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We always default to bluegill as the backbone of the food chain for raising trophy bass. Therefore, it must be clearly the best option. However, is there a second best option that is close, or is second best miles behind?

In Raising Trophy Bass, Bob Lusk says, "These two factors, size and productivity give them [BG] the staying power to establish the backbone of the food chain for bass." First, it seems to me that yellow perch are just as fecund as bluegill. Secondly, their "size" may be even better for bass.

As regards the first point concerning numbers of offspring - we use removing egg ribbons as a management tool for yellow perch to keep down the number of fry. I have read numerous stories on PB of ponds being stunted with yellow perch. I have not seen the equivalent stories for BG.

Do YP have more fry, in their single spawn, that the BG do in their multiple spawns? If so, are the YP inferior forage stock because fewer fry live long enough to grow to the preferred size for large bass?

If the YP have fewer fry, it still seems that they might serve the LMB better? A single spawn means more fish competing that are almost the same size. This should be a benefit for a forage fish, since then only the jumpers can act as cannibals. I assume that the multiple spawns of BG allow the older BG to consume many of their younger cousins.

As regards the second point concerning forage "size" - it seems to me that the fusiform shape of YP would make them a superior forage species. A LMB can only eat a BG that is 1/4 to 1/3 of its size. (From my PB reading - correct if this is wrong.) Surely it can eat a YP that is over 1/2 of its size. This gets more biomass into the LMB for less effort, which is the desired goal as shown by our numerous Food Chain threads.

I understand that this is a very complicated topic because it depends on the balance of so many variables. I am sure I am failing to grasp several simple truths. However, if someone does make some enlightening comments regarding this matter, then I will try to take these answers and continue the thread by asking more specific, directed questions.

Thanks, Rod

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As you note YP have fewer spawns per year (1 vs. at least four for the bluegill) and the general consensus here is that the yellow perch get decimated by largemouth bass. In fact a good population of large yellow perch as the sole predator can keep yellow perch in check.

As one who hatches yellow perch in a designated small pond, I can tell you that one hatch can be quite prolific, but survival even to 4 or 5 inches is much lower even with no predators. ( I spawn my YP in a cage and remove the broodfish as soon as the eggs hatch).

And some years there isn't a good hatch of yellow perch. The enemy of a good hatch for outside perch is weather, and a cold spring can cripple phyto and zooplankton hatches, which can starve to death newly hatched fry. Bluegill spawn later and multiple times so it's not as much of an issue.

I've also found out the hard way that even a hand full of female escapee bluegills from a floating cage, in an all male bluegill pond can produce a multitude of bluegills in no time. So bluegills are quite prolific!

Last edited by Cecil Baird1; 11/28/15 09:20 AM.

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Cecil - Thanks for the information.

Due to our location (Kansas) smack-dab in the middle of the country, we get even higher variability in our early spring weather than most other locales. I suspect our results would therefore be even worse than average.

Why do you have to remove the YP broodfish from your cages? Is there more than one mating pair per cage? Do YP guard their egg ribbons or just "fire and forget"?

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If yellow perch can't be the backbone of the food chain, could they still be a valuable supplement in a LMB-BG fishery in southern Kansas?

My pond will literally be sculpted from clay. Dimensions and depths can easily be selected during the design phase. (Aiming for 1.5 to 2 acres.) I would like to have YP as a bonus fish. (Eat some if they ever need to be culled or if one gets gullet-hooked.)

Is there any chance of getting recruitment around the LMB and BG? I assume the BG will hammer the fry, and the LMB will hammer the fingerlings before they reach sexual maturity. I can build humps in the middle of the pond and try to raise "designer" submerged weed assemblages. I also have lots of Osage Orange trees to clear. I could easily construct long-lasting cribs. Is there any combination of weeds and/or crib fill that would support YP and inhibit hunting BG and LMB?

Last edited by FishinRod; 11/28/15 03:44 PM.
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I have shiners in my LMB, BG, crappie pond. I've caught a couple on flies. Shiners and shad are something you could try. From what I've read, one species of shad would not survive the winter where you are, but the other forage fish probably would. Their problem would be surviving the LMB. Again, from what I've read, shiners will give LMB more competition for food than will BG, so in that respect they are less desirable than BG. I've never heard of these forage fish becoming problems in ponds, but there's lots I've never heard of.

