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#414366 06/07/15 08:25 AM
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Will adding AG Lime cause release of some that bound phosphorus from a previous unsuccessful fertilizer application a month earlier?


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Chasin170, I am not sure what you mean by "bound phosphorus". My guess is it isn't bound, but unavailable to plants because pH and/or sunlight penetration is not in a range for some plants to utilize the available Phosphorus.

If you fertilized hoping to get a planktonic algae bloom, you need the proper light penetration, pH, and nutrients. Phosphorus will most often stimulate a rapid growth of Filamentous algae over planktonic algae's.

Often pH is too low in surrounding watershed soils, which effectively controls the water's pH. Ag Lime applied to both the water and surrounding watershed can very often allow more preferred plant life to grow,

Get a soil test done by collecting soils from several areas within the pond's basin AND the watershed. Allow all the soils to dry, then mix them all thoroughly before getting the combined sample tested.



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I guess I was thinking the P "bound " with soil metals in cases that not enough Calcium Carbonate wasn't in water??Didn't know if the "P" was cumulative once proper alkalinity/ph was reached.I'm sitting at 10 lbs of 10-52-4 per acre cumulative dose since April 17th where poor alkalinity was most likely the culprit per test strips

My soil ph was 6.5 during pond build and I added 1 ton/acre per Miss State to pond bottom pre fill up.....(I now know that is too low) I had added 6 pounds/pond acre of 10-52-4 April 17 th and got no bloom......6 weeks later added 2 tons/acre of AG Lime to water from bank.My ph is reading 6.8 (Alkalinity 25ish) reading on swimming pool strips

I added 4 more lbs /acre of 10-52-4 and sample results from TAMU should be due back this week.

I have no FA showing at this time and my Secchi has held at about 32-34" since April

No water flowing in/out BOW 11 acres going to 13


Last edited by Chasin170; 06/07/15 09:40 AM.

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I wouldn't add any more fertilizer until you get the test results back.


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Secchi from boat today with high sun was 48".Thanks,I will wait on results and post


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Analyses back from TAMU and alkalinity was 34. I started process again and added 5 pounds to acre and waited 10 days and added another 2 pounds 3 days ago.Secchi now at 22" with my first bloom of pond life.

Appreciate the info and and had a conversation over the telephone with Greg Grimes as he layed on his back recovering from surgery....thanks Greg!...quality people here.


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What you are creating is a PH bomb. The phosphorous is easily bonded with calcium. It is a very tight bond. Now when your PH changes to 8 or around 6 even which is a big swing the bond will break. The break will then be a massive release of both phosphorous and calcium. At this point they will all become available and water soluble.

Now your 10-52-10 and 10-52-4 is a very very good fert but can be touchy. I would keep your PH high and your alkalinity high and let nature break the bond. As it is used both phosphorus and calcium it will turn into a colloidal state. This state is very active but very safe like milk. You can drink milk but you do not want to leave it spilled on your nice oak coffee table or it will strip the finish off.

Chemistry has some very different states in nature and with fertilizer we are just giving nature the fuel. How it reacts and changes in nature is very different.

Time is most important let it degrade naturally and keep your PH up. If it drops too low it will all release all at once and you will have a mess on your hands and be looking for more lime asap. The product is all in there and being released slow every day.

Water tests will give you what is soluble but it will not tell you what is available to tap from like a battery. Alkalinity or hardness kinda dose as long as you remember for the Alkalinity to be XXX and you have a PH of XXX there needs to be a balance to the equation. For each positive ion there needs to be a negative ion. If the PH flips fast the ions are then released with the break of that bond.


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Quick little story. Everyone knows about silo gas right?

Corn is grown on our N-P-K and our potasium in the mix is potassium chloride or KCL. As the corn grows on this nutrient it is stored in the corn plant. Out in the field the corn plant naturally takes in the KCL and parks it in the corns cell. Doing this all year with a high PH at the roots then balanced in the cell with calcium and sodium.

