Pond Boss Forums STOCKING A NEW POND Types of fish to choose can smallmouth bass live in east Texas pond?

Perfect for bullheads!

Bullheads, green sunfish, tilapia, and probably the infamous "green carp" (aka LMB) would do well in "How 'bout in a record heat wave drought ridden East Texas pond?". Actually truth be known, the HSB are likely less tolerant of Texas pond waters than SMB. HSB are stressed when water gets really warm in TX which is why they tend to not grow as large or live as long in far southern pond habitats compared to the HSB in more northern states than TX. Big waters in Texas usually have some deeper cooler waters which will provide HSB some cooler water refuge areas during the heat of summer.

Thanks Omaha.

I have one pond with no LMB in it...there are bluegills and few cats.

I guess I could try smallies in there..but it looks like George
may be right...I don't see anyone selling smallies in Texas.

Bill my friend - you got it right!
But it's not the fish in the fight - it's the fight in the fish!

Zep - Smallies will struggle with BG as the main forage fish. In most ponds with SMB as the main predator, the BG will generally overpopulate unless you remove numerous BG by some other means than predation by SMB. Catfish larger than 16"-18" can prey on BG.

Some members have bluegill in with their smallies, but they also have other teeth helping, like wipers and walleyes.

Ok Bill thanks.
What is the best forage for pond smallies?

SMB like crayfish far more than LMB. A pond stocking strategy aimed at SMB should include crayfish in my opinion. I would also look at stocking grass shrimp.

As far as forage fish, the classic FHM would be the back bone to start out. However, after the SMB successfully reproduce the FHM will likely disappear from the pond. When you see FHM numbers starting to dwindle, I'd stocked 5 pounds per acre of larger brooder sized GSH. RES can be stocked as an alternative forage as well with the added benefit of snail control. If you can source LCS, they would likely be an excellent forage choice for SMB as well. When Chris drains his pond, he'll have to see if any of his LCS survived.

Other far less conventional species which I think make excellent forage for SMB include RBS with the added benefit of an additional panfish to catch. Banded killifish would also be an excellent choice. Orangespotted sunfish would be a possible forage option. These species are viable options for Texas waters. More northern ponds have further unconventional species as options.

FOOD for THOUGHT I love catching smallies. they fight and fight. A 4 lb small mouth is a handful of "GET THE NET". Now all that being said, I would love to stock some smallies in my 3.52 acre pond with 11 to 12 foot water depth. Pond location is N E Texas. With that being said, I am stocking 10,000 TFS asap, prior to their spawn. I already have 120 pounds of fatheads and spawning is coming up in the next few weeks. The pond has CNBG and RES. Crawfish are going in real soon (80 lbs), and yes, I am trying to stock grass shrimp. So plans are to stock LMB and HSB but I am wondering if the smallies would feast on the TFS? What if I substituted the HSB with the smallies? I understand I might not get a spawn with the smallies. But I know I will not get a spawn with the HSB. So lets just call that same, same. I have restock maybe yearly for maintenance, and I might have to do the same with the SMB. And what about aerating, how would this effect the smallies, would this improve the possibility of a SMB spawn?
Thanks
Tracy

Tracy, I don't think it's quite that simple. HSB fill a different niche than SMB, so simply substituting them would not have the same effect. Smallies still relate to structure, while HSB are more pelagic in nature, roaming open water. Because of this, in the presence of LMB, I would give HSB a better chance of being successful.

I would throw the HSB and SMB in there and not the LMB if your heart isn't absolutely set on LMB. You can always add them later.

TGW1 - I agree with esshup. Realize that when you add LMB in with the SMB, the SMB will disappear after only a few years (see below). I will look for the Dr.Willis PBoss reference for this(now below). If it were my pond, I would "do" the SMB and HSB plan with your mentioned forage, then after 4-8yrs if you don't like the results then add your LMB. Can we assume you have more ponds than this new 3.52 ac pond? If the LMB are already in the pond, IMO you are going to need George1 to help you get some adult smallies out of LK Texoma. Stocking fingerling smallies in with LMB will IMO be a waste of money.

Dr. Willis quote from:
http://www.bassresource.com/fish_biology/stocking_smallmouth_bass.html
"What about smallmouth combined with largemouth bass? Start with "traditional" advice from fishery biologists. Do not try to manage a pond both largemouth bass and smallmouth bass. These two species don't play well together. Once largemouth bass gain entry to a pond or small impoundment with existing smallmouth bass, largemouths quickly out-compete smallmouths. Whether this occurs through competition between the two predators, or the more piscivorous largemouths simply eat most juvenile smallmouths produced, is not known. I suspect both.
While working in Kansas, I observed two such occurrences where largemouths gained entry to a small water body being managed with smallmouths. In both cases, I was astounded how quickly smallmouths disappeared. In a couple of South Dakota scenarios, results have not been quite as dramatic. In both cases, smallmouths actually hung on in low numbers, and did not completely disappear. However, largemouth bass now make up a big majority of black bass in these ponds." From:
What about smallmouth combined with largemouth bass? Start with "traditional" advice from fishery biologists. Do not try to manage a pond both largemouth bass and smallmouth bass. These two species don't play well together. Once largemouth bass gain entry to a pond or small impoundment with existing smallmouth bass, largemouths quickly out-compete smallmouths. Whether this occurs through competition between the two predators, or the more piscivorous largemouths simply eat most juvenile smallmouths produced, is not known. I suspect both.
While working in Kansas, I observed two such occurrences where largemouths gained entry to a small water body being managed with smallmouths. In both cases, I was astounded how quickly smallmouths disappeared. In a couple of South Dakota scenarios, results have not been quite as dramatic. In both cases, smallmouths actually hung on in low numbers, and did not completely disappear. However, largemouth bass now make up a big majority of black bass in these ponds."" end quote.


