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#406734 04/05/15 04:14 PM
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Happy Easter PBr's!

Well, we completed our pond renovation late last year and just finished the electroshock survey. I covered the renovation process with photos under "Creating Habitat" with the subject "Cover and Structure" if you'd like to see photos of the pond before and after adding water. I observed 50 to 75 small (<6") BG stranded on the banks when we drained the pond before the renovation. Because we drained most of the water, there weren't as many pan fish left to survey. But, I still think the survey is very useful and informative.

smile Here's the report -

Pond Size: Approx 1 acre (I'd argue 1.25 acres)
Max Depth: 15-17 ft (at full pool)
pH: 6.5
Alkalinity: 20 ppm
Hardness: 18 ppm

Tannin-stained water (probably due to recent heavy runoff) but expect it to clear by summertime
Aquatic Vegetation Issues: None

Fish Species sampled:

Small population of LMB (Three > 18"; One 12-15"; One 9-12"; Two 6-9")
Large population of small CNBG, HBG, RES (3-6"), Two-Three >6"
CC not surveyed but we know there are some

Our Objective: We'd like to have a pond for recreational fishing and occasional food (i.e., mostly fried catfish maybe every week or two) with a well-established natural food chain by the time we retire to our farm in 2-3 years.

Recommendation from the Fishery -

- Apply 4 tons of Ag Lime and 2 tons of Gypsum to increase Alkalinity and Hardness to optimum levels.

- Add 200 3-6" CNBG to improve genetics and for bait fish
- Add 200 2-3" RES for good pond health and forage
- Add 20 lbs of Tilapia for bait fish and algae control
- Add 75 6-8" pellet-trained LMB
- Add 100 8-11" CC for harvesting at 2 lb
- Consider adding 50 HSB for variety after water is improved

- Add complex hardwood trees in at least 5 locations around the pond
- Add an automated solar panel feeder

wink My thoughts -

I think the pan fish are stunted for lack of natural forage. At the same time, they are eating the LMB eggs which keeps the LMB population down. I agree that we need more cover to create a balanced population. But, the overall populations are very small right now and we have plenty of time. So, I think adding FHM and/or GSH now and then following the recommended stocking plan above is a better idea than going to pellets from the start. I've read a lot about establishing a food chain on the forum but the fishery guys didn't like the idea of adding FHM or GSH. Is this because the BG would demolish them?

I'd appreciate some objective feedback on their recommendations.

TIA

PS: The photos are a bit lame - I couldn't get the classic shot of fish rolling over at the surface while being netted. But, I'll be the first to admit that I'm a sorry excuse for a photographer...

Attached Images
IMG_0535 (800x600).jpg IMG_0540 (800x600).jpg
Last edited by WingNuts; 04/05/15 04:20 PM. Reason: Remove reference to the specific brand of pellet feeder

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Firstly communicate with the fishery guys and ask why they say no FHM/GSH. They should gladly answer since you hired them for the survey. I suspect it is because the current LMB population will eat all of them relatively quickly.

If you had fishery guys available, why did you not rotenone the pond when it was at low pool during renovation? Then restart from a new virgin pond. Fish renovation with rotenone would have been quite a bit cheaper than the fish survey.

The stocking plan appears reasonable for a good general fishing pond. Not stocking FHM/GSH forces the existing bass to prey on the current small sunfishes.

You might want to ladder stock (several each year) the CC so they don't all grow at the same rate and most need to be harvested at the same time at 1.5-3 lbs, unless you plan to harvest freeze a bunch of fish one summer. Or you like to butcher and eat 5-10 lb CC which becomes a special task.

Last edited by Bill Cody; 04/05/15 04:33 PM.

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Hi Bill, I will certainly ask the fishery why they don't want to stock FHM/GSH. But, I'm interested in getting other opinions about their recommendations which is what the forum is all about, right? Are there situations where you can't create a natural food chain? If so, what are they? I can't come up with a good answer.

As for rotenone, I considered this option but there's a stocked pond downstream from mine and we broke the dam on mine for the renovation. If there were an unexpected rain within six days of treating my pond, the water would have run out of my pond and treated his as well. In fact, my pond was draining almost the entire time we worked on it. Even after re-building the dam, there was no guarantee that the new dam wouldn't leak. It just wasn't worth the risk. He was already a little alarmed when my dirt guy broke the dam too fast and his pond level suddenly went up.

Thanks for the comments...


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FWIW The Illinois DNR strongly recommends against stocking FHM or any other minnow in small ponds. I do not know why.

Their recommendation is CC, LMB and BG North of Highway 80 and CC, LMB, BG and RES for south of 80.


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I don't think I would want to add feed trained over non-feed trained LMB if you want a sustainable fishery later on. My largest concern would be the small fish being stocked simply becoming bass snacks within minutes of release. Except for the Tilapia, every size mentioned for supplemental stocking has some fish in the pond that can devour it.



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Asked was ""Are there situations where you can't create a natural food chain? If so, what are they?"" A natural food chain should develop where ever fish are able to survive long term. The main differences will be in the type of food chain and amount of natural food (fertility) that will be produced within the system to sustain a fishery. Stocking new or different species (invertebrates and fish) into a water body can sometimes result in additional foods that are available. When chosen wisely, new additions will enhance the aquatic food web. Supplemental feeding and or fertilizing boosts or increases the amount of fish pounds per acre that can live in that water body.

