Pond Boss Forums AQUATIC VEGETATION Controlling unwanted plants Help with Coontail?

I continue to have problems with what I think is a major coontail invasion. The problem started 2 yrs ago and the past 2 summers my 3-4 acre pond has been covered with this weed (approx 50-75% coverage). I introduced some triploid grass carp two years ago per specs. recommended and they are now huge but have done little to mitigate the aquatic vegetation. I prefer not to use chemicals but may not have any other options. Can any of you help me confirm the identity of the vegetation from the attached pics and offer any solutions other than grass carp. Thanks in advance for your help.

pond veg1

http://i1383.photobucket.com/albums/ah311/GMD0911/Pond%20veg2_zpscnyc4tlo.jpg

http://i1383.photobucket.com/albums/ah311/GMD0911/Pond%20veg3_zpsis1jrfrr.jpg

Chara maybe

If you don't want to use chemicals have you thought about pond dye? Add dyes this fall and then refresh the dye in February.

Don't want to use chemicals, but will if works without killing the fish. Any recommendations on what and how to use. Assume fall/winter not the best time of the year? early spring the best?

When you say you added triploid grass carp per specs, how many did you add?

12 per acre, 36 total. I can see at least a dozen per visit with fish appearing to be in the 10-15 lb. range. Maybe they are getting too fat and lazy? I have been accused of same.

Up the amount of GC by about 4 per surface acre. See what happens then. Do you know for sure what size pond you have? i.e. measure it?

Google acme planimeter and see if it's on there.

This one is very interesting to me. Been scratching my head on it today. I see it as how many GC are required to "mow the lawn" and then "keep the lawn mowed" as two different numbers of GC. Does it make sense to help the GC out with either herbicide or mechanical removal of the bulk of the problem and then just stock to "keep the lawn mowed?"

That's what I did, Bill.

When I moved here in March, 2012 the CT was so bad you couldn't row a boat in the pond. Treated with Fluridone in June 2012, followed with stocking 8, 12" GC in the fall. Follow up treatment again with Fluridone in Spring 2013 and to date my pond is clean.

The GC are huge yet rarely seen. I'd remove them if I could catch them and restock at 12" if needed.

I believe the way it's worked for me is that the GC have kept the lawn mowed .

would loading it down with tilapia in the spring help eat some of it?

CP,
Is stocking crawfish an option for you? Many have reported a healthy crawfish population wiping out a lot of vegetation.

Has it been confirmed that your vegetation is in fact coontail? I read back thru the thread and didn't see that question answered definitively.

Good question, Bill!

IN CP's pics I don't see the whorls commonly found on Coontail. To me it appears to be Chara, which I understand to be an algae.

IIRC, one way to check to see if it's Chara is to pinch it and see if it puts off a foul smell.

No doubt, it is indeed coontail.

Thanks for the confirmation Kelly. You are definitely a pro on vegetation so, what is your recommendation to get it under control and then sustain?

Thanks very much for the responses to this thread. I can confirm based on both Pond Boss expertise and TPW Dept. opinions that vegetation is Pond Weed. Given my perspective of the feedback so far I would like to develop a plan going forward for a "mow the lawn" / "kill the weeds" approach. Add some young bloods to my grass carp herd and supplement with some selective herbicide application in the spring. I would appreciate any commentary on the following plans.

> Spring 2016 - add additional 20 grass carp to the pond (I have a TPW permit for 25 fish). My pond is 3-4 acres with a depth of 12 - 15 ft. on the dam side of the pond. I would estimate that I currently have 6-10 lg. fat carp cruising the pond.

> Spring 2016 - Apply aquatic herbicide (either Flouridone (Sonar) or Endothal (Aqualhol - copper compound mix needed?)). My assumption is that vegetation should be actively growing before application and amount/application method should follow label directions.

I have raked the pond before and do not wish to pursue this option going forward as it is very labor and time sensitive and concerned that I may be simply spreading the problem.

I really appreciate the PB community input and counsel on this issue and am happy to serve as a "case study" for those afflicted with similar challenges. I will document a plan based another round of feedback and update on implementation and results in 2016. Thanks again and look forward to anymore questions.