The corn being cut and put into the silo is a nice balanced base (positive ion) compound with lots of starch and fuel (negative ion). Now in time in a silo with no air lots of moisture and pressure about half way down the silo starts to ferment and break down. This fermenting process changes the PH of the corn in the silo.

The potassium and chlorine that were sitting there nice and balanced all of a sudden have a PH swing. This releases the K from the bond it is heavier and ties up quick with the microbes and the CHlorine gas is released as silo gas.

Long story long. KCL was there in large amounts neutral in the corn as the PH changed (fermentation) it released the K and CL breaking the bond.

This process I expect you can do in a pond but the amounts of water and amounts of fertilizer you are talking about are not as dense. Just be careful as heat and sun light can make things compound very quickly on you.

Cheers Don.


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Chasin170, what did Greg say about the alkalinity and the fertilizer?


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I have never heard of chlorine as a silo gas. I thought silo gas was nitrogen dioxide. It smells like chlorine but it's chemically very different.

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Originally Posted By: Bocomo
I have never heard of chlorine as a silo gas. I thought silo gas was nitrogen dioxide. It smells like chlorine but it's chemically very different.


Yes that is 100% correct but the colour of the gas can be different. In more instances and study's it is in black and white that the gas is pure. Its not pure and never is and can be red, yellow, brown. The impurity's is what changes the colour.

One good breath of HCL from the fermentation process your down and out. There is lots of good complex acids created in the fermentation process but most on just Hydrogen and carbon compounds. Each equation must be balanced and if there is impurity's they must go some where.

Cheers Don.


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Dono,that makes sense to me.

Esshup,Greg thought I needed to add more and go slow.I did and now have a nice bloom (lost first one with a 5 inch rain) with about 20" Secchi.I have alot of P in the pond muck so I may take a wait and see approach . I stocked my bream/bass to an unfertilized rate so they are getting plenty to eat especially with the two feeders supplementing Aquamax.

Last edited by Chasin170; 07/21/15 07:30 AM.

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Definitely go slow. You can always add more, but it's a LOT harder to mitigate too much P. The food will add nutrients to the pond, either by decomposing uneaten food, or by coming out the back end of the fish.


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Originally Posted By: Chasin170
Dono,that makes sense to me.

Esshup,Greg thought I needed to add more and go slow.I did and now have a nice bloom (lost first one with a 5 inch rain) with about 20" Secchi.I have alot of P in the pond muck so I may take a wait and see approach . I stocked my bream/bass to an unfertilized rate so they are getting plenty to eat especially with the two feeders supplementing Aquamax.


You know there is a thread about getting a bloom after swimming in the pond. Its my thoughts that the nutrients are bonded and combined in the bottom of the pond. Swimming and mixing up those nutrients kicked the bloom even though the nutrients are neutral charged they are still available for biological consumption. I am a very big believer in that neutral charged compound fertilizers are more effective then high charged compounds. The hard part is getting a high electrical conductivity with out burning or damaging the biologics.

Cheers Don.


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BOW 13 acres with one measly bloom last year and lots of fertilizer frown

Pond stocked to unfertilized rate and supplemental feed only ( 1/2 #/day/surface acre) with Optimal

Location North MS

Mid March TAMU water analysis ph 7.06 (daybreak) alk 33 harness 28 (30 tons of lime added last fall/winter)

Started fert program again this spring on 4/1 SLOWLY adding (50#) 10-52-2 temp 62F @ 2 feet/secchi 40"

4/10 added another 50# 65F 40" secchi

4/18 added 25# 69F 40" secchi

Impatiemce brewing so added another 25# the next day 4/19

4/22 72F Secchi 32"

4/23 74F Secchi 28" an noticeable plankton in water

4/26 75F Secchi 21"

So far,so good!

Gonna play the conservative side of this program and shoot for a mean Secchi of 22-24" unless someone thinks that is unwise

Watershed will probably range to 9- 10 acres due to evaporation in late summer so wondering if I increase visibility (reduce fertilizer some to secchi 28 or so while continuing supplemental feeding) some to help with water quality and predation in this "draw down" period...thoughts?


