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When in doubt, crunch a handful up and take a good big sniff. Chara smells a lot like.....something you don't want to take a crunched up handful of and sniff! grin


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Kelly,

Will get back to you in February regarding specifics for control measures.

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esshup/Kelly/Bill/and-or anyone with an opinion,

Back to confirm the plans. Based on calculations using 3.4 surface acres @ avg. of 4.5 ft depth, I have approx. 5 million gallons of water in the pond. I would guess that I have Coontail growing in 75% of the pond. I understand that the whole lake has to be treated and the concentration if using Flouridone, should be 90 parts per billion for a minimum of 45 days. I could also use Diquat with a copper kicker and a surfactant?

Would welcome counsel regarding next steps for timing, sourcing the preferred herbicide (Fluouridone/Diquat?) and application technique. I could see the submerged Coontail starting to grow this past week (Feb. 20th), so it's on the way. Thanks in advance as always for any recommendations.

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coolpond, you named the experts and I'm not one of them, but I do know when I treated my 2 acre pond for an infestation of Coontail and a fully blanketed pond of Duckweed, the late-great Ted Lea told me, as far as application, all you need to do is "get it wet". He said it would evenly disperse throughout the pond. For me, since I have 4 diffusers, I just poured it equally over each bubbler and it did it's job.

Also keep in mind Fluridone is a complete vegetation killer, especially at 90 ppb. So if you have any other pond weeds, grasses, etc., you may want to say your goodbye's before they turn white and die.

The second year (2013) I applied it again to prevent any CT "shoots?" that may have survived, at 45 ppb (IIRC) and have not had any Coontail since. Yet I also stocked 8 12" GC after the first treatment to control anything new. Those I would now like to remove!

Again, I'm far from an expert and will likely be corrected but this is what I recall. It was great for me as the CT was so bad I couldn't even row a boat through it. And about 5-6 weeks later, the pond was void of ANY vegetation (excluding algae).

Very pricey, yes but for me it's what I needed and I have no regrets.


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Kieth, Sounds like you have lived the coontail nightmare and I appreciate your information very much. I have spent a few hours on working through the realities of the economics of a full flouridone treatment for 5mm gallons of water. Will be very expensive $$$$.

Based on the information I have gathered over the past couple of days, I may be leaning toward a "phased Hydrothol approach". If my math is correct, I will need approximately 250 lbs./$1300 of granules to treat the entire pond over several phases treatment. The phases are suggested to avoid a concentrated depletion of oxygen (assuming 5-6 phases of 5000 sq ft / .6 surface acres at a time / 40 lbs. of granules / assuming avg. depth of 4.5-5 ft. ).

may be too much information but would again appreciate any thoughts.

By the way I also have a few grass carp ready for harvest.

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I would plan on the phases being spread out over the active growing season, and over a few years too.

I'd like Kelly to chime in as he would have a better handle on it than I do.

Since Coontail grows from pieces and parts, and is not a "rooted" plant, what is to prevent Coontail from migrating to areas of the pond that were previously treated from the untreated areas?

Even though dye suppresses the bottom of the food chain in a pond, I would also consider dye as part of the treatment program, and give a long and hard think to feeding the fish in the pond if you aren't doing so already. Dye will help slow down the Coontail growth if you don't have a good bloom to limit sunlight penetration.

One of the ponds that I have to deal with is almost 19 surface acres. It is a Coontail/curly leaf pondweed/filamentous algae problem child. Then when the water warms up, phytoplankton really kicks in and the visibility drops to 12" and less. Last year the decision was made to use fluridone and dye, and that seemed to really help the problem vs. multiple treatments during the year for the weed problem.


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Hmmmmm, 19 acres, 90ppb, $20 an ounce,,,, 32 oz per acre at 4' avg depth (IIRC)




AHHHHHHHHH!!!!!! grin


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That ain't all. That was only one pond of 4 on the property, and all were treated...........

