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#428288 11/02/15 10:37 PM
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I'm looking at building a pond on my fathers 413 acres in central Missouri. I talked to a pond builder today. One thing he told me is we don't have to make a clay liner in the dry creek basin. The creek basin is down to bedrock I think. How many bad experiences has started like this? There is a 1.2 acre pond 1/16mile away that never had leaky problems with bedrock.


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Not sure how you dump clay on rock, mash it down, and not have it leak under the dirt.


It's not about the fish. It's about the pond. Take care of the pond and the fish will be fine. PB subscriber since before it was in color.

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When the pond is being dug out, if you run into good clay, I would plate over the rock with clay and tie it into the clay in the rest of the pond basin.

If there's any cracks in the rocks and they aren't sealed, water will leak out. If there's more water coming into the pond than is leaking out, you'll never notice the cracks. But if not................


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Welcome to the forum! The fact that the creek bed is DRY, makes me think your pond builder is wrong. I would definitely put down a well compacted clay liner over all the exposed rock. Ask your "pond builder how he intends to compact the soils also...if they say the track equipment is heavy and compacts it, they are wrong! Tracks are wide, they float with minimal compaction. Require a sheepsfoot roller be used, or a wheeled earthmover.

Osage County is the northern edge of the Ozarks where lots of limestone and sandstone grows better than most plants. It takes some pond building skill and/or someone with knowledge supervising a good dirt mover to build a pond properly in your area. Many dirt pushers get lucky building some small ponds, but will never tell you about the dozens there that never held water.



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I agree 110% with Rainman. Tracks are on the heavy equipment so it doesn't sink into soft soils, exactly the opposite you want when compacting clay.


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Thanks for the responses. I know this guy from high school but I don't know his work other than he has built some ponds. I know he is trying to make this the most cost effective but he might be try to skimp to much. There is clay outside of the creek so I'll have my builder who ever it is tie the clay together.

And yes he said he would compact it with a small dozer no sheepsfoot . So that had me scared. Also he said he would use 6" schedule 30 sewer pipe with no anti seeping collars. I'm thinking schedule 30 sounds cheap. And no anti seap collars sounds dangerous.

After I have the land surveyed I plan on having another builder look at it.

Luckily I have no kids and don't have to pay for the land. If it cost more to do it by the book I'll pay for it.


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I wish my iPhone could load my pictures


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If you have hit solid bedrock you must have 3 feet of compacted clay to seal properly.

At this point, I'm going to throw a monkey wrench in your sheepsfoot compactor vs. a dozer. Before you assume that I'm an idiot and this is my 2nd post I have posted in, I want you to actually think about what I put forward. I was taught earthworks by Geoff Lawton who has constructed ponds all over the world by track rolling only.

According to the University of Missouri

http://extension.missouri.edu/webster/pond-seal.aspx

a D-8 has 10-13 pounds per square inch compaction compared to a sheepsfoot roller at 300 psi and a womans high heels at 860 psi +


However not only are these measurement not accurate. There are many variables to consider.

Obviously for the high heels to have such a high psi they are only considering the point of the heel, as they are the points of the sheeps foot roller.

I have a case 1155E track loader at my house so I took some measurements. It's hard to lie with math. The points of the tracks are .5 inches wide and 15.5 inches long. So each track has 7.75 square inches. There are 15 tracks in contact with the ground at a time on each side. The machine weighs 27,362 pounds. Divide that by two and you have, 13,681. 7.75 square inches x 15 equals 116.25. 13,681 lbs divided by 116.25 equals 117.68 pounds per square inch. Much higher then originally suggested per a college study.

I'm a senior master tech that works for Ford motor company. I have every certification you can receive from Ford. I specialize in automatic transmissions, I'm 29 years old. The average age for an automatic transmission specialist is 52.

When people ask me about what direction to face your solar panels, the answer I give is....well it depends.

When people ask me what angle to put your solar panels, the answer is I give is....well it depends.

When people ask me when to change their transmission fluid, the answer I give is....well it depends.

Whether a sheepsfoot compactor is better then track rolling? Well the answer is it depends.

Since i'm an automotive technician, its easy for me to make references to vehicles.

Say we have a 2007 F-350. Have you ever tried to push one in neutral by yourself? Its incredibly difficult by yourself, almost impossible. It weighs around 6,000 lbs. In the diesel model it produces 570 lbs of torque at 2000 rpms. Torque multiplication occurs at lower rpms at 2:1 through the torque converter. The gear ratio for first gear is 3.11 to 1. and the rear end ratio can vary but is common to be 3.73. so 570*2*3.11*3.73= 13,224 foot lbs of torque just to take off. Split that to two wheels and each wheel can receive a max amount of torque of 6,612 lbs just to take off.

If you just measure the vehicles weight, divide it by 4 and calculate the square inches of tire surface you would get a number far inferior to what the vehicle is actually capable of putting to the pavement in terms of force.

