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#403785 03/14/15 04:09 PM
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I have a 1 acre pond that is roughly 40 yrs old. It's about 7' in the deep end and 3-5 in the remainder. It's aerated with 4 heads. Vegetation is being managed by a pond company via chemicals and some water tinting. About 9 yrs ago we added 50 channel cats (about 3"), 20 grass carp, 50 hybrid bluegills (fingerlings), several large bags of fathead minnows, roughly 10 LM and SM bass from a local reservoir and 3 muskies (2 fingerlings and 1@24"). Bass fishing used to be great. Many fish 12-18" and occasional 5lb-r'. We were told a one acre pond could support 2 muskies and the hybrid bluegill would get 1-2lb. Today the bass are few and typically 6-10" with an occasional very skinny 12-13". Bluegill are fairly plentiful but not like they used to be. Most are 1-6" with occasional 10-11" but none are huge. Channel cats continue to get bigger and are very plentiful. Most are 7-8 lb and all seem to be about the same size. Grass carp are fat and seem to be ok. I really want my bass back. Are the muskies my demise? I was considering tagging all fish caught this year to get a count and track growth. Any thoughts on how to balance or correct the bass?

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I wonder if your cats aren't the real problem. They are apex predators and will eat anything that fits in their mouths.

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That's a good point to consider - the cats never crossed my mind as the cause. I could see them eating all of the food but I don't know about the bigger bass that we used to see? Could a 5-7 lb cat eat a 1-2lb bass?

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Why can't it be both the muskie and the CC. The CC will probably eat the small bass that are born every year, and the muskie will eat the larger ones, thus in a few years you have very few, if any, bass.

By the way, if you have caught the CC to find out they are 5-7 lbs, you should have not thrown them back. Hard to catch them a second time.

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Have you ever seen a Muskie?

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Smaller LMB 8"-13" tend to be rather slender bodied and can serve as prime forage for larger predators that are able to eat them. If one or three of your muskie survived, IMO they are cropping the bass when the bass get to a optimum forage size for the length of the muskie. Do you ever see them or catch them???. What are their sizes (lengths)? If the 24" muskie survived, it could be 40+" long by now after 9 yrs. The fingerlings could be 36+" all able to eat a 12"-13" bass maybe 14" bass. Anyone know the gape size of a 40" muskie???

3 muskie eating 150 bass or similar body depth fish per year will decimate the bass recruitment of those LMB trying to reach the 14" stage. Muskie could also be cropping the 7"-8" BG. Add to that the CC eating a few smaller bass of 5"-8" your bass recruitment could be severely impacted as you suspect. Also consider that bass eat bass not just BG. Try target harvesting a majority of the CC and one or two of the muskie and see how the fishery responds after a couple years. If you catch one of those muskie measure its mouth gape. Compare it to the body depth of several bass. You can always restock a muskie.

You should be using various angling methods and recording what fish and sizes of fish that are caught by each method so you can see the data trends of the year classes of all your fish. This will provide the best information how the fishery is changing based on your catch and harvest records. It took 9 years to get where your fish community is now. It will not completely turn around in 2-3yrs. You are learning.

Last edited by Bill Cody; 03/14/15 07:37 PM.

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The thing that strikes me most about the species stocked is how little forage you stocked yet how many predators you stocked. HBG are as F1 about 90% male and only 10% female. In subsequent F2, F3 and further generations, they remain heavily skewed towards males. If no pure BG were ever stocked, relying on HBG to be the back bone of your forage base will lead to LMB stunting, even with CC and musky absent. CC certainly aren't helping the cause but them being able to feed on pellets likely removes much of the pressure they'd place in forage otherwise. No doubt there is some competition between some of your CC and LMB. The musky in the pond in my opinion likely died and aren't even in there. You mention skinny bass under 12". That screams of overpopulated bass. Had you said few bass but chunky under 12", then I'd be inclined to believe musky were heavily cropping bass. The few bass left would still do well feeding on minimal YOY HBG. This isn't the case though... Plus, the only other forage stocked were likely gone 2 years or less after they were stocked.