Same treatment will be done again this Spring, plus stocking GC in the biggest one.


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I have operated my one acre pond for over 20 years of experimenting from one pond type with a bad infestation of Eurasian Millfoil. A concentration of 18 grass carp and other fish took care of this in 4 years without chemicals. After a winter fish kill I decided to try for a clear pond and was told that it was an oxymoron and couldn’t be done. It can be done depending what you put into your pond. So now I have a coontail problem right in front of my deck that my 7 grass carp will not eat so I may have to use a spot chemical in that area. I guess my point is that usually problems can be solved without chemicals but maybe not always. How's this for clarity.


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coolpond, our winter weather in NE TX has been warm enough that the coontail has already started growing, so I'll start spraying it this next week with a Reward/Cutrine mix. One thing I've noticed about coontail in my pond, is that it almost acts as a filter and I'm guessing it's suspended solids and/or algae that cover it as the season goes on, and the water temp rises. The Cutrine addition at the recommended rate was the game changer for us. Right now, the emergent coontail doesn't have the silt/algae covering it, so I'll play with the mix, and see if the Cutrine volume can be reduced. I know time is money, but money is money too. If I can get an early jump on the coontail and save a few gallons of Cutrine, then that would be my choice, but not at the expense of time or money.

Esshup was a big help with localized treatments, and I went with Navigate granular around the feeders as per his suggestion.

We also added 50 GC in the pond(11 acres) two years ago, and although they actively eat all summer, the numbers we currently have can't control the coontail, so I'll probably add 10 more this year, and continue to add them every other year until they can help get the coontail under control. They do muddy the water when foraging, so I personally would rather have 10 to few, then 10 too many.

If you do decide to go with Hydrothol, please keep us in the loop. I for one would like to know how quickly it acts, and if it corrects the infestation long term.

Good luck with whatever you decide.


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esshup, You're client isn't from Sinaloa and have a fetish for tunneling does he? (just kidding). My wife still has not bought into the "investment" language I use for farm and ranch expenditures as she continues to categorize it under the entertainment account.

Al, I can see my coontail growing as well and may decide to move forward with both the spot treating with Hydrothol and add a few more GC. I have a permit for 25 so I may add another 15-20. My water is very clear and I can almost feel the coontail starting to take off.

I will certainly update the forum with results as I move forward. I think I owe the forum some useful information instead of always asking for help. Thanks again for all the input.

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Sent you a PM.

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Update on attempt to manage coontail problem. I recently purchased 40lbs. of Hydrothol 191 granules and spot treated to the label specs factoring avg. depth and coverage area. The area treated was approx. 4000 sq. ft. or 15%ish of total pond surface area. I distributed the granules directly over an area of dense coontail. 2 wks later the coontail is thriving throughout the pond (60-70% coverage) and the treated area shows very little improvement if any. My water is very clear and with the warm weather approaching my coontail crop is taking over. Very frustrating as I am loosing the battle.

Coontail is getting very thick. Should I be concerned about the overall health of the fish. I am still able to catch some healthy LMB and BG when I can get to them. Coontail is so thick it is almost impossible to retrieve a swimbait or spinner.

I am now planing to add an additional 25 triploid grass carp and considering dye? I know it will take a year or so to see any positive effects from the Carp but not sure what to do next.

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My Aquathol Super K has always knocked out my coontail in 72 hours without issue. I know it's not the same product, but I'm surprised you're not seeing better results. Maybe a fluridone treatment would be the best way to go at this point? I'm not a herbicide expert by a long shot, hopefully someone will be along soon. Sorry CP to hear your pain. FYI - I can't see how the coontail is hurting your fish - they are likely LOVING it I'm sure, but you can't allow it to get out of control obviously - which is why you're trying to treat it.


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TJ, like any underwater plant, if the plant gets to be highly populated in the pond, it will consume a lot of O2 during the night and during cloudy days. Providing the fish have enough O2 during the whole 24 hr. period, it shouldn't hurt the fish at all.

