Pond Boss Forums INTRO New Forum Member Introduction new from Southern Michigan

Just make sure you bury the bucket stocker deep. They will never catch you!

If Jones says they are not legal I would bet the farm they are not. Jones' business is producing and transporting fish for pond stocking, so if it was legal in Michigan you can bet they would exploit that market. Conversely they would not try and do anything that would jeopardize their business.

I will try and find the information you need in writing in black and white as I have an ol' fisheries college classmate up there that runs a fish farm.

https://www.jonesfish.com/content/hybrid-striped-bass

Thanks Cecil. Any current contact person at the State that I could get first hand, up to date info on from would be great!

I think (not sure) with Jones that they just don't have hauling permits as they say on their web page that GSH, FHM, Rosy Reds, and yellow perch (and others on their web page) are not permitted in Michigan either and clearly they are allowed with other stocking sources.

Don't know if it is illegal or not but the Ohio aquaculture application only allows for HSB to be sold within the Ohio River Basin. Assuming selling outside of the Ohio River Basin would be a violation by the fishery. I know there are numerous federal laws regarding the Great Lakes Basin which includes northern Ohio and all of Michigan, might be why nobody wants to sell HSB up that way.

Hmmm... that is interesting. Most likely what Rex (Rainman) said (and he should know as he hauls fish for a living) that Jones just may not want to deal with ambiguous rules or excessive health testing. Unfortunately Michigan is not the most aquaculture friendly state. It's much better than it used to be as at one time the MDNR pretty much considered the aquaculture Industry as the enemy. Some of them still ride a high horse.

Let me tell you sometime what they recently did to a bobcat hunting guide up there. They also shot themselves in the foot recently IMHO by increasing out of state license fees substantially.I know a lot of Indiana outdoorsman that will be bypassing Michigan this year.

I can say this because I lived and attended high school in Michigan and even got my fisheries degree there.

And don't get me wrong Michigan still has a lot going for it.

Here's a contact page on the DNR website:

http://www.michigan.gov/dnr/0,4570,7-153-10366-121644--,00.html

If you notice on Jones website, on the individual species descriptions, they list EVERY fish as illegal in all states surrounding Ohio, which is definitely not the case. My guess is that with all the states having different species (No YP allowed in Kentucky, no HSB in MI and lake watershed), they want out of state customers to call in orders rather than using the website for ordering.

I was told that if a pond has a permanent water inflow and outflow feature, that the pond owner had to apply for and receive a stocking permit from the state before I could deliver fish. If they didn't, then not only could the pond owner be held accountable, so could I. So in other words the State wanted me to act as a policeman and verify that the pond owner had correct paperwork.

That would take at least one more phone call, and getting a copy of the permit that the pondowner had gotten, AND keeping it on file for "X" number of years.

With the added extra work involved, it's too hard to price fish according to what state they will be delivered to on the website, and it definately drops the bottom line for that purchase.

I suspect you are right regarding hassles for out of State folk trying to bring fish in on a commercial basis or even shipping them in. That is why I think I'd like to talk to the local people myself to see how they feel a fish that already is found here and could hybridize on its own in local waters is not allowed in a pond that has no connection to any other body of water...

Thanks esshup, great point on the diffuser.....sounds like I have some challenges with sealing the clay liner that I havent thought of.

The fish you found from 1996 is classified as a White Bass that hybridized with something. Freaks of nature do occur, but that don't mean there is a viable and reproductive population taking over the planet.

You already have contact info., so be my guest at persuading the State to allow you to stock HSB in your MI pond.

Who knows, you may be the first one, legally.

You do not have to be too concerned that you don't have HSB as predators of YP in the pond. Twenty walleye (WE) in 1/2 acre will eat a lot of small fish. Plan on each WE to eat a minimum of 200 small fish per year possibly more which converts to 4000 small fish per year. I caught a 15" WE one winter with two 3" YP in it. IMO few young of year perch would survive with 20 WE in the pond. Few surviving YP means larger adult YP. The big benefits of HSB as I see it is they eat pellets and would probably consume fewer YP per year when they are supplemented with pellets and HSB are easier to catch and fight harder than WE, but not as good eating.

Can't say it better than Bill!

Back on topic......the pond. Pulled the gray clay from the bottom and hit a couple of springs at about 25'. A fair amount of water was coming in but we decided to plug it with clay also. We got a couple of good layers of clay dispersed around the entire pond but it was very difficult to work with as it was wet and just above freezing.

We ran the sheeps-foot roller over the clay and while it mixed it very well with the soil it was too wet to compact. We came back the next day wondering if we would have to wait until warmer/dryer weather to compact the clay.

We tried one last thing. The contractor used the bucket on the excavator and compacted the gray clay very nicely. It was a tedious process but looks to have done a great job as the clay is smooth from being compacted and you could see any water running down the clay.

We should be finishing up today, the dock is going in, the berms are finished with a nice slope from the waterhsed to the pond basin. About all else that is left to do is let mother nature do her thing with rain and snow. Pic below is before ading clay.

Pic with clay getting compacted with excavator bucket

Pic with clay getting worked in with sheeps foot roller. Very wet and not compacting well.

You can see some of the clay in contrast to the sandy loam that came off the treads of the dozer

another shot of the clay getting compacted

I hope that it seals well for you!

Thanks essup.......I'm already getting some water on the bottom. I'm not sure if its from run-off or spring water seaping up from the very bottom. I will have to keep monitoring it for a few more days.

Hopefully it's from runoff. If it's seeping up, then it's not sealed and you will have a groundwater pond, subject to the levels of groundwater in your area.

Would it matter if it was from a nutural spring?

You will be very lucky in my non-soil science opinion if that becomes a well sealed pond. A ground water, below ground spring seepage pond will often not stay full or near full during dry conditions of Jul-Aug-Sep. Your watershed will add lots of water during runoff producing rains. Hopefully your water level will stay deep enough that your current dock posts remain in water. The good thing about your special type of ground water pond is it is dug deep so if the water level is 3-6 ft below top of the banks you still have a pond with very good depth of 18-19ft.

They do make a vibratory drum compactor similar to compacting asphalt instead of a prong compactor. It might have done a better job than the tack hoe but probably the vibratory drum could not be driven on your steep side slopes.

"You will be very lucky in my non-soil science opinion if that becomes a well sealed pond"

Thanks Bill.......because of the type of clay? Or the way its is compacted?

""because of the type of clay? Or the way its is compacted?"" Both reasons, plus the time of year. IMO if the compacted sides go through a few freeze-thaw cycles before the pond is full this tends to loosen and break apart materials where ever water has infiltrated. Freezing & thawing apparently a powerful separating affect. Look at what is does to our northern highways both asphalt and cement.