In systems where a natural food chain will not develop are instances where the habitat has been compromised or impacted by some form of contamination usually chemical; pollution of some sort. In these instances fish are also not able to survive long term.


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Gents, thanks for the feedback. I noticed on the drive to the farm this weekend that the fishermen are out in droves... makes me want to turn in my resignation tomorrow and move to our farm - if only I could!

So the fishery guy came back with similar (actually, identical) comments. FHM will be devoured quickly because they are slow and there's an existing community of >6" BG and LMB that will take them out in very short order. FHM are most effective, and arguably ONLY effective, when starting the food chain from scratch. The pond also needs more cover (which I intend to add before we stock) for small bait to survive. He emphasized that I do NOT have a new pond and I already have a "great natural food chain" that has developed over time. That comment really caught be by surprise. After draining the bulk of the water from the pond, I assumed that any natural food chain that had developed would be decimated. Instead, we will be doing supplemental stocking to add volume and variety (i.e., Tilapia) to take some pressure off of the current forage base (CNBG and RES) and support a higher number of predators (CNBG, RES and LMB) - exactly as Bill described. The Tilapia will also help keep the algae under control.

I also asked him what changes he would make if I opt not to use a pellet feeder. He suggested adding 15 lbs of GSH to see if they can sustain their population. If so, they would provide added forage. Without pellets, he also suggested reducing the predator population (50 LMB instead of 100) and nix the HSB. He agreed that I should stage the CC 50 this year, 50 next year. He said he recommended the pellet feeder because it allows me to stock more pounds per acre - again, exactly what Bill said in his last post.

So, this coming weekend, I will add cover (if we don't get rained out). And, I'll go with the pellet-free stocking plan for now. I will install a pellet feeder after I retire and we are harvesting the CC and BG on a regular basis. And, one other thing... apparently, I don't need to add the lime and gypsum before stocking as I assumed. While these will improve the water quality and health of the fish, the pond is fine for stocking right now.

To be honest, I'm surprised at how consistent the advice has been from all parties. So, thanks for giving this a look over. I'm a lot more confident in our stocking plan and it's been a great learning experience.

Happy fishing!! smile


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Quote:
... makes me want to turn in my resignation tomorrow and move to our farm - if only I could!


I wish we would have looked at what we had several years before a health issue required me to retire on disability. I've since pretty much recovered, and am in better health that I was 15-20 years ago. I'm now 67.

Even though my wife worked for our financial adviser for a number of years (she still works for him about eight hours a week), and she was a CPA, we never realized we could have retired a number of years earlier. We had formal sit-downs with her boss at least four times a year, sometimes six times a year. Because we nearly had to file for bankruptcy in the early 1990s, we didn't fully realize where we were financially until we thought I was near the end of my life, a little more than three years ago.

Find an expert, and take a hard look at where you are at financially. It could extend your life's happiness by decades.

Regards,
Ken


Last edited by catmandoo; 04/12/15 07:20 PM.

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Cat, I'm aiming for 59.5 as opposed to 67. I'm almost there but, working in the oil business, I may be retiring even before I hit my magic number. The price of oil may take care of that. Meanwhile, I'm sprucing up the farm, building fences and renovating the pond so it's ready for the big move. And, of course, keeping the Goldwing gassed up...

Bill, I have a question for you... you mention stocking invertebrates. I seem to have a lot of algea recently (green/brown) which presumably supports some invertebrates. I haven't seen snails although I'm sure there's an ample population of mesquito larvae. But, how do you stock invertebrates and, if you do, how do you know which are the best for any given pond? Probably a stupid question but I'm drawing a blank...


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Cat, the oil bust may cause a lot of us to retire early. I was not planning on retiring @ 62 but I told my son it might be up to him to keep the business going because I was not going to fight another bust like the one in the mid 80's and I think that may be where we are going with this one. So like you I am working on getting my place set up for an early retirement of fishing and bow hunting smile America will never become energy independent because they can not see the forrest for the trees and will continue to rely on the Middle East and fight wars for the oil.

Tracy


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I hear you guys - tough times in the oil patch !
















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Originally Posted By: ewest
I hear you guys - tough times in the oil patch !

Yep, tough times in the oil patch but not a new experience for me. Owned homes in Houston, Midland, Tulsa, Houston and Plano between late 60's to early 80's - boom or bust!
If you needed a new washing machine in Midland in the 60's you could find a good geologist at Sears that would be happy to sell you one!

Went indepndent in 1980 - toughest boss I ever worked for!
Good times will return - always have - always will!
George



N.E. Texas 2 acre and 1/4 acre ponds
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I remember seeing oil patch relatives from Midland at a funeral. They were lighting their cigars with $100 bills. Five years later at another funeral, they were bumming cigarettes. OK, the first funeral is an exaggeration but their attitudes weren't.

A lot of these guys have an attitude that the good times will go forever and have no reason to save for the future. And, a lot of them never learn. I expect that there are a lot of $60K pickups that have been repo'd.


