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Hey WB, I don't know anything about Windmills for air. Thats Mr. Cody's area. I can tell you this. If that WM keeps 4 fusers going and actually keeps the water open I think you would have a much better chance of no winter kill then not having anything at all of course! Some open water would at least let that pond breath! And allow some D.O. to get into it! Can't tell ya for sure though.... Maybe you still have some fish die but not as many??? Sure fusers in deeper water running in the summer time would be great if you got the money / ability to get them in there!! Not sure how many you would need though for that size body of water? There is a big difference between aerating your entire pond and just keeping a couple of nice size holes open for winter!

RC


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Gotcha! Thanks again RC! Here is a pic of the lake from last summer. Water was the lowest I had ever seen it due to the dam failure. Built the new peninsula as well. Considering putting the WM out on the end of the peninsula. Very short jump from there to the deep water or anywhere in the shallows. WM will also be right in line with the prevailing winds in that area. Definitely not lacking in wind there.




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You said you get lots of wind year round. If that is the case, the lake might stay pretty well mixed in the summer via natural forces.

Are you where you can monitor temperatures at different depths this summer? The reason is that if you can determine you have a thermocline at a certain depth where the water temperature rapidly drops, then maybe aeration might do you some good. But if the wind is mixing the water pretty well, then summer aeration might be of more limited value.

Making the lake bigger and deeper might also help with the winter kill situation.

You could focus on getting the air for winter needs first to keep some open water. Fix the fish kill problem first. Then advance to deeper water diffusers if you still think you need it later.


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I am curious about the aquatic vegetation present and how the prolonged snow and ice cover might figure into the winter kill equation. Can you get a picture of the vegetation for identification?



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Originally Posted By: snrub
You said you get lots of wind year round. If that is the case, the lake might stay pretty well mixed in the summer via natural forces.

Are you where you can monitor temperatures at different depths this summer? The reason is that if you can determine you have a thermocline at a certain depth where the water temperature rapidly drops, then maybe aeration might do you some good. But if the wind is mixing the water pretty well, then summer aeration might be of more limited value.

Making the lake bigger and deeper might also help with the winter kill situation.

You could focus on getting the air for winter needs first to keep some open water. Fix the fish kill problem first. Then advance to deeper water diffusers if you still think you need it later.


Thanks Snrub! I could definitely take temp measurements this summer if I had the right meter. Is there a decent unit that won't break the bank that y'all recommend? Maybe one that does temp and DO? I'd have to guess that would get expensive BUT maybe it is necessary to monitor the health of the lake??? Would that be nice or a necessity?

Keeping holes in the ice seems like what I need to setup for first and foremost. If that is the case, then maybe I stick with the American Eagle unit since it produces the most CFM but can't go deep?? I have yearly budget to spend on the place and I could get a second WM to do deep water in 2016 if needed.

Sound like a solid plan?


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Originally Posted By: Shorty
I am curious about the aquatic vegetation present and how the prolonged snow and ice cover might figure into the winter kill equation. Can you get a picture of the vegetation for identification?


Shorty I can definitely get a pic this summer. I had a biologist tell me what comprised the majority of our weeds but I didn't write the dang name of it down. He did say that the stuff could not grow in deeper water and us deepening the lake should eliminate a bunch of it. It was worse in 2014 than I have ever seen and I am assuming it was because of the low water levels and more shallow areas than normal.

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Man that is one good looking pond!! That's something you see right out of those Alaska Discovery Channels. Sweet looking WB!!

RC


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Originally Posted By: RC51
Man that is one good looking pond!! That's something you see right out of those Alaska Discovery Channels. Sweet looking WB!!

RC


Thanks RC! If I can get it right and keep some fish alive, it has grown some MONSTER trout in the past!!


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Here are some fish a friend caught a year after we did not have a big kill. These fish survived two winters at most and I think really only one. There is so much feed in the lake the fish grow extremely fast! You can look anywhere in the lake and see scuds every where and for the last 3-4 years fat head minnows too. I can't wait to get some air to the lake and see what we can produce!


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I didn't see where anyone mentioned it, but if you have plenty of wind, why not opt for a small-ish wind turbine to generate electrical power? Then you could use better quality air compressors? If you are getting wind/wave action, keeping one spot open may be all you need for degassing the lake during winter ice over. keeping some strips snow free by either plowing or flooding to melt snow may be good also.