The same thing applies to heavy equipment. Can you imagine how much force it takes to move a 27,000 lb piece of equipment, a 40,000 lb piece of equipment? A 60,000 lb piece of equipment? As a machine track rolls and compacts, its not just as simple as the calculation of weight, but the amount of force the tracks put on the ground and compact the soil below it, as it starts and stops, goes forward and backward. As the machine operator drags one brake the force is applied to the front of the inside track and the back of the inside track.

I would suspect in most cases track rolling is far superior to sheepsfoot compaction if the operator knows what he is doing.

But the answer is of course it all depends. If your dragging around a sheepsfoot compacter behind a tractor, of course the track machine is going to compact better. The only exception being an actual dedicated vibratory compaction machine

There have been 100's of thousands of ponds installed that were compacted by track rolling, and it works.

Last edited by Eric H; 11/03/15 09:07 PM.
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Eric, your train of thought would be correct IF the tracked vehicle operator was able to compact the soil enough to only have the tips/points (actually called grouser bars) of the track on the soil, but that won't happen. So, then what? What is the PSI on the soil then? Or can the operator compact the soil enough for that to happen?

With a sheepsfoot roller, the proper way to use it is to have the roller compact the soil enough so that it "walks out" and the barrel of the roller is no longer in contact with the soil. So to accomplish the same thing with the dozer, the operator would have to compact the soil enough so that the grouser bars are only in contact with the soil, and not the track itself.

Also, the sheepsfoot roller "knits" the layers of soil together as they are placed and compacted, to prevent the water from leaching out between the layers, like between the sheets of paper in a ream of copy paper. That's why you don't want to lay down 18" of soil and try to compact it. The soil should be compacted in 6"-8" lifts. How tall are the grouser bars on the dozer vs. how far the "feet" of the sheepsfoot roller extend from the barrel?

You are correct, there are 1,000's of ponds that don't leak (much) that were constructed with tracked equipment only. There are also 1,000's of ponds that DO leak when constructed with tracked equipment. With the cost of building a pond, and the cost of re-building a leaky pond, I would rather pay once and cry once and have it done with equipment that gives me the highest % of success possible the first time around.


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Originally Posted By: Fastmarvelousmax
I wish my iPhone could load my pictures


It can. Sort of. The pictures need to be stored on an on-line site, like photobucket. Then the "direct link" from photobucket is used to display the photo here. There should be a tutorial in the archives on how to do it.


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It's not just about weight and compaction. A sheepsfoot "kneads" the soil while traveling over it, allowing for a greater degree of compaction.


"Forget pounds and ounces, I'm figuring displacement!"

If we accept that: MBG(+)FGSF(=)HBG(F1)
And we surmise that: BG(>)HBG(F1) while GSF(<)HBG(F1)
Would it hold true that: HBG(F1)(+)AM500(x)q.d.(=)1.5lbGRWT?
PB answer: It depends.
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Well I'll get bids and go from there.


This is not a photo of a pond but it's a test. Can anyone see it?
https://www.dropbox.com/s/rktj3mmg1ragw79/Photo%20Jun%2008%2C%2011%2013%2004%20AM.jpg?dl=0


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Yes. LMB cradled on left forearm.


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Eric, as was said, you are correct on the grouser bars themselves having a good psi for compaction, yet the thin profile and wide spacing along with a short height, it would take probably 30 times the passes and in about 1-3" lifts to achieve equal compaction of one pass of a sheepsfoot and in 6" lifts. Compaction CAN be done with a track, but with excessive time and cost by comparison. That is probably why, for compaction purposes, grousers are not considered in tracked equipment, plus, they are designed for traction with minimal compaction. Wear down the grousers and you are on a slip-n-slide in moist clay. MU is correct in the 10-13 psi average, so is the psi for a spiked high heel (about 1/4" square inch heel surface on a 150# woman is 600 psi). That 2007 F250 will compact better with roughly 80 square inches at 75psi per.

If you look at the actual physics between a sheepsfoot and track, a track can never compact as well as a sheepsfoot. Vibratory sheepsfoot rollers are even better. By design, tracks provide minimal compaction.

Max, you should check the library on the home page here and consider buying Mike Otto's book, "Just Add Water". It will answer all your building questions!

Last edited by Rainman; 11/05/15 01:38 AM.


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I went through this in NE Missouri. My impression is that most of these guys have built small ponds on pasture or tillable acres. Those are the ponds that the govt will fund.
I believe that it's a lot easier to put in a pond where you are working with topsoil and the underlying clay. Once one of these guys gets out of the field, and into a creek bed with rocks, and timber, they are at a bit of a loss.
My pond has a small leak, I'm ok with it, but I had to be out there the entire time to try and get them to do it right.
If I were to do it all over again, I'd bring in a serious pond builder from out of town. Someone that's dealt with rock and all types of soils.
Of course, I probably would have been told not to build my pond, but it was the only place on our farm that I was willing to put a pond. Ha..
Be careful is all I can recommend. Find someone that really has the experience, and will guarantee in writing that the pond will hold water.. (If there is such a person.)

Last edited by SetterGuy; 11/05/15 08:11 AM.