LARGEMOUTHS & SMALLMOUTHS IN THE SAME POND? Dave Willis explores his experiences and advice about feasibility of co-habitation of SMB & LMB in small ponds. In the article Dr Dave studied a 1.7 ac gravel pit pond with only SMB. A high water event introduced LMB into the pond. After just 2 yrs, largemouths comprised 80% of the bass numbers. After 8 years a few adult smallies remained and after 10 no SMB could be collected. Dr Dave concluded that some SMB can be maintained as bonus fish long term by periodically stocking some subadult to adult smallies (8"-12") to "spice up" the pond. Source: Pond Boss Mar-Apr 2005, Vol 13(5): 24-25.

More SMB info: "Talking Points of SMB" - by Willis & Cody
http://www.bassresource.com/fish_biology/smallmouth-talking-points.html

Here is the PBoss article that described the results of Bob Lusk's attempt at stocking SMB into his mini-pond.
http://www.bassresource.com/fish_biology/smallmouth-pond-lusk.html

What about spotted bass? From my reading, they are supposed to fight more like SMB, have a mouth size in between LMB and SMB, and compete well with LMB (maybe too well).

Could SPB be an alternative to SMB?

Or maybe the "Guadalupe bass" which is found only in Texas
and has been named the official state fish...but I think
they prefer rivers and streams.

https://tpwd.texas.gov/huntwild/wild/species/gdb/

One thing I find interesting about this thread is, there are lots of posts about SMB disappearing when LMB are present in the same BOW, but no posts on MMB being the outcome. Do MMB occur naturally, vary rarely naturally or only in the lab?

Cody Note: MMB = meanmouth bass (LMBxSMB)

Bill, you might have to come to my place and see if any are in the pond. The majority of my LMB are female, and I have both sex SMB in my pond.......

Flame, I think we can put SMB in our E Texas ponds as I read the information here. Dr. Willis says we can, if we add some as a bonus fish, and we would have to restock some, maybe yearly. That is what I think I was asking. Would the TFS and the craws sustain the SMB. I am a LMB guy and the HSB are just for the bonus, and after reading about Chris and his SMB. We might have to grab George on the way to Texhoma, and bring back a few nice ones to put in the pond.

Hey Tracy and Flame - welcome to the the "crazy club" - "I am Chairman of the Board" - I'll tell you where you an catch some pre spawn SMB if you won't tell any one..

But I got a secret, I grew a 2 lb Camelot Bell LMB in 8 months and Chris raised a 2 lb SMB in FIVE years... LOL



Hey, great time at the PB Conference "Icebreaker" last evening.
Fantastic bunch of folks and more best friends thn I can count on fingers and toes!

Best personal regards to you guys,
George

It's happened, but it's unlikely, simply because the two species prefer different spawning habitats. I have dreamed about a small body of water where both species are sexed and added and the habitat is such that both prefer it. Someday someone will do this and it'll be amazing.

I wonder if part of it is also folks just don't know a MMB when they see one...not sure I would!

Definitely some truth to that. Not sure I would either.

""Would the TFS and the craws sustain the SMB."" Those forages would be good for feeding SMB if the LMB do not keep the forage density too low for adequate feeding by the SMB. Remember LMB are quite prolific and can over populate the resource. If I was add stocking SMB into a pond with existing LMB, I would remove 3-4 LMB prior to every new SMB added. LMB will quickly repopulate. Remember that competition from LMB impacts survival of SMB.

If you are moving SMB into an established habitat I suggest that you select those in the 9"-13" sizes because they will survive transport easier and likely be more adaptable in the completely new habitat.

Bill, I would also make sure the SMB that I stocked were pellet trained SMB.

hay there George, thanks for sharing the secret I also saw something similar. But I was thinking that when my cnb jumpers are a couple of #'s, I might slip in a couple of the smallies for the fun of it
Tracy

Ok Guys, here is a question about stocking SMB in with LMB.
My Jumpers lmb will be going in as fingerlings in June. Environment will be a fairly heavy stocked forage. I hope to see the same growth of my LMB as George 1 had/has, with his 2 lb lmb. By Fall/2015 I hope to see some 14" LMB. If a fishing trip in Oct for SMB and the same size SMB to existing LMB were to somehow be transported back to the pond, lets say 10 smb, I would think they might take hold because the smb would be a young smb and might adjust to the pond. Would they lose wt, would they adjust, and if 10 fish, would 5 be female? Would the smb help to control the over population of the lmb fry the following spawn? What u thinking?
Tracy