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Originally Posted By: JKB
Well, that kinda changes the game plan here as far as DC. Bummer! I wonder how long they have known that their web site was in error?

Going AC will add more complexity and cost, but kinda figured that's where this would eventually end up. Being at 10,000' poses some challenges, and Mother Nature "owns" that place, so you have to work within her rules to achieve the desired outcome. Not impossible being remote and without personal visits to check things out on a regular basis, but also not easy on the wallet.

We got the GO on the project in Pueblo last week, but by the time that's installed and I have to enable this to run, could be next January.

BTW, that Gast 75R I posted a link to in a post above, I know who bought that. Should be here in about a week or so. Just want to play with it a bit.




Should have known it wouldn't be that easy. I really like the idea of having some solar winter aeration for protection. If it's cloudy, hopefully I'd have the wind and if it's clear I'd have the sun and a hole would stay open regardless. I don't like the idea of leaving the lake solely in the hands of a windmill. In the back of my mind I was already considering worst case I just set up an on demand solar unit like MnFish's unit to double up. With this news from GAST that seems impossible. feel like I just got punched in the gut.

I'm envious of you guys that have your lakes in your yards. Trust me it sucks to have your lake 1,800 miles away, day dream about it all year and then have such a small window to get all your dreams for the place accomplished.

JKB is the job in Pueblo a Lake project??
I'm definitely eager to hear about your time with the 75r.


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I have been following this thread out of curiosity. If I have it right, to summarize, the lake has experienced winter kill in the past. You increased the depth by 4 to 5 feet by fixing the dam last summer. You now have 22 ft water in some areas. You said you were going to stock native Brook Trout last Septemeber. Did you and did they survive this past winter now that you have deeper water?


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Originally Posted By: Bill D.
I have been following this thread out of curiosity. If I have it right, to summarize, the lake has experienced winter kill in the past. You increased the depth by 4 to 5 feet by fixing the dam last summer. You now have 22 ft water in some areas. You said you were going to stock native Brook Trout last Septemeber. Did you and did they survive this past winter now that you have deeper water?


Bill,

The lake will not officially be full until this spring/summer 2015 after snow melts. Since the water was still going to be so low this past September when I was back out there I decided not to risk killing all those Brookies and wait till the summer to put any fish in and install aeration. When I was out there last (September 24th) the water had come up about 6-8". Haven't seen it since then.

Last edited by wbuffetjr; 05/26/15 08:38 AM.

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Project in Pueblo is a steel factory that produces drill pipe for Oil Rigs. It was a fair chunk of change to compensate for the altitude, and you are 2x as far up.

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Originally Posted By: wbuffetjr
Originally Posted By: Bill D.
I have been following this thread out of curiosity. If I have it right, to summarize, the lake has experienced winter kill in the past. You increased the depth by 4 to 5 feet by fixing the dam last summer. You now have 22 ft water in some areas. You said you were going to stock native Brook Trout last Septemeber. Did you and did they survive this past winter now that you have deeper water?


Bill,

I rebuilt the damn last summer (July 25th) but will not officially be full until this spring/summer after snow melts. Since the water was still going to be so low this past September when I was back out there I decided not to risk killing all those Brookies and wait till the summer to put any fish in and install aeration. When I was out there last (September 24th) the water had come up about 6-8". Haven't seen it since then.


FWIW IMHO you made a big change in water depth and area by fixing the dam. Unless you are in a big hurry, I would stock some trout when the lake is full and run thru a winter test to see how they do now, but I am definitely not a pond pro. I am just an old engineer that has learned it is often good to see the results of one major change before making another one. In my business, we call making a lot of big changes to fix a problem a "shotgun" approach. If the problem is solved, you live forever with the cost of all the changes, not the 1 or maybe 2 that actually got er dun! FWIW


Last edited by Bill D.; 04/13/15 09:23 PM. Reason: Clarification

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I definitely hear ya Bill! I wouldn't say I am in a hurry BUT with such a small amount of time each year to enjoy the lake I would like to have it squared away sooner rather than later. So I guess u could say I am in a hurry to eliminate any possibility of a winter kill. If that's possible.

Last edited by wbuffetjr; 08/17/18 12:42 PM.

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Originally Posted By: wbuffetjr
I'm definitely eager to hear about your time with the 75r.


I got it more out of curiosity than necessity. The pumping characteristics fall in the range of what would work in your situation.

I just want to do some testing with it. There are some low cost controls available for this type of motor and also have a DC to AC power inverter available to try. I'll let you know how things go.

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Originally Posted By: JKB
Originally Posted By: wbuffetjr
I'm definitely eager to hear about your time with the 75r.


