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Originally Posted By: Bill D.
Thanks for the response Esshup. Starter fertilizer and drill is the way I will go. $3K in seed for this so I want to give it the best chance I can.


Grass is planted!

Only 3 big "have to" projects left and they are already contracted and scheduled for next year....Asphalt the driveway, concrete the walkways and front steps and cap all the retaining walls.


After that I get to move on to "WANT TO" projects! smile


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Bill, glad ya posted about getting the seed in. Been wondering if your wife pulled ya through on this one too.


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Bill, I'm not a fan of asphalt driveways. They need to be re-coated every few years, are prone to moving around and aren't impervious to gas/oil.


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And they can get soft in the summer heat.


"Forget pounds and ounces, I'm figuring displacement!"

If we accept that: MBG(+)FGSF(=)HBG(F1)
And we surmise that: BG(>)HBG(F1) while GSF(<)HBG(F1)
Would it hold true that: HBG(F1)(+)AM500(x)q.d.(=)1.5lbGRWT?
PB answer: It depends.
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Is concrete some how cheaper in other states? Do you know the cost difference between asphalt and concrete especially with a long driveway?

I heartily agree with the limitations of asphalt, but that is like saying that you wouldn't recommend anyone drive a Chevy pickup because the armored version of the Cadillac limousine has a bigger engine, plate steel armor on the sides, bullet proof glass, better impact resistance in crash testing and uses run flat tires. smile

Seriously though, what is the cost differential now that gas is cheaper per barrel? Does the asphalt price swing quickly when gas goes from $3 to $2.25 a gallon and then back up again?

IN brutal MI winters with lots of freeze thaw cycles and lots of natural clay with water drainage issues, my brother spent an arm and a leg on a big section of concrete then ran tar to the road. The tar looks great, the concrete heaved and cracked everywhere. he isn't sure which was the better option. He know he has to maintain the tar too...

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No idea of the cost differences.

In 2010 Mom & Dad put in a driveway. Concrete. 14' wide, 5" thick (steel forms were used, not 2x4's or 2x6's), rebar and fibers in the concrete for reinforcement. 230' long with 12' radius on the apron corners. Continuous pour from start to stop.

No problems to date with cracking. Expansion joints every 20' and one down the center running the length of the drive.


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If concrete is laid down correctly, cracking/heaving shouldn't be an issue. A good contractor/finisher should be able to tell you if conditions are appropriate for concrete. There's a reason interstate highways are poured with concrete.


"Forget pounds and ounces, I'm figuring displacement!"

If we accept that: MBG(+)FGSF(=)HBG(F1)
And we surmise that: BG(>)HBG(F1) while GSF(<)HBG(F1)
Would it hold true that: HBG(F1)(+)AM500(x)q.d.(=)1.5lbGRWT?
PB answer: It depends.
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They also had a different contractor put concrete between the pole barn and the garage before the driveway was poured. That contractor said he couldn't get the driveway poured and completed before winter so they had contractor #2 do the driveway. The concrete that contractor #1 poured is cracking and moving. The difference?

The first contractor screwed them. They weren't there when the work was done, and he shuttered the business doors 6 months after work was completed so there is no recourse to recoup the $$. Supposed to have been the same specs - rebar and fibers, 5" thick, etc. I ended up cutting in an expansion joint (because the concrete was expanding and moving so much that it would twist and bind the service door closed on the pole barn) and found that the contractor did NOT put any steel in the concrete, just had the fibers, he did NOT compact the dirt under the concrete and it was NOT 5" thick. The concrete varied in thickness from 2 1/2" to 4 1/2".

That slab is 40' x 50'.

Mom & Dad also had that same first contractor pour retaining walls and a concrete walkway to their walk-out basement. This Spring they had to have contractor #2 come and tear out all of that concrete and replace it. The two 40" tall x 8" thick x 50' retaining walls tipped in 3" at the top, and the 50' x 8' walkway was heaving and cracking.

No footings under the retaining walls, and the retaining walls weren't tied to the concrete walkway with rebar and there was no steel in the walkway or walls........

edit: This is a good example of what Tony is talking about i.e., good vs. poor concrete work.

Last edited by esshup; 10/07/15 10:35 AM.

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Bill D. Offline OP
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I would love to do the concrete driveway instead of asphalt but the cost difference is huge. The quotes I have seen so far show concrete is 3 to 4 times the cost of asphalt. The driveway is around 4500 sq ft so that will be a big chunk of money.

As both the sidewalk and driveway are sitting on fill up to 9 feet thick, I am hesitant to do them next summer with only two winters time to settle. My concrete guy was here this morning and recommends I wait at least one more year so I may wait until 2017.


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Bill D. Offline OP
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Originally Posted By: Bob-O
Bill, glad ya posted about getting the seed in. Been wondering if your wife pulled ya through on this one too.


She always does! smile


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thanks for sharing esshup,
I can see how prepping soil, putting appropriate rerod, fiber, expansion joints etc is so important.

When I drive Indiana highways (not often) they seem really good shape. In Grand Rapids only the downtown highways are concrete most of the connecting highways are asphalt. Both seem to break down, heave at about the same rate. I think the freeze, thaw and conditions here must be different or something. Maybe your concrete is a better grade smile

I know my drive only has basecoat of asphalt and has held up very well, partly due to compacted drive and sandy soil with good drainage, drive goes up hill with good drainage. The same company, same asphalt on clay would have broke up quite a bit by now.