Overall the rains of 2015 have been wonderful for my Parker county pond as it is full, family and friends are enjoying catching lots of LMB and BG, and habitat is thriving (including coontail). Need to improve the size of my LMB's but that's another subject for a different thread.

-- Coolpond

Go here and measure your pond to know it's size for sure.

http://acme.com/planimeter/

Depending on the amount of weeds you want to regrow in the pond after the herbicide treatment, you might need more or less Triploid Grass Carp. For complete control, 12-15 per acre would do it if you have a lot of plants. So, you can see how the difference between 3 and 4 acres is critical.

It's also critical for applying herbicide. You also have to get a good idea of the depth profile of the pond to correctly figure out how many gallons of water are in your pond, especially with Fluridone. If you think you have 4 acres and only have 3, and apply as if you have 4, it will cost a LOT more. You can't spot treat with it, the whole lake has to be treated, and you should keep the concentration at 90 parts per billion for a minimum of 45 days.

You could also use Diquat with a copper kicker and a surfactant.

Thanks again

This definitely does not look like pondweed of any kind. To me it looks very much like Chara. Cara is an algae and is best treated with Chelated copper like that in cutrine granular. If you use a liquid cutrine it can work as well but does not get as much contact time. Cutrine is very safe and will not kill your fish. You can always get a fish kill if you kill to many weeds at one time however this is easily prevented by treating one part of your pond at a time.

Coontail - looks similar to chara. Follow Esshup's advice on treatment - PM him, he can provide treatment at low cost and walk you through application.

Bill, this is what I'm doing as well. I had a very severe coontail problem, but only stocked GC at half the recommended rate. They will muddy the water, so I didn't want to deal with too many for the next 4-5 years. Aggressive herbicide applications this year, and hopefully the GC will be able to handle most of the coontail next year.

Measured pond with the planimeter tool. Currently 3.415 surface acres. Would estimate 90% full and can change dramatically between drought and wet cycles (worst case - 60% full in drought conditions). Average depth 6-8 ft.. Recognize the need to ensure herbicide application is "scaled" properly for best results.

I struggle with the Coontail vs. Chara identification. I have included a couple of new links to higher quality pics that may be more useful.

Thanks again for the interest on the forum and the help identifying and treating my pond vegetation.

Image of stalk: http://i1383.photobucket.com/albums/ah311/GMD0911/pndbossstalk_zpsf410od8a.jpg?t=1448474250

Image of tip: http://i1383.photobucket.com/albums/ah311/GMD0911/pndbosstip_zpsqfjqdtqd.jpg?t=1448474248

Image of clump:
http://i1383.photobucket.com/albums/ah311/GMD0911/pndbosstip_zpsqfjqdtqd.jpg?t=1448474248

It's coontail. Chara doesn't possess forked branchlets.

Thanks once again Kelly. I will not ask again.

Originally Posted By: coolpond

Thanks once again Kelly. I will not ask again.

CP: NEVER hesitate to ask questions until you're satisfied; and preferably before you invest in any control-measures.
I'm not always right (just ask my wife), but I'll always state if any uncertainty exists - which isn't the case this time.
Let me know if have any remaining questions concerning control-options.

CP - for what it's worth, I'd say 90% of us [including myself] find chara and coontail very similar and difficult to differentiate.

When in doubt, crunch a handful up and take a good big sniff. Chara smells a lot like.....something you don't want to take a crunched up handful of and sniff!

Kelly,

Will get back to you in February regarding specifics for control measures.

esshup/Kelly/Bill/and-or anyone with an opinion,

Back to confirm the plans. Based on calculations using 3.4 surface acres @ avg. of 4.5 ft depth, I have approx. 5 million gallons of water in the pond. I would guess that I have Coontail growing in 75% of the pond. I understand that the whole lake has to be treated and the concentration if using Flouridone, should be 90 parts per billion for a minimum of 45 days. I could also use Diquat with a copper kicker and a surfactant?

Would welcome counsel regarding next steps for timing, sourcing the preferred herbicide (Fluouridone/Diquat?) and application technique. I could see the submerged Coontail starting to grow this past week (Feb. 20th), so it's on the way. Thanks in advance as always for any recommendations.