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Originally Posted By: Rainman
I didn't see where anyone mentioned it, but if you have plenty of wind, why not opt for a small-ish wind turbine to generate electrical power? Then you could use better quality air compressors? If you are getting wind/wave action, keeping one spot open may be all you need for degassing the lake during winter ice over. keeping some strips snow free by either plowing or flooding to melt snow may be good also.


One day I hope to have solar panels and a wind turbine up there for the cabin. Then running real air compressors would be no problem. ?Unfortunately the budget isn't there for all that this year. Only way to plow it would be with a snow cat. If only I could win the lottery!!!


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An ice auger and 2" trash pump will melt a LOT of snow cover to allow light penetration and oxygen production



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Crazy idea, but doesn't Colorado get like 300+ days of sun and even more intense in the mountain? If someone could come up with a nontoxic but long lasting black dye could you keep the water just above the freezing mark so that even a smaller solar system could keep up? Or maybe you could target a region of the shallows where you could put black tarps or something on the bottom? I wonder how much heat that sun could produce even in the winter at that altitude?

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Originally Posted By: Rainman
An ice auger and 2" trash pump will melt a LOT of snow cover to allow light penetration and oxygen production


ahhh ok got it!


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Repost so I am not hijacking anymore!!


Ok So I got to talk to Esshup. He suggested three 9" Vertex diffusers. He said each one requires .5 cfm minimum to open but 1 cfm would be better. Then after derating for the altitude I'm looking for 4 CFM. The deepest water at my place is 21-22' so PSI after cushion and derating 15 PSI should cover it. Sooo, Three diffusers and a 4 CFM 15 PSI compressor. Sound good to you guys?

As far as compressors, do I just look thru all the GAST models and find one with those stats? Does it matter what design? Definitely looking for durability. If the compressor fails up there, it could be months before anyone knows and a trip up there to check on it would only happen in the snowcat!! (not saying that wouldn't be fun)

Maybe one of these guys?? Both look like they're available in BLDC
http://www.gastmfg.com/support_documents/RTD312rE.pdf
http://www.gastmfg.com/support_documents/RTD348rC.pdf

Thanks guys!


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The RTD Models are European set up for 50 cycles of A/C electricity. The USA uses 60 cycles. Using the 50 cycle unit will work, and you will actually get a few more RPS/Output, but the lifespan will be much shorter and make sure it is in a fireproof enclosure because it'll get damned hot!

Some of the best Gast Units are the 71R, 72R, and 75R twin cylinder models, in ascending CFM maximum order. The 75R models are awesome!

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Originally Posted By: Rainman
The RTD Models are European set up for 50 cycles of A/C electricity. The USA uses 60 cycles. Using the 50 cycle unit will work, and you will actually get a few more RPS/Output, but the lifespan will be much shorter and make sure it is in a fireproof enclosure because it'll get damned hot!

Some of the best Gast Units are the 71R, 72R, and 75R twin cylinder models, in ascending CFM maximum order. The 75R models are awesome!


Ok, got it. So that's the difference between the 50 and 60 hertz. From reading on here I have also learned that 24v volt will be more efficient. I'm that uneducated. No joke.

Sooo, this one seem more what I need (seems like it can do either 50 or 60 hertz)?
http://www.gastmfg.com/support_documents/RTD809.pdf

In the details it says these can be ordered in 24 volt and brushless DC. Do you just call Gast and they make one up for you like that?

As far as the heat..... that leads to more questions. Will both the 50 & 60 hertz units get that hot? What kind of enclosure does one house these things in? Maybe that much heat could be an advantage in the winter up there when it is -20?? If I ever add batteries to this setup, it seems like having the batteries in the same enclosure would be an advantage in the winter and a big no no in the summer??

Assuming that pump would fit my application, the real fun begins. What would I need to run it?

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I looked at this earlier today (on the other thread) and those particular motors appear to be a 50Hz design. If they are available in BLDC, that would be great.

I was looking at the 75R earlier to give a bit of cushion for your application. They say they are available in BLDC, but don't give any specs. I wonder if it's a custom compressor then?

They do make these for a lot of other companies around the world, and mention that if you see something in their standard lineup, but need a different configuration or motor, they just may be making it for someone else.

You really do want to stick with DC. It's quite straight forward, and would be best in an un-managed remote site like you have.

AC will be much more complicated and more expensive for a remote rig like this.