I got it more out of curiosity than necessity. The pumping characteristics fall in the range of what would work in your situation.

I just want to do some testing with it. There are some low cost controls available for this type of motor and also have a DC to AC power inverter available to try. I'll let you know how things go.


Sounds great! Thanks again!


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A company in Indiana that's been in the motor control biz, like forever, is sending me an evaluation rig to try out for 90 days. If it works to my expectation, they would like to be compensated for it, or else just send it back. Can't beat that!

A pretty innovative company in Texas has a really sweet little rig out. I can also get one for evaluation, but need to wait till this compressor comes in to determine if it's a fully featured PSC (Permanent Split Capacitor) motor or not. Hopefully it is, and if so, this little gizmo is going to rock!

See how it goes.

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Sounds cool JKB! Can't wait to hear what you think!


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Rather than wait, I sent an email to Gast Tech yesterday morning with a few questions. Got a pretty quick reply back on one question. I replied and asked about the other questions. Waited all day and at the end of the day gave them a call. Had a really nice chat but said they are not familiar with any of this other stuff, so he sent it off to engineering to look into. He said he'll let me know what they say. He was really interested in the gizmo from Texas tho. If the motor is compatible with this control, it will shave quite a few watts off and the motor will run cooler. Just have to wait.

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Sounds cool! Hopefully you will get your hands on it soon.

I keep thinking about this. For my application and the temps involved, there is no way around a heat source and that means batteries, correct?


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You will need some batteries, but you can look into convection solar for heat. Batteries will be used for other things, but possibly for spot heat.

I think you should consider building a small, but well insulated building. Maybe like an 8' x 12'. Not big at all, but insulate it really well. No concrete tho unless it's an anchor below ground. Insulate the floor, side walls and the roof.

I have a small shed out by my garden. It's insulated pretty well. Cool in the summer and retains heat well in the winter. If I need a place to stay, I could move into that.


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This project has gone outer limits you guys!!! We have been trying to come up with a way to heat our pumps to save on diaphragm life during the winter months. For remote locations as well. -20F makes for brutal conditions for any rubber, especially with high cycle rates.

FWIW -We never tested this last winter but we did prototype one. Simply used a pilot light burner like on any water heater. Put the flame inside of a 3" stack. Ran the stack through the compressor box, out the top. Wrapped the stack with 1/4" woven wire and rocks against the stack. Small intake hole to the outside for make up air. No flame in the compressor box as moisture would be a real problem. Indirect heating of the air. Never did the calculation but I would bet a 20lb LP tank would have lasted the winter.

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Originally Posted By: JKB

I think you should consider building a small, but well insulated building. Maybe like an 8' x 12'. Not big at all, but insulate it really well. No concrete tho unless it's an anchor below ground. Insulate the floor, side walls and the roof.


I will get this done this summer. Thanks for all the time you have put into this!!!


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Originally Posted By: mnfish
This project has gone outer limits you guys!!! We have been trying to come up with a way to heat our pumps to save on diaphragm life during the winter months. For remote locations as well. -20F makes for brutal conditions for any rubber, especially with high cycle rates.

FWIW -We never tested this last winter but we did prototype one. Simply used a pilot light burner like on any water heater. Put the flame inside of a 3" stack. Ran the stack through the compressor box, out the top. Wrapped the stack with 1/4" woven wire and rocks against the stack. Small intake hole to the outside for make up air. No flame in the compressor box as moisture would be a real problem. Indirect heating of the air. Never did the calculation but I would bet a 20lb LP tank would have lasted the winter.


mnfish! I was hoping you would come back! smile

This project has definitely turned into a lot more than I expected. Unfortunately, I have a dream for the place and I can't stop until it's done.

So you are using those pumps in temps far below the rated temps right? They never fail on you during the winters? What is the deal, you just end up rebuilding them more often!


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Compressor came in today. Kinda cute.

Looking it over I noticed a nameplate rating from Gast, which was 2.4 amps at 230Vac. Looked on the other side with the sticker from the company in China who actually made the motor and provided wiring diagrams, 3.0 amps at 230Vac.

0.6 amps at 230Vac is an added kick on a small solar rig.

Insulation class is "B", which would be normal for a standard motor like this. Automatic thermal overload protection is a plus.

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Originally Posted By: mnfish
This project has gone outer limits you guys!!! We have been trying to come up with a way to heat our pumps to save on diaphragm life during the winter months. For remote locations as well. -20F makes for brutal conditions for any rubber, especially with high cycle rates.

