Pond Boss Forums INTRO Questions & Observations Triploid vs Donaldson Rainbow trout

Exploring feasibility/legality of introducing
a trout species to a approx 2.5 surface acre
lake in Western Washington.

Lake has a mud bottom (10 feet deep), 7 gallon
per minute flow rate during driest period of
summer, a modest stocking of 5 to 8 inch
cutthroat trout, no forage minnow fish,
vertical outflow stand pipe (rigged to be
beaver proof), and surrounded with maturing
second growth timber (ie edges of pond are
shaded even into the summer months).

Objective is to create a fisheries that would
yield some respectable sized eating fish. For
years the pond has only produced a puny offering
of small cutthroat trout (10 inches is a whopper)

The pond is 30 miles from home making feeding
unrealistic. Any automatic feeder would be
vandalized in no time.

Suspect poachers, king fishers, transient otters,
and lack of forage fish to be negatively impacting
quality and quantity of fish.

Know the cutthroat would be cannibalistic to
new introduced fish....

(F&W dept forbids stocking of mosquito fish, Gambusis, or Fat head minnows....non-native)

Any advice as to best way to proceed?

Obviously Triploid trout would have to be
periodically restocked whereas Donaldson have
a possibility of regenerating. Suspect the
Triploids would have faster growth rates and
pass forage fish size to the existing cutthroat
population.

Your thoughts.

Trout Doubt (aka Bullhead Bob)

Hey B.Bob - Welcome back. Trout are not my expertise. Maybe we can get a trout expert (Cecil??) to contribute. However, here is my 2 cents for your problem.
If you do everything necessary to create a viable fishery in your remote 2.5 ac pond,, what is to prevent poachers etc. from decimating the fishery once you get it established? They don't bother it too much now because of the "puny offerings". But produce some whoppers and see how things will change! A remote accessable pond is nothing but a huge, stealing fish, fisherman mangnet. Sad but true.
Cutthroat trout can easily get some size (23-24"). Five pounders have been reported from lakes. As in any other fishery, if you reduce the predator density more food remains for the surviving fish; be they bass, bgill, walleye or trout.

Washington state HAS to have native minnows that will survive & thrive in your pond. Here is how I would proceed.

Firstly, heavily thin the existing trout population. Meanwhile, do some minnow trapping in the local streams or beaver ponds, etc. WalMart sells cylindrical minnow traps that when baited with bread are minnow/shiner magnets. If the traps are shiny spray paint them with drab colors. Accurately identify the minnows (get help here if needed). Once you know who they are; read about how & where they reproduce. Select ones that do not need steams or running water; the lake or pond inhabitant types. Put those in your pond. Keep thinning trout and adding minnows until the trout start getting bigger. Call me when they get 20" long and I will help you make them into the honored guests that they are for dinner. Cutthroat trout are beautiful; you are so lucky. BC

Bullhead Bob,

As Bill Cody said if you have two legged predators around it doesn't matter what you plant. They will in the least reduce your pond's potential, and at worst, fish it out. Unfortunately trout are easy to fish out.

As far as the small cutthroat, are you sure this isn't due to poachers? Maybe the growth rate is better, but the fish don't have a chance getting big due to heavy harvest.

As far as poor results with trout in the past you could also have marginal water quality. Summerkills and winterkills will get the big fish first.

The only way to know for sure if you have optimium water quality for trout is to do some water quality testing during the hottest part of the summer and just before turnover in the fall when oxygen levels get depleted the most in the deepest part of the water column. However that may not be a problem in a 10 ft. deep pond, but then again it can still be.

Unless you can post the property, do some arresting,and keep the poachers out somehow, I don't see it mattering what trout you put in.

Ad far as legality, you will have to check with your state. Every state is different. If your fish to be stocked are a in source instate that aspect of it will be O.K. but chances are your source may have to pass annual disease inspections. Additionally if you have an outlet or inlet their may be restrictions on what species of trout you can plant.

Cutthroat hybridize with rainbows so that could be a problem. However triploids may not be for obvious reasons, but they may have to be certifed to be all triploids.