Coolpond

coolpond, you named the experts and I'm not one of them, but I do know when I treated my 2 acre pond for an infestation of Coontail and a fully blanketed pond of Duckweed, the late-great Ted Lea told me, as far as application, all you need to do is "get it wet". He said it would evenly disperse throughout the pond. For me, since I have 4 diffusers, I just poured it equally over each bubbler and it did it's job.

Also keep in mind Fluridone is a complete vegetation killer, especially at 90 ppb. So if you have any other pond weeds, grasses, etc., you may want to say your goodbye's before they turn white and die.

The second year (2013) I applied it again to prevent any CT "shoots?" that may have survived, at 45 ppb (IIRC) and have not had any Coontail since. Yet I also stocked 8 12" GC after the first treatment to control anything new. Those I would now like to remove!

Again, I'm far from an expert and will likely be corrected but this is what I recall. It was great for me as the CT was so bad I couldn't even row a boat through it. And about 5-6 weeks later, the pond was void of ANY vegetation (excluding algae).

Very pricey, yes but for me it's what I needed and I have no regrets.

Kieth, Sounds like you have lived the coontail nightmare and I appreciate your information very much. I have spent a few hours on working through the realities of the economics of a full flouridone treatment for 5mm gallons of water. Will be very expensive $$$$.

Based on the information I have gathered over the past couple of days, I may be leaning toward a "phased Hydrothol approach". If my math is correct, I will need approximately 250 lbs./$1300 of granules to treat the entire pond over several phases treatment. The phases are suggested to avoid a concentrated depletion of oxygen (assuming 5-6 phases of 5000 sq ft / .6 surface acres at a time / 40 lbs. of granules / assuming avg. depth of 4.5-5 ft. ).

may be too much information but would again appreciate any thoughts.

By the way I also have a few grass carp ready for harvest.

I would plan on the phases being spread out over the active growing season, and over a few years too.

I'd like Kelly to chime in as he would have a better handle on it than I do.

Since Coontail grows from pieces and parts, and is not a "rooted" plant, what is to prevent Coontail from migrating to areas of the pond that were previously treated from the untreated areas?

Even though dye suppresses the bottom of the food chain in a pond, I would also consider dye as part of the treatment program, and give a long and hard think to feeding the fish in the pond if you aren't doing so already. Dye will help slow down the Coontail growth if you don't have a good bloom to limit sunlight penetration.

One of the ponds that I have to deal with is almost 19 surface acres. It is a Coontail/curly leaf pondweed/filamentous algae problem child. Then when the water warms up, phytoplankton really kicks in and the visibility drops to 12" and less. Last year the decision was made to use fluridone and dye, and that seemed to really help the problem vs. multiple treatments during the year for the weed problem.

Hmmmmm, 19 acres, 90ppb, $20 an ounce,,,, 32 oz per acre at 4' avg depth (IIRC)




AHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!

That ain't all. That was only one pond of 4 on the property, and all were treated...........

Same treatment will be done again this Spring, plus stocking GC in the biggest one.

I have operated my one acre pond for over 20 years of experimenting from one pond type with a bad infestation of Eurasian Millfoil. A concentration of 18 grass carp and other fish took care of this in 4 years without chemicals. After a winter fish kill I decided to try for a clear pond and was told that it was an oxymoron and couldn’t be done. It can be done depending what you put into your pond. So now I have a coontail problem right in front of my deck that my 7 grass carp will not eat so I may have to use a spot chemical in that area. I guess my point is that usually problems can be solved without chemicals but maybe not always. How's this for clarity.

coolpond, our winter weather in NE TX has been warm enough that the coontail has already started growing, so I'll start spraying it this next week with a Reward/Cutrine mix. One thing I've noticed about coontail in my pond, is that it almost acts as a filter and I'm guessing it's suspended solids and/or algae that cover it as the season goes on, and the water temp rises. The Cutrine addition at the recommended rate was the game changer for us. Right now, the emergent coontail doesn't have the silt/algae covering it, so I'll play with the mix, and see if the Cutrine volume can be reduced. I know time is money, but money is money too. If I can get an early jump on the coontail and save a few gallons of Cutrine, then that would be my choice, but not at the expense of time or money.

Esshup was a big help with localized treatments, and I went with Navigate granular around the feeders as per his suggestion.