Got a bit further today on the grid tie micro inverters running them off grid. I better understand the problems now, but don't think they are that much of an issue.

I suppose the next step for me is to do the cartoons and get some parts on order and give it a whirl.

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Does anybody know if Gast makes a linear piston compressor? I have never used one but just looking at the mechanics how a linear piston pump works, they should be very reliable.


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I think they have a few.

Depends on the design, but a lot of linear's are just choke coils that oscillate at line frequency. Nice thing is you can adjust the voltage with a dimmer switch. Still gonna beat at 60Hz, but the intensity will vary with voltage.

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Originally Posted By: JKB
I think they have a few.


JKB are those the ones they have listed as "pistons". Right under rocking pistons on their site? If so, in the desciption they do say

"Gast Piston air compressors and vacuum pumps are built to withstand the most rugged operating conditions with corrosion-resistant materials used for critical internal parts. Ring design provides consistent flows throughout the service life of the unit"

From a couple quick searches, the Piston Model 4L seem to cost about the same as the comparable rocking piston models 75R, they are available in 24V BUT they do not say available in BLDC. IS the BLDC option a big enough factor to stick with the 75R?

Edit:
Attached link just for reference
http://www.gastmfg.com/product_overview_compressors_pumps.aspx

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The linears are further down. They don't have the PSI you need.

At your elevation, I would stick with the BLDC motor, whichever one is the most suitable for your requirements. The 75R would work if they really offer it in BLDC for a single purchase.

If anyone is interested, there is a new 230Vac 75R on ebay for $280.00 or best offer. http://www.ebay.com/itm/GAST-75R645-P101...P-/291408932091

I was going to have a friend of mine buy it for me, but really don't need one at the moment.

EDIT: I've been looking all morning, and am not coming up with an off the shelf solution in BLDC for your application. Not even in multiple smaller pumps.

I'm also finding that your ambient air temperature in the winter may be too cold for these to operate without a heat source.

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Originally Posted By: JKB
The linears are further down. They don't have the PSI you need.

At your elevation, I would stick with the BLDC motor, whichever one is the most suitable for your requirements. The 75R would work if they really offer it in BLDC for a single purchase.

If anyone is interested, there is a new 230Vac 75R on ebay for $280.00 or best offer. http://www.ebay.com/itm/GAST-75R645-P101...P-/291408932091

I was going to have a friend of mine buy it for me, but really don't need one at the moment.

EDIT: I've been looking all morning, and am not coming up with an off the shelf solution in BLDC for your application. Not even in multiple smaller pumps.

I'm also finding that your ambient air temperature in the winter may be too cold for these to operate without a heat source.


I filled out Gast's custom pump questionaire asking about the BLDC 75r. Hopefully I will hear back from them soon. I will probably be too impatient and call them Monday.


Heat source..... I guess this couldn't be solved by enclosure could it? I could build some sort of "dog house", one for summer and one for winter. Put the winter one on when I leave in late September. I know that wouldn't help it at startup in the dead of winter and maybe that's when it would need the most help. I'm sure you've got an idea!! Thanks for spending so much tme on this!! If you ever make it out to CO, you're invited up to go fishing!!


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From Gast

"Sorry for the confusion here but the web information is incorrect for these units are not offered in DC voltage at all. The web designer did a copy and paste when they should not have.
The only DC voltage units we offer are in either the DOA, ROA, MOA & the piston units 2HAH, 3HBB.

With the DOA, MOA have to be above 40°F or the diaphragm will get to stiff for starting.

The ROA, 1H, 2H, 3H, series the bearing grease is what will be the issue here and theses unit are rated for 32°F anything colder I would recommend that a light be kept on when the units are off to keep the heat up as close to the 32°F

Lead time depending on the unit 10 to 25day."

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Well, that kinda changes the game plan here as far as DC. Bummer! I wonder how long they have known that their web site was in error?

Going AC will add more complexity and cost, but kinda figured that's where this would eventually end up. Being at 10,000' poses some challenges, and Mother Nature "owns" that place, so you have to work within her rules to achieve the desired outcome. Not impossible being remote and without personal visits to check things out on a regular basis, but also not easy on the wallet.

We got the GO on the project in Pueblo last week, but by the time that's installed and I have to enable this to run, could be next January.

BTW, that Gast 75R I posted a link to in a post above, I know who bought that. Should be here in about a week or so. Just want to play with it a bit.

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