Hello,

I raise both all female & triploid Rainbows at my farm in Illinois. Unfortunately, I know nearly nothing about Washington state, other than it is a great spot to backpack. However, I'll try to be helpful. One of the easiest ways to develop a forage base is to increase the amount of habitat. This could be done through installing fish cribs, aquatic plants, or even by letting the shorelines go "wild". This gives small fish and invertebrates hiding and reproductive spots. Another thing that you could do to increase the fish size is feed them thoroughly when you are there. Trout have a certain amount of compensatory feeding ability...for instance, if you feed them every day, they will only eat about 1% of their body weight (depending on age & water temp), however, if you starve them for a few days, they will eat far in excess of this amount. Therefore, you can boost the size of the fish with occasional feedings.

I liked the idea of determining the local native forage species and stocking it. If you can't find a fish trap in your neck of the woods, you can check our web site (www.keystonehatcheries.com) where we sell them. If you don't know much about the species of minnow/shiner, it would be wise to bounce the idea off a local fisheries biologist.

As Cecil said, water quality can play a huge role in your success. 7 gpm is a rather small flow for a 2.5 acre trout lake, so it would be good to know oxygen levels and water temp, especially in mid-summer. Your best bet would be to get a local biologist to do this for you, unless you know someone with a D.O. meter...sometimes people that work at the local water treatment plant have the right equipment.

As for the fish, the only real advantage to the triploids is that they do not produce eggs, so the energy goes towards growth. We raise triploids because they produce a better fillet than females that are carrying eggs.

I hope this was helpful.

Mike Robinson
Keystone Hatcheries

See B.Bob, plenty of good advice here about your "trout problem". They are smart about more fish here than just bass, bgill & catfish.
Since your pond is mud bottom, I like Mike's suggestion about weed beds for minnow and small fish refugia. See if eelgrass is native to WA. It's great fish habitat and not real rampant, but it does spread.

Since you only have "puny" trout, are the trout spawning in the pond???
Is it legal to tell the county sheriff that you will donate to the policeman's ball every time they arrest someone fishing in your pond?

Now you've got your work cut out for you. Keep us posted on your progress. BC

Good advice from Mike and Bill.

Also want to say hi to Mike. I have bought excellent pellet trained smallmouth bass and bluegill from his hatchery Keystone Hatcheries. Best quality fish I have every purchased. If I could just put in another pond for smallmouth I would get some more.

If anyone needs fish from Illinois or southern Wisconsin, Keystone Hatchery in Richmond is the place to go. Heck I live in northeastern Indiana and I would go over there in a hearbeat if I need any fish.

Hi Cecil, Thanks for the kind words.

I agree that Eelgrass (Vallisneria americana) is a great habitat plant, but it is native to only the eastern half of the country. I'd think about planting native Bulrush and Arrowhead species around the pond margin...this will help deter poachers as well! Further in, water lilies provide great shade & protection from predators, as long as the water is warm enough for them to grow. In the deep areas, native pondweed species, such as Large-leaf or Clasping-leaf Pondweed (aka cabbage weed) would be beneficial.

I'd take advantage of your local conservation dept., as they usually give good free advice in this area. If you need help finding a plant source, send me an email.

Mike Robinson

One more caution about triploid trout. I would suggest that they not be used in waters that have a "marginal" temperature pattern. Marginal might be that temperatures commonly hit 70 F, or something like that. Too warm is what I mean.

The triploids have more genetic material in their red blood cells, and thus have larger red blood cells. As a result, they have fewer red blood cells than the normal (diploid) trout. When they live in reasonable water temperatures, this causes no problems. However, when water is warm and the fish are somewhat stressed, they can't deliver as much oxygen around the body because of the fewer red blood cells.

Whew. Technical explanation for a practical concern.

Dave Willis

On the topic of trout...

Will they always seek the cooler refuge? I.e. if they are in a pond that might see surface temps of 75-85 degress max but still have areas in the pond of 75 degrees or lower will they seek those areas out and stand a decent chance of survival?

Another question... if you use a well for the purpose of topping up a pond and keeping it cooler, which is best... to have the cold water enter at the bottom of the pond where it will sink anyways or put it in at the top where you could potentially add oxygen through a variety of means?

As for plants around the pond for shade etc. what is a good bet that spreads rapidly and can grow in damp and or dry soil... oh and is readily available? (I will look around for bullrushes...) I have cat-tails but they head straight for the water... and of course the dreaded purple-loosestrife.