8 yr old pond, 1 ac, 15' deep.
RES, YP, GS, FHM (no longer), HBG (going away), SMB, and HSB (didn’t make it. 0 seen in 5 yrs) Restocked HSB (2020) I think we have survivors!
I think that's about all I should put in my little pond.
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It does seem like having trees makes the bids more uncertain. But it seems like the trees fall over on there own when they to big. I'm guessing because of the rocks they'll come out pretty easy besause the roots are shallow.

I'm getting a land survey done next week to find out where the farm line ends. Then I'll get a couple of more bids and ideas on how each contractor would build it.


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Originally Posted By: Rainman
..... so is the psi for a spiked high heel (about 1/4" square inch heel surface on a 150# woman is 600 psi). ......


Just so nobody runs out and hires a few hundred women in high heels to compact their ponds grin I suspect a significant amount of a woman's weight when wearing high heels is carried on the ball of her foot, not the heel. I expect the 600 psi number for a 150 pound woman is wrong. By how much, I don't know.

I am willing to research this further and get a better number by hiring several beautiful young models for a study should anyone want to fund the project! grin


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Originally Posted By: Bill D.
Originally Posted By: Rainman
..... so is the psi for a spiked high heel (about 1/4" square inch heel surface on a 150# woman is 600 psi). ......


Just so nobody runs out and hires a few hundred women in high heels to compact their ponds grin I suspect a significant amount of a woman's weight when wearing high heels is carried on the ball of her foot, not the heel. I expect the 600 psi number for a 150 pound woman is wrong. By how much, I don't know.

I am willing to research this further and get a better number by hiring several beautiful young models for a study should anyone want to fund the project! grin


Would kickstart help? laugh


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Wouldn't a 150 pound woman on a 1/4 heel and only on the heel be 150 x 16 = 2400 not 150 x 4? as there are 16 - 1/4" squares in one square inch? Assuming she was standing on one foot. Was just curious on the math/conversion ratio on that is all. Also there are other variables such as stride length, which will determine your point of impact and it's size.

Bill I volunteer to help on the research...but you sir are wearing the heels for the first round.


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Esshup,

All funding will be strongly considered as an option! laugh

DC,

See! So many variables to explore!

Had to give up wearing high heels a couple of years back do to the diabetes but, IMO I really was cute in them....Looks like the young guy will have to carry the ball. What size high heels do you typically wear? grin


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Remember also that this is Pondboss, and we strive to over complicate, over think, and over do. So while I don't care who the models are, I expect their dainty feet to be clad in Louis Vuitton, only.


"Forget pounds and ounces, I'm figuring displacement!"

If we accept that: MBG(+)FGSF(=)HBG(F1)
And we surmise that: BG(>)HBG(F1) while GSF(<)HBG(F1)
Would it hold true that: HBG(F1)(+)AM500(x)q.d.(=)1.5lbGRWT?
PB answer: It depends.
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Another variable! Sparkie, you are absolutely brilliant. In true PB fashion we need to over think this and expand the project to include many more young models. The possibilities are endless! smile Color of the heels, elevation of the heels, i.e., 1 inch heels, 2 inch heels, 3 inch heels.....etc. The project is already beyond my capability to support. Time to bring in Bob O. as the lead?


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Originally Posted By: Fastmarvelousmax
It does seem like having trees makes the bids more uncertain. But it seems like the trees fall over on there own when they to big. I'm guessing because of the rocks they'll come out pretty easy besause the roots are shallow.

I'm getting a land survey done next week to find out where the farm line ends. Then I'll get a couple of more bids and ideas on how each contractor would build it.


I had a lot of old trees where my pond is now. I split the timber sales with the guys that helped me clear it. We got $12,000 for the timber. He kept half, and I turned around and gave him the other half for the dozer work, pulling the sheeps foot roller, and the track hoe. If you have a lot of older trees including white oak and or walnut. I'd get a professional forester to come in and look at it. They will do the survey and set up bids for the timber, and take a percentage. We only had a few really good white oaks, and no walnuts, so I didn't worry about it. Timber prices were up at the time, I would suspect they still are.
The stumps were hard to get out of the ground. We had a lot of hickory which went deep. They had to dig them out. Way to many to put in the pond basin, so we buried them. (Extra cost on dozer time..) but the wife wanted it to look cleaner.


8 yr old pond, 1 ac, 15' deep.
RES, YP, GS, FHM (no longer), HBG (going away), SMB, and HSB (didn’t make it. 0 seen in 5 yrs) Restocked HSB (2020) I think we have survivors!
I think that's about all I should put in my little pond.
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Is there a difference in PSI for one legged women vs 2 legged?


It's not about the fish. It's about the pond. Take care of the pond and the fish will be fine. PB subscriber since before it was in color.

Without a sense of urgency, Nothing ever gets done.

Boy, if I say "sic em", you'd better look for something to bite. Sam Shelley Rancher and Farmer Muleshoe Texas 1892-1985 RIP
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Originally Posted By: Dave Davidson1
Is there a difference in PSI for one legged women vs 2 legged?


That might depend on the size of the crutch tip.....


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