If it was my pond, I'd begin removing all LMB caught as I tracked RW. Once RW reached 100 I'd begin removing just under performers. I'd also remove as many of the CC as possible. I'd add bigger, 5"+ plus pure BG into the pond to establish a forage back bone.

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Rationale of CJBS is very possible. You would do well to follow it. I don't think you need to tag your fish at least at this point. Record the species and actual measured lengths of every fish caught by several fishing methods including bobber live bait and small hooks. Catching CC is way different methods than catching bass or smaller HBG. Record every time how long you fished with what you caught for a CPUE - see below. Know hybrid bluegill from pure strain BG and their relative density as determined by CPUE,(catch ratio of each and frequency of catch per hr of angling aka CPUE - catch per unit effort). As the fishery changes, what you catch and how often you catch it changes. Records show it.

It is entirely possible there are too many CC who are consuming too many bass. You may have to remove CC, add BG, and remove small bass to improve the bass. As CJ says, HBG are worthless for growing bass. That is why you need to know what is prevalent in the pond as forage; HBG or BG and is it capable of repopulating the forage base backbone on its own?

Last edited by Bill Cody; 03/15/15 04:23 PM.

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I can tell you that I have had a similar problem with my small pond (slightly smaller in area than yours but deeper) and I have no Muskies....CC are 100% my problem. As Bocomo said, CC are also apex predators and will eat anything at all they can catch. Ask the 120 3-4" HSBs that I put in there a few years ago, never to be seen again.

And as fishnchips said, CC's are notoriously good learners specific to becoming hook shy. I'm in the middle of draining and resetting my little pond for this exact reason. IMHO your issue is probably the CC's at least as much as if not more than the muskies.


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Musky gape data. Haven't found any measurements yet. But there is an excellent paper by Bozek with a good study of Wisconsin musky eating habits.
http://www.mi22.com/Diet_study.pdf

Highlights were:
Figure 1 was shocking. 74% of musky only have 1 item in their stomach. 16% had 2 items and going down from there. They are occasional feeders.
Figure 3 and discussion. The mean musky was consuming fish whose TL=22% of musky TL. There was a huge range (8-45%) that didn't vary with musky size in this stufy.
It varied with prey species. YP and others are more 10% while fusiform fish are 22-27%ish.
They cite Deutsch (1986) who found musky changed prey TL/Musk TL with maturity. For <60 cm, they found 17% prey TL/Musky TL but for >60com, they found 36%.

This paper was good but does beg for gape data.

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A 9 year old Musky in a 1 acre pond! Talk about king of the pond! If he is still in there you would have to see him! Dang thing is a least 40 inches maybe longer!! I wouldn't think it would be to hard to catch them though if there in there! Strap on a big ole buzzbait or large white spinner bait and hold on!!

RC

Or as DD1 would say. A 4 inch bluegill under a bobber should attract that shark if he's in there!


Last edited by RC51; 03/16/15 11:11 AM.

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I really appreciate all of the comments and it seems that the common thread is CC and the muskies. At least one of the muskies or musky are still in the pond as of last summer. A 40" was caught and unfortunately released. I will begin removing CC and Muskie asap and see what happens. Sounds like more forage isn't a bad idea either- are crappie suitable for a small pond or should I stick with BG and fathead minnows? Crawfish/ tadpoles? Any good?

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Personally, I would MUCH rather have a Muskie issue than a crappie issue in a small pond! On the bright side, if needed, a complete draining, nuking, and redo of a one acre pond would not be all that horrid on a budget.

What are your goals for the pond? If it is supporting a Muskie, you have MANY species that could be stocked.



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Muskieproblem goals: Bass fishing used to be great. Many fish 12-18" and occasional 5 lber.


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