We also added 50 GC in the pond(11 acres) two years ago, and although they actively eat all summer, the numbers we currently have can't control the coontail, so I'll probably add 10 more this year, and continue to add them every other year until they can help get the coontail under control. They do muddy the water when foraging, so I personally would rather have 10 to few, then 10 too many.

If you do decide to go with Hydrothol, please keep us in the loop. I for one would like to know how quickly it acts, and if it corrects the infestation long term.

Good luck with whatever you decide.

esshup, You're client isn't from Sinaloa and have a fetish for tunneling does he? (just kidding). My wife still has not bought into the "investment" language I use for farm and ranch expenditures as she continues to categorize it under the entertainment account.

Al, I can see my coontail growing as well and may decide to move forward with both the spot treating with Hydrothol and add a few more GC. I have a permit for 25 so I may add another 15-20. My water is very clear and I can almost feel the coontail starting to take off.

I will certainly update the forum with results as I move forward. I think I owe the forum some useful information instead of always asking for help. Thanks again for all the input.

Sent you a PM.

Update on attempt to manage coontail problem. I recently purchased 40lbs. of Hydrothol 191 granules and spot treated to the label specs factoring avg. depth and coverage area. The area treated was approx. 4000 sq. ft. or 15%ish of total pond surface area. I distributed the granules directly over an area of dense coontail. 2 wks later the coontail is thriving throughout the pond (60-70% coverage) and the treated area shows very little improvement if any. My water is very clear and with the warm weather approaching my coontail crop is taking over. Very frustrating as I am loosing the battle.

Coontail is getting very thick. Should I be concerned about the overall health of the fish. I am still able to catch some healthy LMB and BG when I can get to them. Coontail is so thick it is almost impossible to retrieve a swimbait or spinner.

I am now planing to add an additional 25 triploid grass carp and considering dye? I know it will take a year or so to see any positive effects from the Carp but not sure what to do next.

My Aquathol Super K has always knocked out my coontail in 72 hours without issue. I know it's not the same product, but I'm surprised you're not seeing better results. Maybe a fluridone treatment would be the best way to go at this point? I'm not a herbicide expert by a long shot, hopefully someone will be along soon. Sorry CP to hear your pain. FYI - I can't see how the coontail is hurting your fish - they are likely LOVING it I'm sure, but you can't allow it to get out of control obviously - which is why you're trying to treat it.

TJ, like any underwater plant, if the plant gets to be highly populated in the pond, it will consume a lot of O2 during the night and during cloudy days. Providing the fish have enough O2 during the whole 24 hr. period, it shouldn't hurt the fish at all.

But, it might contribute to a summer kill when the water temps get warm, all depending on the BOD of the pond of course.

Hydro 191 Gran seems to be the goto for dock and pond owners. Many buy it for the price and many end up using max rates to try and acheive any herbicidal effects. Like teehjaeh57 said Super K is a better way to go for the do it your selfer but since Coontail isn't a true rooted plant only holdfasts, throwing granulars is a waste IMO especially in depths over 2 feet. I'd stick with the basics (Diquat/surfactant to Burn, Liquid 2,4D or Fluridone to kill). You can get away with low amounts of fluridone for coontail. If you need help with an application rate PM me. Grass carp will eat it but prefer more monocot leafy plants like the Potamogeton species. The scissor teeth have a hard time eating plants like milfoil and coontail. They will do it but would prefer not to waste tons of energy making meals out of plants with numerous shoots and a big bushy mass.

PM me if you need assistance.

Ed

Ed, and Matt is wondering why I put Sonar A.S. in my pond for the Eurasian Water Milfoil when I have some Triploid Grass Carp in there as well.

"It's good cover for young fish!"

I told him that may be so but I didn't want it in my pond!

Another awesome picture!! The water, and the "fluff" on the bottom (and bullfrog's butt) looks like a pond freshly treated with Alum.

I have always been directed to use Aquathol SK - so far so good, but it's expensive and I would prefer not nuking everything else [my pondweeds] that surround it. If it's not the best herbicide for the job, just another reason to keep shopping. Can you provide more specific direction on 24D product you recommend?