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I've done some field research and data accumulation on this topic of YP in various relatively weed free smaller ponds (<1.0ac) with various predators of LMB, SMB, HSB, and WE (walleye). Note: these tested ponds did not have BG in them as a panfish just YP were present. Relatively weed free means ponds that are actively managed and submerged weeds and FA are kept to less than 10%-15% of the surface area. Overall CPUE (catch per unit effort) of YP was always least to sometimes nonexistent in ponds with LMB and highest CPUE in ponds with just a few WE/ac. YP numbers even struggle to produce very many harvestable YP in a pond with a 'strong' SMB population. Maximum CPUE of large harvestable perch was in ponds with only YP and a forage fish/pellet feeding combination. Forage fish being some sort of minnow-shiner population.

YP are fusiform and LMB in most all cases that I studied LMB over reproduced, over recruited, and over ate the YP as forage species. YP will often be selected over the disk shaped BG/sunfish. YP fry may be more vulnerable to early predation and recruitment problems compared to BG which was eluded to by CecilB1. YP seem to struggle to maintain numbers in the LMB-BG based pond. Weed cover is a big advantage to YP survival in the LMB_BG pond. The other thing that favors YP in the LMB-BG pond is to manage for few larger bass (>14") who as 16"+ bass readily crop the larger harvestable YP (8"+).

YP can be a bonus fish in the LMB-BG pond and natural recruitment of the YP will IMO be directly related to the amount of submerged weeds available for cover/habitat for the perch. Keep in mind that with abundant weed cover BG will also have higher survival rates which may lead to a trend of overpopulation of BG and on average smaller BG.

I would never consider YP as a backbone to a LMB fishery. However YP IMO could be considered the backbone to a SMB, HSB, or walleye based fishery.

Last edited by Bill Cody; 11/28/15 03:18 PM.

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Turtle - Thanks for the additional recommendations. I am still working my way "down" the forage chain.

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Fishinrod,

I have just begun my yp as bonus forage in my 4 acre lm/bg/res pond. A couple weeks ago Rex, Rainman on PB, delivered around 100 breeding size YP. I have submerged plants of various kinds as well as brush piles and log jams. I am hoping for enough recruitment to maintain additional forage for the lm as well as the occasional perch sammich. If I still have yp in the pond in 3 to 4 years, I will consider this a success. I do not expect ot intend for the yp to replace the bg. My pond is established with lm up to 4lb (at least that's the biggest caught so far) and bg of various sizes up to 10".

I have gotten lots of support and input from Bill C and others here. I would be interested to see you try this and compare notes with you. Or you can watch me flounder around and learn what not to do.

In any event, I am excited about this and am looking forward to seeing my first perch ribbons this spring.

Btw, I am in west central MO. Similar weather I expect.

Cmm


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Bill - Thanks for all of the "hard" data. That was about what I expected on YP survival rates. I like the clarity provided by your CPUE term - that is a great addition to our pond vocabulary.

The reason I posed the YP question was because I am considering a small, deep pond above the LMB-BG pond. (Probably in the .5-.8 acre range.) I think a YP fishery with maximum obtainable removal of eating size YP as the primary goal would probably please the most family members.

Your research indicates that goal is best achieved with yellow perch as the only predator. I believe several members (including JamesBryan and DonoBBD) are currently attempting to manage with that plan.

This leads me to several more questions right in your wheelhouse. With YP as the only predator, then I assume overpopulation and stunting is a potential management problem. Could this be addressed with a small number of single sex BG? (Potential problem - kids catch the BG I want to stay in the pond more readily than our target YP.) The BG could suck up a lot of fry in the years where weather facilitates a large hatch of YP. Yet with their small mouths, they could not eat any of the YP that grow to a larger size.

Likewise, considering RES as an addition (instead of non-producing BG). Would the RES compete with my YP, or would they provide a valuable service in keeping my "dinner plate" stock free from parasites?

As I contemplate forage, I would have some concerns about adding Golden Shiners into a pond with YP as the top predator. I assume large Golden Shiners would eat YP fry and help with potential overpopulation problems. Howver, I worry that if some GSH reached 9 inches, then none of the YP could eat the largest forage.

I do think Threadfin Shad would be good for the largest YP. At my temperatures, I think I would have 100% TFS mortality every winter. Would the TFS get enough growing days after spring warm-up to provide good forage?

Finally, if we do manage for a YP-forage-pellet pond, then do I want to manage the pond to be relatively weed-free to increase the CPUE? This relates to the question of adding crayfish as supplemental forage. (Do YP forage on crayfish since they predate a different niche than SMB?) If YP do forage on crayfish, then papershells might be a valuable addition to the pond, since they would help keep the vegetation down to the preferred 10-15% coverage.

Thanks for everyone's valuable insights.

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CMM - That is exactly the experiment that sounds very desirable to me.