But, it might contribute to a summer kill when the water temps get warm, all depending on the BOD of the pond of course.


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Hydro 191 Gran seems to be the goto for dock and pond owners. Many buy it for the price and many end up using max rates to try and acheive any herbicidal effects. Like teehjaeh57 said Super K is a better way to go for the do it your selfer but since Coontail isn't a true rooted plant only holdfasts, throwing granulars is a waste IMO especially in depths over 2 feet. I'd stick with the basics (Diquat/surfactant to Burn, Liquid 2,4D or Fluridone to kill). You can get away with low amounts of fluridone for coontail. If you need help with an application rate PM me. Grass carp will eat it but prefer more monocot leafy plants like the Potamogeton species. The scissor teeth have a hard time eating plants like milfoil and coontail. They will do it but would prefer not to waste tons of energy making meals out of plants with numerous shoots and a big bushy mass.

PM me if you need assistance.

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Ed, and Matt is wondering why I put Sonar A.S. in my pond for the Eurasian Water Milfoil when I have some Triploid Grass Carp in there as well. wink grin

"It's good cover for young fish!"

I told him that may be so but I didn't want it in my pond! laugh


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Originally Posted By: John Monroe

I have operated my one acre pond for over 20 years of experimenting from one pond type with a bad infestation of Eurasian Millfoil. A concentration of 18 grass carp and other fish took care of this in 4 years without chemicals. After a winter fish kill I decided to try for a clear pond and was told that it was an oxymoron and couldn’t be done. It can be done depending what you put into your pond. So now I have a coontail problem right in front of my deck that my 7 grass carp will not eat so I may have to use a spot chemical in that area. I guess my point is that usually problems can be solved without chemicals but maybe not always. How's this for clarity.


Another awesome picture!! The water, and the "fluff" on the bottom (and bullfrog's butt) looks like a pond freshly treated with Alum.



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Originally Posted By: Coho Eddie
Hydro 191 Gran seems to be the goto for dock and pond owners. Many buy it for the price and many end up using max rates to try and acheive any herbicidal effects. Like teehjaeh57 said Super K is a better way to go for the do it your selfer but since Coontail isn't a true rooted plant only holdfasts, throwing granulars is a waste IMO especially in depths over 2 feet. I'd stick with the basics (Diquat/surfactant to Burn, Liquid 2,4D or Fluridone to kill). You can get away with low amounts of fluridone for coontail. If you need help with an application rate PM me. Grass carp will eat it but prefer more monocot leafy plants like the Potamogeton species. The scissor teeth have a hard time eating plants like milfoil and coontail. They will do it but would prefer not to waste tons of energy making meals out of plants with numerous shoots and a big bushy mass.

PM me if you need assistance.

Ed


I have always been directed to use Aquathol SK - so far so good, but it's expensive and I would prefer not nuking everything else [my pondweeds] that surround it. If it's not the best herbicide for the job, just another reason to keep shopping. Can you provide more specific direction on 24D product you recommend?


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If you like granulars and not able to use liquids you may want to try Navigate (gran 2,4D). Many of the herbicides sold in cans or bags you see in magazines for killing weeds off your dock are made from 2,4-D. Just know it won't kill any monocots(grass-like plants) same as your lawn and dandelions. Consult the label for recommended rates. We use liquid 2,4-D for large scale milfoil treatment bids here in Indiana. It works fine but you have to make sure you have the correct equipment for application. Take a look at Navigate in the 50# bag for coontail. Its made by Applied Biochemists which is a great company and has been very helpful to us over the years. Also make sure you don't need a permit. I don't know the rules in Nebraska.

http://www.lonza.com/~/media/Files/water-treatment/Navigate.ashx?la=en



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Thanks for the direction!