You get a big patch of clay and water can't go anywhere. I think my brother could have done more with drain tile and soil prep. i don't know if the contractor put enough rerod and fiber in. Can you know if you put in enough? He did do relief cuts but the long axis of the drive doesn't have expansion material.. That would have helped as well.

I don't know if cost is 4:1 concrete to asphalt but it probably is 3:1 at least here. Then you add the extra prep you are talking about (rerod, fiber, expansion, soil compacting, steel forms) I bet we are back to 4:1 or 5:1 cost.

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Concrete is more expensive than asphalt, for sure. It's also stronger, lasts longer, requires less maintenance, and deforms less than asphalt.

Both asphalt and concrete require prep work before laying down. And just like any other major project, the key to having a superb finished product lies in that prep. There are guys who move dirt, and there are guys who dig ponds...there are also guys who can finish concrete, and there are guys who are concrete contractors. Big difference.

I will say that for a residential driveway, asphalt may be all that is needed in many cases. Normal car and truck traffic is fine, the UPS truck is probably fine so long as he stays away from the edges in July/August. But if you're going to have heavy loads or lots of traffic on the drive, I would go with concrete.


"Forget pounds and ounces, I'm figuring displacement!"

If we accept that: MBG(+)FGSF(=)HBG(F1)
And we surmise that: BG(>)HBG(F1) while GSF(<)HBG(F1)
Would it hold true that: HBG(F1)(+)AM500(x)q.d.(=)1.5lbGRWT?
PB answer: It depends.
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Originally Posted By: Bill D.


As both the sidewalk and driveway are sitting on fill up to 9 feet thick, I am hesitant to do them next summer with only two winters time to settle. My concrete guy was here this morning and recommends I wait at least one more year so I may wait until 2017.


That's a wise move on the concrete guy's part. I would hate to hang my reputation on 9 feet of fill.


"Forget pounds and ounces, I'm figuring displacement!"

If we accept that: MBG(+)FGSF(=)HBG(F1)
And we surmise that: BG(>)HBG(F1) while GSF(<)HBG(F1)
Would it hold true that: HBG(F1)(+)AM500(x)q.d.(=)1.5lbGRWT?
PB answer: It depends.
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Bill D. Offline OP
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I agree. I have decided to wait until 2017 for both the concrete and the asphalt work. I added more stone to the driveway again this year. I have about 18 inches of stone base now (8 inches minimum recommended for asphalt). By 2017 I hope to have the best possible base for the asphalt.


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Bill, havin the packed gravel plan in mind do ya think that alternating where you drive on it would help? I'm thinking instead of just two tire tracks being packed tight ya might be able to pack more surface area by alternating.


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Bill D. Offline OP
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Exactly what I am doing Bob. It's 18 feet wide so I can cover most of it with one side of the truck or the other.


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Bill, I should of figured.


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Mom & Dad are on Propane, so they wanted a driveway that was sturdy enough that the fully loaded propane truck wouldn't crack it.

The fibers are mixed in at the cement plant. The rebar? It works best when in the center of the slab (I was told). So that means putting it on hi-chairs so it's in the center of the slab. Leave enough space between the pieces of rebar so that the concrete guys can walk around without stepping on the rebar. I forget how you calculate the size of the rebar - IIRC they used #4's or #5's in Mom & Dad's driveway.

I agree Tony. No matter the top material, the base has to be prepared or it will fail.


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Yes, rebar is usually set on chairs. Wire mesh is typically laid right on the ground, and pulled up into the concrete as it's poured, using a hooked tool. Steel must be in the middle of the slab to be effective. We would usually use rebar for footers, or where joining concrete to other concrete, and mesh for slabs. Mesh is much easier, and less labor intensive.

Fiber mesh is added at the batch plant most often, but can be added to the truck on the jobsite, providing there is time for adequate incorporation throughout the entire load.

Last edited by sprkplug; 10/08/15 04:46 PM.

"Forget pounds and ounces, I'm figuring displacement!"

If we accept that: MBG(+)FGSF(=)HBG(F1)
And we surmise that: BG(>)HBG(F1) while GSF(<)HBG(F1)
Would it hold true that: HBG(F1)(+)AM500(x)q.d.(=)1.5lbGRWT?
PB answer: It depends.
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Bill D. Offline OP
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Originally Posted By: Bob-O
Bill, I should of figured.


It was my queen's idea Bob!


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Bill D. Offline OP
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Not really Bob but I love to stir you up some Buddy!


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Yeah right. I believe it was her idea.



It was my queen's idea Bob!
I should of figured.


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Bill D. Offline OP
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Originally Posted By: Bill D.
Thanks for the response Esshup. Starter fertilizer and drill is the way I will go. $3K in seed for this so I want to give it the best chance I can.


Update...No rain in the forecast. I put down another 200 feet of erosion mat today in the areas below the popups for the dug in downspouts from the house. We can't water everything but started watering all the areas with erosion mat installed in an attempt to get some grass established in the erosion hot spots before the fall rains begin.


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Yep. It's looking bone dry here for the next week too. The next cold front on Tuesday is supposed to be a dry one.

We had 1/2" of rain Thurs night but it all came at once and left. We're back to being dusty already.


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We got about 1/10th on Thursday. Just enough to settle the dust and apparently put a slight seal on the ground. 30 MPH winds today with gusts to 40 and no dust devils....still watering the erosion mats and no rain in the 10 day forecast


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