Pottsy - I am not an expert on trout pond management, so I hope others will answer your questions more thorougly. I can contribute a little, however.

In both small public impoundments in western ND, and private ponds in western SD, rainbow trout are used for sport fish management programs. In these ponds/small impoundments, the surface water temperatures often get too warm for trout during hot spells in the summer. However, most of these impoundments were built in areas at least somewhat protected from the wind (e.g., bottom of a draw or small canyon). Thus, they typically stratify. I assume you know what I mean -- the water body has warm surface waters, a transition zone that we call the thermocline, and then a layer of colder bottom waters. I often see these waters where the surface can reach or exceed 80 F during the day, but the bottom waters may be in the 50s.

Now, most of the waters are pretty productive, so the bottom waters typically lose their dissolved oxygen due to bacteria that break down organic matter such as decaying plants or algae. Even in these situations with no oxygen in the bottom layer, the trout seem to do fine for at least a couple of weeks. They apparently spend most of the day in the thermocline between the two layers, which is cooler than the upper layer but still has some oxygen. Then, they commonly go up and feed on surface insects at sunrise and sunset.

Hope this helps.

Dave

Pottsy- It would seem that you are gathering information for a new trout pond, or perhaps adding trout to an existing pond. I would think that your location would have perfect water temps for trout. Are you having any luck removing the beavers now that you have good ice cover?
Dan

Pottsy,

I once wrestled around with the same questions you have without much help or information out there. There is beaucoup info on raising trout n raceways, but not much about raising them in earthen ponds for recreation.

I have considered writing a book on building a trout pond, and raising trout as in some of the garden pond books out there.

I have successfully raised brook, brown and rainbow trout now through an exceptionally dry and hot summer (2002)with no shade to speak of.

I don't claim to be an expert, but will tell you what works for me. But realize there is more than one way to skin a cat. My methods are for a pond that is large enough to have fun havesting them by hook and line, get fast growth by feeding them commercial feed twice a day. (See website for pictures) My brooks went from 1 year old 10 inch fish to an average of over 17 inches in 11 months. I hope to have over 20 inch brooks this fall.

If you email me with your address, I have two handouts on raising trout in recreational ponds extensively written by the state of Washington and one by New York state. I don't agree with everything said but it is interesting reading.

Here are the things I have learned from my limited experience with my trout pond:

1.) I wouldn't even consider attempting to hold over trout through the summer in a pond without a good flow of spring water or well water coming into the pond.

2.) A smaller deeper pond vs. a larger shallow pond will heat up less for obvious reasons. My pond is only 88 feet by 59 feet (1/10 acre) and it drops off quickly to 9 feet in the center.

3.) If you run ground water (well or spring) into the pond, drop it through a packed column to aerate it and remove nitrogen gas before it reaches your pond. You can make an excellent home made packed column out of connected 5 gallon buckets and plastic screening in the bottoms with commercial packing material inside.

4.) I harvested about 250 pounds of trout out of my pond last fall with at least 50 pounds left. However you wouldn't be able to get near this much growth without feeding.

5.) If you can do it, optimum pond temps for trout are 50 to 59 F. (10 celcius to 15 celcius)My pond reached surface temps of the mid 60's (up to 18 celcius) on really hot days, but dropped to the low 60's once the sun started going down. This year I will be suspending shade cloth (a black plastic netting) over the edges of the pond out 10 or 12 feet to keep water temps down. I'm doing this for my brook trout that are stressed the most by higher temps.

6.) My well water is 51.6 F. (about 11 celcius) and I run about 38 gpms full bore into the trout pond. (At your lattitude your ground water should be colder) I allow this to overflow into my .62 acre warmwater pond after it leaves the trout pond which it really does not cool down much due to the size. You could run your overflow into another pond that has coolwater fish or allow it to flow into a wetland.

7.) You could run the cold water into the bottom or the top of the pond. It does sink because it weighs more (closer to 4 degrees celcius 39.4 F of which water is the densest). However I run mine to the pond underground downhill through a 4 inch PVC pipe and which is upturned with an elbow at the end. Since the head height where it comes out of the well is higher than the top of the elbow, it flows up and over creating a splash which further aerates the water where it enters the pond.