I hope your YP can fulfill their dual role - supplement the diet of your LMB and also supplement your diet laugh

Please keep us posted on your results. When I get up to the point of actual stocking, I may PM you, and you can make some suggestions for any variables we may want to alter in the second "experiment".

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Originally Posted By: FishinRod
Cecil - Thanks for the information.

Due to our location (Kansas) smack-dab in the middle of the country, we get even higher variability in our early spring weather than most other locales. I suspect our results would therefore be even worse than average. The females are put back in their original female only pond, and the males are either filleted or put into a holding pond for future use as brood fish.

Why do you have to remove the YP broodfish from your cages? Is there more than one mating pair per cage? Do YP guard their egg ribbons or just "fire and forget"?



The broodfish are allowed to breed in the cage with the purpose of making it easy to remove them vs. having them swimming free in the pond where they can prey on the young perch and be difficult to remove.

I put about five females to 15 males in the cage. I end up with several hundred feed trained plump perch.

Btw as said several people here that have good knowledge to share about yellow perch, but Bill Cody isn't called Dr. Perca for nothing. He's taught me everything I know about producing big yellow perch including one that came out of my pond that was 5 ounces bigger than our state record.

Another man that was indispensable for me is Bill Lynch of Marysville, Ohio that is a retired Ohio State extension agent, president of the Ohio Aquaculture Association, and a yellow perch producer.

My "unofficial" state record yellow perch. 2 lbs. 13 oz. and 16 1/4 inches.



A couple of big ones caught in the pond a couple springs ago.






Btw feed trained and pellet fed perch is the way to go if you want large fast growing yellow perch.





Last edited by Cecil Baird1; 11/28/15 06:22 PM.

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Cecil - I have seen that picture of your giant YP on several previous occasions. It is certainly one of the things that made me contemplate YP down in Kansas. Doing half that well would still be a smashing success.

YP are described in the literature as "fusiform" - your fish need a new shape descriptor. I have certainly never cleaned a YP remotely that shape. Are those fish mostly flesh, or does a significant proportion of their weight consist of egg mass and stomach contents?

I did some more research and see that YP adults abandon the eggs after spawning. I now assume that you remove the brood fish immediately after the spawn. If your egg strands have a minimum of 30,000 eggs, then your five strands should yield at least 150,000 fry. Do you feed train them in the cage, or do they disperse through the mesh into your pond? Is the pond a "blank slate" at the start of each season? What is the cause of the mortality from 150,000 down to your final several hundred - cannibalism, predation, or just failure to thrive?

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Big bellies are eggs (up to 30 percent of body weight) although the females also grow faster and reach a larger size.

Below is a female and male of the same age.



Fry disperse through the mesh.

Yes pond is a blank slate at the beginning of each season.

Fry are feed trained by using a light and belt feeder at the end of a pier and fry powder. Up to a certain length the yellow perch are attracted to light. I'm sure the zooplankton concentrated under the light doesn't hurt either.

Survival is probably negatively effected by cannibalism by larger cohorts, predatory insects, lack of sufficient pytoplankton blooms and therefore lack of zooplankton (tricky to get a good bloom going early in the year), and rapid temp changes.

Last edited by Cecil Baird1; 11/29/15 09:05 AM.

If pigs could fly bacon would be harder to come by and there would be a lot of damaged trees.






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Great picture Cecil! Really shows the size difference between sexes well. Seems to illustrate to me that when first stocking YP, especially in the fall, folks might want to consider stocking 2 or 3 size classes to insure a good mix of male and female. I know one member posted he stocked all large YP, 7 to 9, and ended up with all females. I stocked medium YP, 5 to 7, and ended up with pretty much all males. FWIW if I had the chance at a "do over", I would hedge my bet and initially stock 3 to 5, 5 to 7 and 7 to 9 all from the same fish farm.


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Originally Posted By: Bill D.
Great picture Cecil! Really shows the size difference between sexes well. Seems to illustrate to me that when first stocking YP, especially in the fall, folks might want to consider stocking 2 or 3 size classes to insure a good mix of male and female. I know one member posted he stocked all large YP, 7 to 9, and ended up with all females. I stocked medium YP, 5 to 7, and ended up with pretty much all males. FWIW if I had the chance at a "do over", I would hedge my bet and initially stock 3 to 5, 5 to 7 and 7 to 9 all from the same fish farm.


I agree. Great pic. When I first started catching my perch, I thought the differences in sizes was from the different sizes in the original stocking. Turns out it was just the males and females..

Rex dumping them in April 27


Larger female caught Sept 27


Last edited by SetterGuy; 11/29/15 03:22 PM.