FWIW -We never tested this last winter but we did prototype one. Simply used a pilot light burner like on any water heater. Put the flame inside of a 3" stack. Ran the stack through the compressor box, out the top. Wrapped the stack with 1/4" woven wire and rocks against the stack. Small intake hole to the outside for make up air. No flame in the compressor box as moisture would be a real problem. Indirect heating of the air. Never did the calculation but I would bet a 20lb LP tank would have lasted the winter.


PTC Heater (PTC Resistor)



Engineered for use in control enclosures to provide heat and reduce/eliminate condensation.

12Vdc models available - Inrush current is high, but trims back after it starts. Eats about 10 watts and kicks out about 185°F convection style - Made in Germany - Pretty Cool! - Inexpensive!

We do a lot of outdoor control systems for various concerns, but we usually use the expensive Hoffman stuff. I like this stuff from Germany.

Silly me blush
Been worrying about derating all the electronics for the altitude. In order to follow NEC (National Electric Code), this compressor needs to be mounted in a NEMA rated enclosure (not something you quickly whip out in your garage, or practice welding on) It needs to bear the certifications for a legal installation, and they are getting tough on solar as well)

Anyway, design pressure for this rig is 15 PSI and we have a compressor that needs to be mounted in a enclosure. 14.7 PSI puts this at sea level with no derate on the electronics, only the compressor intake for the elevation needs to be derated due to the thin air. Kinda see where I am going with this?

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Originally Posted By: JKB


PTC Heater (PTC Resistor)



Engineered for use in control enclosures to provide heat and reduce/eliminate condensation.

12Vdc models available - Inrush current is high, but trims back after it starts. Eats about 10 watts and kicks out about 185°F convection style - Made in Germany - Pretty Cool! - Inexpensive!

We do a lot of outdoor control systems for various concerns, but we usually use the expensive Hoffman stuff. I like this stuff from Germany.


Now that is cool!! I was all worried about a heat source and you had this up your sleeve! Steeeeep learning curve for me around here.

Originally Posted By: JKB

Silly me blush
Been worrying about derating all the electronics for the altitude. In order to follow NEC (National Electric Code), this compressor needs to be mounted in a NEMA rated enclosure (not something you quickly whip out in your garage, or practice welding on) It needs to bear the certifications for a legal installation, and they are getting tough on solar as well)

Anyway, design pressure for this rig is 15 PSI and we have a compressor that needs to be mounted in a enclosure. 14.7 PSI puts this at sea level with no derate on the electronics, only the compressor intake for the elevation needs to be derated due to the thin air. Kinda see where I am going with this?


I'm gonna take a stab at it and probably sound stupid.... You thinking pressurize the enclosure it is all mounted in?? (I'm deleting this if it is way wrong!! haha)

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Bingo!!!

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JKB check this out and tell me what you think. I have sent them an email but have not heard back yet.

http://scirustechnologies.com/about_us_1.html


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jr- I sure wish I could add more value here but you guys are wayyyyy outside of my knowledge/experience. Very cool stuff!

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Mnfish no worries!! Imagine how I feel in this whole equation!! I'm the idiot for sure!!


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Originally Posted By: wbuffetjr
JKB check this out and tell me what you think. I have sent them an email but have not heard back yet.

http://scirustechnologies.com/about_us_1.html


That is pretty interesting. I was wondering if someone had a product out there, but never looked. I was thinking of rotating the panels to dump the snow off. Still thinking of rotating the panels to position them better for the seasons.

I ordered a PTC Heater today. Had to get a bunch of stuff for a coaster project and one of our suppliers stock them. See how it works.

Had to order a capacitor for the compressor. Not supplied with the compressor. Gast said you have to order these separately. That was 42 bucks! About a week out. Not even going to ask them about their rubber isolation mounts, I'll get them from one of our other suppliers.

One of the deals with starting this compressor cold, is it may not start. The motor has very low starting torque and it may not be able to overcome the drag of the cold bearing grease and piston cup friction. I'll toss it in the freezer overnight and see what happens.

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I set the rig outside all day, just because it was cold, windy, and had snow flurries, and the freezer is at the other shop. At the end of the day, the drag was noticeable rotating it with your finger from the difference of being in +70F temps. Not sure what the temp was, but probably below what is in the manual. When the cap. comes in, I'll pop it in the freezer. I can't believe the motor would be a huge weak link here for starting, but it could be if it's too cold.

Gast said these will not start under pressure, which we won't be (going thru an expansion chamber first), but if the starting torque is only 40%, that's not much. A 1 pound gerbil on a 10" diameter wheel could pull more than that off.

It's a very simple design, which is nice, and also think it lends itself to be fit with a much better/higher efficient motor, but that's cartoon and machine shop time.

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