8.) I mix my water column from top to bottom in the trout pond with a diffuser to break down wastes and add more aeration. I feed my trout on the surface and if I allowed the surface water to warm too much they may not be approacable to feed. They probably would come up breifly, but in my opinion that would stress them and leave them open for disease.

9.) My overflow pipe from the trout pond is at the surface (a horizontal PVC pipe with a gate valve at the end) which drains the warmer surface water, although it is not that much warmer due to mixing. I can adjust the depth of my pond somewhat with the gate valve.

10.0) My well is a 1 1/2 horsepower well that is powered by 220 volts and I estimate it costs me about $100.00 per mouth to run it. However I only run it from May to September and I do sell my fish after harvest so I do recoup the costs.

11.) Make sure your fish you purhase are certified to be disease free to have good quality fish. In my area it is required to have a disease free certificat before we can plant the fish. I purchase trout that averate a half a pound or less for the brooks and an averate of 2 pounds or less for the browns and rainbows. That way I will have trophy fish in only a year.

If you have a pond that is well shaded, and keeps temps and oxygen levels optimum, you could hold over trout without feeding, but your growth rates and survival will not be as good as with feeding. Additionally you will have to have a much lower density if you do not feed.

I hope this helps. Feel free to ask questions.

BTW, the 1/10 acre pond is large enough to allow challenging fishing and it is a blast of a method for harvesting fish. My fish were not as easy to catch as you might think. Especially the browns. Once they are caught and released they get weary and at times the only thing they will hit is a trout pellet!

Cheers to the cold north!

Hey Dan, I think I cleared out the majority of the beavers right before ice-up. The ol' spring loaded snare technique and the .22 seemed to do the trick. My local trapper never did show up, but I am not sure there was anything left for him to get anyways. : )

Cecil, we have talked quite a bit on this topic in the past and I thank you for your information filled post. I have done a ton of reasearch in the past 2 years since before I created my pond on the feasibility of trout etc. and although I am right on the borderline of 'not gonna happen' I still have given it a try. My first foray into stocking trout was early in the summer and unfortunately the hot spell you speak of hit and wiped them out. My second attempt met with about a 50% survival... it would have been higher but I was unable to stop them from swimming into the shallows that were too warm. Even with a lengthy acclimation period the difference in temps from the hatchery, (Which is actually only about 5 miles away), and my pond was just too much. (52 degress vs. 70 in my pond).
I understand that rainbows can tolerate surface temps up to about 78 degree's but it seems that isn't including stress from shipment and a rather sudden temp change.
My final stocking attempt yielded 0 dead fish and I recently trapped out a nice fat 10-11 inch rainbow. (From 3 inch or so stock).

I guess my biggest concern is if we have another year like last year... (the high temps coupled with little rain dropped my pond by two feet), which would almost definitely cause the death of my existing trout. I have partial shade during part of the day but of course during the hottest hours I have zero coverage. I would like to install a well just to feed the pond but if your quotes of 2-4000 USD are an indication of cost it might not be happening. Oh and is the flow of 38 gpm you have fairly typical of what a well can produce?

So basically I am trying to weigh what the chances are that if surface temps hit say 80 degree's but the pond has cooler zones of 75 or less do I stand a decent chance of trout survival if I don't feed them and draw them to the surface?

No offence to the southern pond feller's but although I tried to convince myself that my markee species was going to be SMB or LMB, after a trip to the trout hatchery I just couldn't tear myself away from the idea of having a majority trout pond. (Grew up with a pristine trout stream in my back yard).

P.S. You likely still have my e-mail address, if not it is pottsy@sympatico.ca and I always enjoy reading any documents I can get my hands on.

Thank you.

Pottsy,

Rainbows may be able to survive temps to 78 F. but only for a very short while. It also depends on the the strain, and like you said, other stressors.As you know there is less oxygen at higher temps and that is part of the problem.

In my opinion anything above 70 F. for trout will not only be fatal, but if not fatal right away will cause disease problems from stress and eventual death. However additonal aeration can help but is only a bandaide.

as you probably know stress is what you want to reduce or eliminate when it comes to keeping healthy fish.