9 yr old pond, 1 ac, 15' deep.
RES, YP, GS, FHM (no longer), HBG (going away), SMB, and HSB (only one seen in 5 yrs) Restocked HSB (2020) Have seen one of these.
I think that's about all I should put in my little pond.
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Wow SG! Excellent growth in 5 months. They look really small in that first photo. How big were they when you stocked them? Did you pellet feed?

Last edited by Bill D.; 11/29/15 04:37 PM. Reason: Clarification

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Cecil - Thanks for your lengthy reply, it was very informative.

First, a picture truly is worth a thousand words. Your male and female YP picture will surely help us new guys avoid some erroneous conclusions in the future.

Second, thanks for all of the personal observations in your post that are derived from your years of management. I learn a great deal from these types of posts.

Finally, there is a Matt Damon line from The Martian, that I think applies to most of us here on Pond Boss - we are going to "science the sh*t out of this". I definitely get the best education when posters give the scientific reasons that they think support their observations. Sometimes others may disagree with their conclusions, but when you are running a long term, multi-variant experiment, then a robust debate can be enlightening in itself.

Thanks to all on this forum, and all of the information they provide.

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Originally Posted By: Bill D.
Wow SG! Excellent growth in 5 months. They look really small in that first photo. How big were they when you stocked them? Did you pellet feed?


They were mostly 2 - 4". Some 4 - 7", but to be honest, I thought they were all pretty much in the 2" range. Rex had to school me in fingerling measurements.

I did have a feeder going from April on. However, I did not buy a Texas Feeder, so I had several weeks while I was waiting for parts for my "other" brand.


9 yr old pond, 1 ac, 15' deep.
RES, YP, GS, FHM (no longer), HBG (going away), SMB, and HSB (only one seen in 5 yrs) Restocked HSB (2020) Have seen one of these.
I think that's about all I should put in my little pond.
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Just curious...Was the "other" brand that caused you a problem the one that was advertised as being totally redesigned and improved?


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Originally Posted By: Bill D.
Just curious...Was the "other" brand that caused you a problem the one that was advertised as being totally redesigned and improved?


You got it. The problem turned out to be in the wiring harness. They sent me a battery, and timer, before the wiring harness. Works fine now. Seals up tight, but I've heard it does not throw the food as far as TH.


9 yr old pond, 1 ac, 15' deep.
RES, YP, GS, FHM (no longer), HBG (going away), SMB, and HSB (only one seen in 5 yrs) Restocked HSB (2020) Have seen one of these.
I think that's about all I should put in my little pond.
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For some female YP at 6"-7" in April and then fed pellets it is 'normal' growth for them to be 9" by the end of the year. I suspect that the YP fingerlings at 2"-4" with optimum growth many of them will be 4"-7" by fall.


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Nope, I would not recommend my current feeder.


9 yr old pond, 1 ac, 15' deep.
RES, YP, GS, FHM (no longer), HBG (going away), SMB, and HSB (only one seen in 5 yrs) Restocked HSB (2020) Have seen one of these.
I think that's about all I should put in my little pond.
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Originally Posted By: SetterGuy
Nope, I would not recommend my current feeder.


Maybe not but I LOVE THAT SETTING with those mature trees. If you don't mind, I'll be down in a few days with a picnic lunch just to soak up the view. smile Great job man!

Last edited by Bill D.; 11/29/15 08:11 PM. Reason: Clarification

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Thank you very much. It's very peaceful. Just a year old, it's still got a long way to go.


9 yr old pond, 1 ac, 15' deep.
RES, YP, GS, FHM (no longer), HBG (going away), SMB, and HSB (only one seen in 5 yrs) Restocked HSB (2020) Have seen one of these.
I think that's about all I should put in my little pond.
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Originally Posted By: SetterGuy
Originally Posted By: Bill D.
Great picture Cecil! Really shows the size difference between sexes well. Seems to illustrate to me that when first stocking YP, especially in the fall, folks might want to consider stocking 2 or 3 size classes to insure a good mix of male and female. I know one member posted he stocked all large YP, 7 to 9, and ended up with all females. I stocked medium YP, 5 to 7, and ended up with pretty much all males. FWIW if I had the chance at a "do over", I would hedge my bet and initially stock 3 to 5, 5 to 7 and 7 to 9 all from the same fish farm.


I agree. Great pic. When I first started catching my perch, I thought the differences in sizes was from the different sizes in the original stocking. Turns out it was just the males and females..

Rex dumping them in April 27


Larger female caught Sept 27




The question that comes to mind is how big will the males get? Say you set the minimum size for YP you harvest from your pond at 9 inches. Will you ever/rarely be harvesting any males?

Last edited by Bill D.; 12/02/15 04:55 PM. Reason: Clarification

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