If you like granulars and not able to use liquids you may want to try Navigate (gran 2,4D). Many of the herbicides sold in cans or bags you see in magazines for killing weeds off your dock are made from 2,4-D. Just know it won't kill any monocots(grass-like plants) same as your lawn and dandelions. Consult the label for recommended rates. We use liquid 2,4-D for large scale milfoil treatment bids here in Indiana. It works fine but you have to make sure you have the correct equipment for application. Take a look at Navigate in the 50# bag for coontail. Its made by Applied Biochemists which is a great company and has been very helpful to us over the years. Also make sure you don't need a permit. I don't know the rules in Nebraska.

http://www.lonza.com/~/media/Files/water-treatment/Navigate.ashx?la=en



http://www.cdms.net/ldat/ld4JS003.pdf

Thanks for the direction!

Navigate (granular 2,4-D ester) is sometimes effective on coontail, but I've found that early-season treatment are critical due to the product's mode-of-action. 2,4-D is far more effective on young/actively-growing "susceptible weeds" than on mature weeds. The same concept applies to fluridone, although it has more wriggle-room on timing than does 2,4-D.
Possibly the most target-area-specific treatment for coontail is a copper herbicide applied in conjunction with diquat; although the effect is more akin to a chemical-haircut (both are non-systemic in action, and therefore do not move within the treated plant's vascular system) - which isn't as critical for controlling coontail since it isn't a rooted plant.
When attempting spot-treatments, be aware that weeds from adjacent (untreated) areas may re-infest the targeted area fairly quickly.
Personally, I'm more of a fan of Aquathol or fluridone for coontail and many other problematic submerged species. These products are generally easier to apply and usually offer better cost-effectiveness than other products that may appear "cheaper".

A point to be made is that one should avoid assessing treatment-costs based simply on the respective cost of the products. Instead, treatment-cost comparisons should be assessed on a per-month-of-control basis. An "expensive" treatment that costs twice as much as a less expensive treatment may prove far more "cost-effective" if it offers weed-control that lasts 4X longer than the "cheaper" treatment.
Then again, there are many situations where unique site-variables will determine which product(s) will or will not perform - regardless of their costs.

Updated pics...

http://s1383.photobucket.com/user/GMD0911/media/Coontail_pull_zpscw3d5u4y.mp4.html?sort=3&o=0

http://s1383.photobucket.com/user/GMD0911/media/Carp%20release_zpsjf4qwbk1.mp4.html?sort=3&o=1

http://s1383.photobucket.com/user/GMD0911/media/Coontail03_zpszosz914e.jpg.html?sort=3&o=2

http://s1383.photobucket.com/user/GMD0911/media/Coontail01_zps8bv1zapp.jpg.html?sort=3&o=4

http://s1383.photobucket.com/user/GMD0911/media/Coontail04_zpsonqfxr9g.jpg.html?sort=3&o=5

http://s1383.photobucket.com/user/GMD091...?sort=3&o=6

http://s1383.photobucket.com/user/GMD0911/media/Coontail02_zpshx4vg7bc.jpg.html?sort=3&o=3



Thanks again for all the feedback. Thought I would update the thread with some pics from yesterday. Released 25 Triploid Grass Carp to the pond. Purchased from Arms Bait company near Dublin Tx and was impressed with size and health of the carp. $13.25 each.

Unfortunately the other pics should provide a perspective on the extent of my problem. Coontail continues to grow and now covers the majority of the pond. Still catching some healthy fish when I can get a lure into the water. It is now difficult to paddle my flat bottom boat through the water. A little concerned with esshup's comments regarding O2 depletion.

Understand the carp effect may take a year or two to show effect so I would like to consider spot treating a small area with Aquathol? Any recommendation on sourcing the product and preferred application technique.

Thanks again for the feedback and will consider my adventure as a longer term campaign. I am not yet earning many delegates but do have a lot of good support from my Pond Boss colleagues.

Those look like nice GC. I think you got a good deal for the size. Not sure why you are so concerned about o2. If you are spot treating with Aquathol Super K just treat your pond in sections splitting the treatments. Our crews use a new product called Aquastrike which is liquid endothall and diquat and it knocks out coontail fast. We also have application boats and systems to allow for a more accurate treatment but pond owners use the liquids all the time. I think you should look at using fluridone especially with introducing new GC I'd be cautious using products you are unfamiliar with. At least with Fluridone you will get all the coontail with lowering the o2 depletion issue.