As far as 38 gpms being typical for flow, it depends on your particular location and the size of the well pump and casing you have. I could go up to 200 gpms with my 4 inch casing, and I have a farmer several miles down the road that pumps 2000 gpms for irrigation! (It think his casing is 8 or 12 inches)

I don't have to file for a well permit until I use about 100 gpms in my area, so there must be a good aquifer under us. I did some research before putting in my well, as I have neighbors wells around me. My research and my well driller told me the amount I was pumpning even 24/7 was not enough to be concerned about in my area.

I'm sure there is ample information on ground water potential at your location if you know where to look. In my area wells with all the pertanent info like depth to water, types of soil etc. and at what depth, are on line. If you did hire a local well driller he should know all this stuff too.

One advantage you have over me is you ground water is almost certainly lower in temp than mine which is 51.6 F. I wouldn't be surprised if your ground water is 48 F. or even lower. That means you would not have to pump as much and could go with a smaller pump. Additionally it's possible your aquifer is shaller which could reduce the cost too. However there are other variables such as water chemistry (you could have way too much iron) and whether a well driller would have to drill through solid rock.
You could get a few estimates with no obligation.

Cecil

Thanks Cecil,

My area is rather strange, I am 1-2 feet from solid bedrock just about everywhere on my property, had a hell of a time putting in the pond. (But I have my own backhoe and I was damn determined). Whereas the fish farm just up the road just happened to be lucky enough to find a 30 foot deep by 5 acres+ 'bowl' of clay... packed with springs. They actually dug one small hole originally for cattle and it filled in less then an hour and they knew they were on to something. His largest spring flow is on a bit of a hill next to the ponds and he runs it through a 6 inch pipe... so much water comes out it is incredible. Some people have all the luck.

All that said I have the feeling a well won't be very cheap...but hey maybe there is some luck in it for me as well. Heck I've gone this far with the place. I will have to do as you suggest and get some free estimates.. wouldn't hurt to get a feel for what I will be paying.

My observations certainly match what you are saying about the 70 degree cut-off for the trout, my brook trout most certainly are done-in over that temp and the rainbows looked like crap.

Thanks,
Chris

Pottsy,

You could still have a confined aquifer which means your water table is under pressure sandwiched under an impervious layer with the water originating from a higher level somewhere else, and it will come out of the ground if you drill. In my area this is known as a flowing artesian well. There may be maps around that show where you are most likey to get lucky and have a flowing well. It's worth a look. I have an old map that shows this which I ordered from my state.

Again a local well driller would know.

Cecil, BC, Pottsy, David, Mike, and Bill,

Thanks for all the feedback. I've been on vacation (sailing the Virgin Islands....turning
50 has to have some benefits other than joining
the AARP!).

Upon digesting your array of opinions and
feedback, I've decided to poach trout from the
neighbor's pond....

Washington state frowns unfavorably on any
forage minnow fish. I can't even get the F&W
to let me stock them (fathead minnows or mosquito
fish (gambusia)) in the livestock water troughs
as a mosquito/West Nile virus prevention precaution. Go figure.

There is no question the fish in
said lake are self propagating....either that or I have 25 year old 6 inch trout.
The source for Donaldson Trout said (just like
you all mentioned) that I need to severely reduce
the population of the resident trout prior to
stocking the Rainbows/triploids....otherwise the
cutthroats will eradicate all the new planting.
The water remains cool throughout the summer
(surface temp less than 65 deg F), and is clear
with no visible algae or surface aquatic vegetation. The minimum flow rate I gave was
during the driest 4 weeks of an unseasonably
dry summer....typically it is twice this amount
during the 3 summer months and 4 times this amount
other times of the year.

Besides poaching, kingfishers, and an occasional otter; an inadequate food chain is probably partly to blame for the small size fish.

But after I go through the entire drill (water testing, professional consultant, remedial pond
work, and replanting), I'm still left with the unpalatable reality....no control of the two legged predators.

May just stick with my closed culture Yellow
Bullhead study.

I do appreciate everyone's input and will
pass the problem by the Dept of F&W (ie
submit an application for stocking with
the Donaldson/or Triploid) and see where it
goes. Will keep you posted.

Bullhead Bob.