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Navigate (granular 2,4-D ester) is sometimes effective on coontail, but I've found that early-season treatment are critical due to the product's mode-of-action. 2,4-D is far more effective on young/actively-growing "susceptible weeds" than on mature weeds. The same concept applies to fluridone, although it has more wriggle-room on timing than does 2,4-D.
Possibly the most target-area-specific treatment for coontail is a copper herbicide applied in conjunction with diquat; although the effect is more akin to a chemical-haircut (both are non-systemic in action, and therefore do not move within the treated plant's vascular system) - which isn't as critical for controlling coontail since it isn't a rooted plant.
When attempting spot-treatments, be aware that weeds from adjacent (untreated) areas may re-infest the targeted area fairly quickly.
Personally, I'm more of a fan of Aquathol or fluridone for coontail and many other problematic submerged species. These products are generally easier to apply and usually offer better cost-effectiveness than other products that may appear "cheaper".

A point to be made is that one should avoid assessing treatment-costs based simply on the respective cost of the products. Instead, treatment-cost comparisons should be assessed on a per-month-of-control basis. An "expensive" treatment that costs twice as much as a less expensive treatment may prove far more "cost-effective" if it offers weed-control that lasts 4X longer than the "cheaper" treatment.
Then again, there are many situations where unique site-variables will determine which product(s) will or will not perform - regardless of their costs.

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Updated pics...

http://s1383.photobucket.com/user/GMD0911/media/Coontail_pull_zpscw3d5u4y.mp4.html?sort=3&o=0

http://s1383.photobucket.com/user/GMD0911/media/Carp%20release_zpsjf4qwbk1.mp4.html?sort=3&o=1

http://s1383.photobucket.com/user/GMD0911/media/Coontail03_zpszosz914e.jpg.html?sort=3&o=2

http://s1383.photobucket.com/user/GMD0911/media/Coontail01_zps8bv1zapp.jpg.html?sort=3&o=4

http://s1383.photobucket.com/user/GMD0911/media/Coontail04_zpsonqfxr9g.jpg.html?sort=3&o=5

http://s1383.photobucket.com/user/GMD091...?sort=3&o=6

http://s1383.photobucket.com/user/GMD0911/media/Coontail02_zpshx4vg7bc.jpg.html?sort=3&o=3



Thanks again for all the feedback. Thought I would update the thread with some pics from yesterday. Released 25 Triploid Grass Carp to the pond. Purchased from Arms Bait company near Dublin Tx and was impressed with size and health of the carp. $13.25 each.

Unfortunately the other pics should provide a perspective on the extent of my problem. Coontail continues to grow and now covers the majority of the pond. Still catching some healthy fish when I can get a lure into the water. It is now difficult to paddle my flat bottom boat through the water. A little concerned with esshup's comments regarding O2 depletion.

Understand the carp effect may take a year or two to show effect so I would like to consider spot treating a small area with Aquathol? Any recommendation on sourcing the product and preferred application technique.

Thanks again for the feedback and will consider my adventure as a longer term campaign. I am not yet earning many delegates but do have a lot of good support from my Pond Boss colleagues.

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Those look like nice GC. I think you got a good deal for the size. Not sure why you are so concerned about o2. If you are spot treating with Aquathol Super K just treat your pond in sections splitting the treatments. Our crews use a new product called Aquastrike which is liquid endothall and diquat and it knocks out coontail fast. We also have application boats and systems to allow for a more accurate treatment but pond owners use the liquids all the time. I think you should look at using fluridone especially with introducing new GC I'd be cautious using products you are unfamiliar with. At least with Fluridone you will get all the coontail with lowering the o2 depletion issue.

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Hi Rainman, the good news is the pond has only had a slight weed control for Cattail. I got into trouble for saying this before, but I used Defender bought at Walmart for less then $10, mixed 4 oz. to a gallon and it worked great. The pond is very clear because I don't have anything in the pond that would stir up the bottom. It is wonderful to walk around my pond as see pond life as if I was looking into an aquarium and even photograph it.

Last edited by John Monroe; 04/29/16 01:23 AM.

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