Hi Rainman, the good news is the pond has only had a slight weed control for Cattail. I got into trouble for saying this before, but I used Defender bought at Walmart for less then $10, mixed 4 oz. to a gallon and it worked great. The pond is very clear because I don't have anything in the pond that would stir up the bottom. It is wonderful to walk around my pond as see pond life as if I was looking into an aquarium and even photograph it.

John, I have to throw this up there to protect my applicators license. Indiana law reads that if I know of an incorrect application of a herbicide (i.e. using a terrestrial chemical on water) and I don't say something about it, I could lose my license.

So, with being said, it is against federal regulations to use any herbicide for any application that is not specifically stated on the label. i.e., if the chemical isn't rated to be used in ponds, then don't use it. For instance, Round-Up is glyphosate based. It is not labeled to use in, or around a pond. ShoreKlear is also glyphosate based and it IS labeled to use in and around ponds. It's not the ghyphosate, it's the other ingredients in it that is the difference.

I looked up Defender in the on-line WalMart store and can not find it. The only Defender herbicide that I could find on the internet is spelled Defendor, and is produced by DOW. The active ingredient is florasulam, and it is a little bit more expensive than what you said you used, at $233 for 32 ounces. It too is not rated for use in ponds.

John, we just don't want to suggest violating Federal Law by using a product other than it is labeled for...that is exactly why the label says, "It is a violation of federal law to use this product other than described...". That $10 Defender gets expensive after a lawyer and $25,000 fine in Federal court.

I'm pretty sure its another knock off Glyphosate (Roundup).

Concern with O2 is based on ignorance and a prior post regarding the potential harmful effects of simply having too heavy of a concentration of the pond weed. I would like to try spot treating with Aquathol Super K. Checked Amazon for Aquastrike and could not find the product. Any recommendation regarding granular vs. liquid? Would prefer using granular for ease of application.

You won't find Aquastrike on Amazon and they only sell it in 2.5 gallon containers which is considered a hazmat shipping product. You can find it at larger aquatic company websites but most only UPS 1 gallon containers or less to use the ORM-D hazmat packaging size exception. Weedtrine D and Reward one gallon containers are available for shipping UPS. Just remember Coontail is a floater so my choice is to spray it on the surface or use Fluridone to kill it all.

Active ingredients may be the same, yet the surfactants can be deadly in even small amounts to aquatic life.

I promise I won't bring this up anymore. In past post I have photographed the bottle it comes in and the ingredients so I won't do this again. I did run experiments in my pond to find the right proportions per gallon for the best cattail control. I feed my fish for fun and when I sprayed in a tight area the fish came up and tried to eat the foam from the spray. No fish died. I have cattails that will grow from 20 to 30 feet all around my pond but for really interesting looks I cut out area's with no cattails to the shore. For a $10 bottle I use about 1/4 of it for the pond and the rest of it for the drive way. So the cost is $2.50 for what I do in my one acre pond. And no fish kill. I will put this to rest now.

Like I said before, what the label says is the law. It's not the active ingredient, it's the other things in there that haven't been tested. Just like running a stop sign or running a red light. If there's nobody around, you can do it and not get into trouble, or have anything bad happen. Do it when there is a cop there, or another car trying to occupy the same space in the intersection, and you will not like the outcome.

It's a public forum, you don't know who is reading it. It's MY license on the line if I don't say anything. There is no way that I will risk MY livelihood because someone thinks that it is OK to blatantly disregard Federal Law. Just because nothing happened in your pond, doesn't mean that something won't happen in someone else's pond if they were to use the same product. In todays litigious society, I sure don't want to throw $$ at my attorney to protect myself from someone that said "You recommended this, I followed what you did and it killed all my "X". I want you to pay to bring the pond back to the way it was before."

Sorry I misspoke, My poor brain isn't what it used to be. Defender is not the name of the chemical but Eliminator is.

John, if you take the time to read the label it says two things on it.

1) It is a violation of Federal Law to use this product in a manner inconsistent with it's labeling. READ ENTIRE LABEL. USE ONLY IN ACCORDANCE WITH LABEL INSTRUCTIONS.

2) Then under ENVIRONMENTAL HAZARDS it says Do not apply directly to water.