Last edited by Chasin170; 04/28/16 05:16 AM.

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Chasin170, your alkalinity and hardness seem pretty low for 30 tons of ag lime amendment. I'd suggest adding another 30-40 ton with half in the pond and half in the watershed areas (if possible). The extra ag lime may be all you need to release the fertilizer and get a healthy bloom going.

Consider getting a barge out on the water to spread the lime over more of the pond basin. Kelly Duffie can get you a product called Calsis (liquid concentrated lime) that could supply the missing link to get your bloom going also.

Last edited by Rainman; 04/28/16 06:32 AM.


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I put lime in from one spot directly from truck and it seemed to move the needle pretty well.My numbers are pretty typical for our acidic soils so I don't know just how much improvement I will see with another 40 tons?My alkalinity actually didn't change any from a TAMU sample I sent in 6 months ago before adding another 10 tons

My plans were to spin about 10 tons a year from this same spot,but probably need to make a barge for better distribution but the single point worked pretty well IMO.thanks for the suggestions


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Go slow - you are on the right track. See MSU link below for more on lime and Fertilization and mgt. Post is from a recent one on production.


Here is some good basic info from The MS Pond Mgt book. It was developed by the Ext service (Universities) Fisheries Science programs. Many decades ago the first scientists started doing experiments on pond production. They would take a clean pond , add fish , manage the water (feed/fertilize etc. ) for a time period and then seine/drain the pond and measure the results. This was replicated thousands of times by different University programs for food production purposes and the results shared , tested and retested. Literally hundreds of published studies using these concepts exist. That plus aquacultures’ continued use of the data/concepts for food production have provided good general guidelines like those below.

Link -- http://extension.msstate.edu/sites/default/files/publications/publications/p1428_0.pdf

TO FERTILIZE OR NOT
TO FERTILIZE?


The decision of whether to fertilize a
fishing pond should be considered very
carefully. Proper fertilization significantly
increases the total weight of fish produced in
a pond, often by as much as three to four
times. But there are many reasons not to fertilize,
including potential water quality issues,
high expense, and the fact that it is a
long-term commitment. Consider the following
when making your decisions.

Fertilizer stimulates growth of microscopic
plants, called phytoplankton. Phytoplankton forms
the base of the food chain, and small animals eat
these small plants and serve as food for bream,
which in turn are eaten by bass. Phytoplankton
makes the water turn green, or “bloom,” which also
shades the bottom and discourages growth of troublesome
aquatic weeds.

Most ponds should not be fertilized. If only
a few people fish a larger pond, it does not necessarily
need fertilization to have good fishing. But in a
heavily fished pond, proper fertilization produces
the best fishing. Fertilization significantly increases
the total weight of fish produced in a pond, increasing the number of fish that need to be harvested. In
fertilized ponds, increase harvest as needed to control populations.

FEEDING
You do not normally have to feed fish in a healthy
bream and bass pond to produce good crops of fish.
Natural food organisms are typically abundant
enough to feed fish. But you can increase growth
of bluegill with a supplemental feeding program.
Bluegill readily accept feed and can be attracted
quickly to feeding areas.

. Here are some points to consider
about feeding:
•Feed at the same time and place each day.
•Use floating feed, with a pellet size small enough
to be easily eaten.
•Never feed more than the fish will eat in 5 to 10
minutes. Keep in mind that uneaten feed may
pollute the water.
•If fish quit eating, stop feeding for a few days.
Watch for signs of disease.
•Do not feed in very cold or very hot water.
•Reduce the feeding rate as winter approaches to
about one-fourth of the feed rate of the previous
summer.
•Automatic feeders give good growth results
where small ponds are unattended for long
periods.
•Do not try to feed fish up to large sizes without
some harvest to reduce the number of fish. Otherwise,
crowded large fish may become diseased
and die.
Following these simple rules will provide good
growth rates while minimizing the risks of deteriorating
water quality.

















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