say you have a pond that is at the edge of the Northern range of CNBG and the edge of the Southern range of Northern BG. Both will perform to their potential in your hypothetical pond. Which one do you stock? Is one more desirable than the other?


I'm going to hedge my bet by stocking northern strain. If the CNBG are at their northernmost limit, then an extended cold spell might spell their demise. The native BG will be fine in warmer water.

Plus, I'm not convinced CNBG will grow any larger than northern BG, given the same conditions.


"Forget pounds and ounces, I'm figuring displacement!"

If we accept that: MBG(+)FGSF(=)HBG(F1)
And we surmise that: BG(>)HBG(F1) while GSF(<)HBG(F1)
Would it hold true that: HBG(F1)(+)AM500(x)q.d.(=)1.5lbGRWT?
PB answer: It depends.
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Originally Posted By: Bill D.
This brings up another question. Say you have a pond that is at the edge of the Northern range of CNBG and the edge of the Southern range of Northern BG. Both will perform to their potential in your hypothetical pond. Which one do you stock? Is one more desirable than the other?


As far as I know, there is no edge to the southern range of Northern BG. They will survive just fine in the same climate as CNBG.


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3/4 to 1 1/4 ac pond LMB, SMB, PS, BG, RES, CC, YP, Bardello BG, (RBT & Blue Tilapia - seasonal).
esshup #432189 12/21/15 08:02 AM
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Originally Posted By: esshup
Originally Posted By: Bill D.
This brings up another question. Say you have a pond that is at the edge of the Northern range of CNBG and the edge of the Southern range of Northern BG. Both will perform to their potential in your hypothetical pond. Which one do you stock? Is one more desirable than the other?


As far as I know, there is no edge to the southern range of Northern BG. They will survive just fine in the same climate as CNBG.


Then the question is why do all the Southern folks stock CNBG instead of the Northern BG?


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I think it's partly due to geographic optimization, as in it's often stated that CNBG will grow quicker in southern waters than northern strain will. And, I'll just go ahead and say it....many are convinced that CNBG will outgrow northern fish given the same conditions. it's been "standard knowledge" for a long time. Does that mean it's correct? I don't think so. If it were, shouldn't we be seeing two pound coppers everywhere we look? I've seen Richmond Mill giant bluegills of BOTH strains.

I think there's always a tradeoff somewhere. Coppers grow quicker, but northerns live longer. Both have indeterminate growth.


"Forget pounds and ounces, I'm figuring displacement!"

If we accept that: MBG(+)FGSF(=)HBG(F1)
And we surmise that: BG(>)HBG(F1) while GSF(<)HBG(F1)
Would it hold true that: HBG(F1)(+)AM500(x)q.d.(=)1.5lbGRWT?
PB answer: It depends.
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Bill I wondered the same questions after my pond was already stocked with local (Kansas) raised northern brood stock.

When I built the sediment pond, my intention was to put only RES and FHM in it. But about that time there was some really nice pics of CNBG be posted and I thought how pretty the fish were. So when I ordered the 200 RES to put in said pond, on a lark I also ordered 100 CNBG.

My thinking, right or wrong, was that the genetic diversity introduced to my main pond (once the CNBG spawned and populated the sediment pond, it was only a matter of time till they migrated via the runoff into the main pond) would not likely hurt anything and might help. The CNBG would be a tiny portion of the genetic base since the main pond was already populated by northern BG. My thinking was that I was probably on the northern limit of where CNBG might do "ok". I doubted they were the optimum choice for my latitude but no one knew for sure.

Any way, right or wrong, that was my thinking. I think it will be interesting over the years to see if more CNBG traits show up in my catch rate or if they just kind of go by the wayside and the northern BG remain the dominant trait. I figure at least an original stocker of the CNBG will be a novelty catch occasionally.

Last edited by snrub; 12/21/15 11:06 AM.

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No personal experience...just stuff I read (it's on the internet, it has to be true right?). The coppernose grow faster their first-year, giving higher survival rates for their first season. This also means larger bluegill, sooner to feed bass. They also breed longer into fall, giving more offspring.

Sean

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All interesting info. I wonder if the reason the CNBG grow faster and spawn later is because they live in an environment that gives them more "warm" water feeding/spawning days per year than the Northern BG get?


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The reason I am asking all the questions is I am considering stocking a few adult single sex CNBG in my pond with my Northern BG the spring of 2017. That would give them all summer to find a mate and cross with the Northern BG. I could, hopefully, see if a CNBG x Northern BG cross and/or pure CNBG could survive one of our northern winters and, if they do, how they perform.

Last edited by Bill D.; 12/21/15 07:58 PM. Reason: Typo

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My understanding is that the faster growing of the CNBG is just for the first couple months of their life.

I too wondered about the longer breeding season...but took for granted that was taken into account.

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Lusk says it and I've learned, over the years, to not disagree with the guy. I'll just say that I've seen no difference.


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