It's not about the fish. It's about the pond. Take care of the pond and the fish will be fine. PB subscriber since before it was in color.

Without a sense of urgency, Nothing ever gets done.

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All in all, I'm ok with the early retirement and I stay really busy outside the oil and gas business. I just hate to see all the young people in the industry lose all the have worked for. I've been there and done that already and learned from that. George do u remember the bumper sticker back in the 80's that said " Please Lord let there be one more boom and I promise not to piss it off" Will that's what I did, so I'm good. But I have already laid people off and most likely have to do it again and it really sucks. Ok let talk ponds and fishing smile

Tracy


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Yeah, and the one before the collapse that said "If you don't have an oil well - get one!

I have a Great Depression mentality - some folks say I'm tight, but I prefer the word "frugal"! grin
G/

Last edited by george1; 04/14/15 10:04 AM.


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Hi All,

Well, I’m now retired effective Jan 1st... took a while to hire and train my replacement. Still, I feel fortunate to retire at 60 and I’m enjoying the heck out of it. So, it’s now been ~5 years since we stocked the pond. The stocking details are listed in this thread. I made a few changes, though. I reduced the LMB to 50, CC by half, no tilapia, no HSB. I added the lime but not the gypsum. I am not feeding pellets.

5 years later with minimal fishing, we are consistently catching ~6”-12” LMB. We caught several 2-3 lb catfish a year ago but, haven’t been fishing for them recently. We’ve caught NO CNBG or RES although I’ve seen one or two small ones in the shallows on rare occasion. Granted, we’re just now starting to fish on a regular basis now that I’m retired.

I was expecting by now that we’d be pulling out some 4-5 lb LMB. So, the question I have for the forum is why aren’t we catching bigger fish (LMB, in particular) after 5 years? Did I mess up by not feeding pellets over the last few years? Is it possible that the CC (which we haven’t fished) are devouring everything?

My nephew (degree in fisheries and occasional bass tournament fisherman) says I need to add a feeder. I’m not sure what to do next except maybe to set a trotline to see what I get. Or should I go ahead as originally planned with a feeder? Any thoughts would be appreciated. 🤔

Last edited by WingNuts; 07/19/20 10:51 AM. Reason: correct spelling

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Originally Posted by WingNuts
We’ve caught NO CNBG or RES although I’ve seen one or two small ones in the shallows on rare occasion.
Quote
I was expecting by now that we’d be pulling out some 4-5 lb LMB. So, the question I have for the forum is why aren’t we catching bigger fish (LMB, in particular) after 5 years?
I think you answered the question just before you asked it.


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Have you removed any bass in the last 3 years? How much cover is in the pond for the forage fish to find shelter in? How much cover is in the pond for the predators to use as ambush areas?


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Esshup, we have not seriously fished the pond for the last five years. A few neighbors fished a few
times but threw everything back. For cover, I tried to follow Eric’s (Ewest’s) advice during the renovation (see his posts to me under Cover and Structure). The result is that I have tons of structure and cover now - much more than when we stocked. We probably could have used more cover at the time we stocked but there should have been enough to get things rolling. In addition, the moss has now taken over the rock piles and mounds that Eric had me add. Also, along the shoreline where the lime truck dumped lime, we’ve had an explosion of aquatic plants. That bank drops off pretty quickly to 20ft depth at that location and the bass we’ve caught have been along that steep bank.

I should mention that the bass are northern LMB which don’t get quite as big as Florida LMB. Even so, 12” is very small after 5 years. They should gain around a pound a year, I believe.


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Can you do a seine survey ? You need more then just catch info to make a good analysis. How does the water look (green/brown) and how much visibility? Do you see BG beds/nests ? Do the fish you catch look healthy (good condition/fat)?
















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We can do a survey but surveys are pretty expensive. The water is redish-brown (high tannins and red clay soil), there are spawning beds but not as many as there were in the beginning, visibility is reasonably good, and the bass we’ve caught are small and thin but otherwise healthy (no parasites, etc)


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A seine survey is not expensive! Just need a net and a buddy.

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If a survey confirms what you suspect, skinny stunted LMB and few panfish, then something is wrong. Honestly, I'd get a fishery biologist involved at that point.

Last edited by anthropic; 07/22/20 12:18 AM.

7ac 2015 CNBG RES FHM 2016 TP FLMB 2017 NLMB GSH L 2018 TP & 70 HSB PK 2019 TP RBT 2020 TFS TP 25 HSB 250 F1,L,RBT -206 2021 TFS TP GSH L,-312 2022 GSH TP CR TFS RBT -234, 2023 BG TP TFS NLMB, -160




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Yep... missed the seine part. That’s cheap enough if I can find a net.


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I had my nephew take a look. He has a BSc degree in wildlife and fisheries. He’s the one that said I should get a feeder. That may be the solution but I was wondering if catfish might have cleaned out the pond if left unattended. I wouldn’t think so but don’t know. I guess any predator fish could clean out a pond if they get out of control.

Last edited by WingNuts; 07/22/20 05:37 PM. Reason: add more comments

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