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#39785 11/05/02 08:22 PM
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I am new to this web site and already I am HOOKED. It has sooooo much information. But as a brand new pond owner (I just bought 26 acres with a 2 acre pond on it) I need to cut to the chase and get some step by step advice on what to do to have a great pond. The pond I have is several years old (15-20) but in great shape despite no care. It had a pretty thick bloom of algae this year and with our drought, it got a little on the dark and dank side. The pond depth ranges from two feet to 10 feet and is L shaped. I have been removing scrub willow, other plants, and wood debris away from its shore. There is no farming on the land I own or even nearby. It is a spring-fed pond, but in need of care.

I was considering using Aquashade to stifle the weeds from starting next growing season but I read in the other Forums that you don't want this for a fish pond. Is it really a bad thing to do? If not Aquashade, what should I do to have a less weeded pond next spring and summer. It's mostly a mix of sub-surface weeds that eventually mnake it to the top that I want to get rid of. Algae doesn't appear to be a big problem yet from what I can observe. So, step 1, what king of weed prevention program and chemicals should I use to re-hab this pond? Aquashade seems so recommended.

Second, can someone really give me a no-salesman response as to whether a windmill aerator will really help my pond. I have read all the comments about aeration and the fact that even a little is better than none. I have no doubts about that. But, there is no power nearby so I have no other choice but a windmill. I am also in wide open spaces. However, I am seeing no one really saying how well a windmill aeartor has really worked for them and if it will work for my 2 acre pond. Can someone tell me it's worth the investment? Should I go 12' or higher?

Finally, a step-by step- process for me to follow in my new undertaking with weed control and pond re-hab would really be appreciated. HELP!!

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mark my suggestion for the first step is to invest in pond boss books - there are several that are "bibles" to follow that will help you get your pond in shape from all angles - i defer on the windmill question to the pros - basic pond management book, raising trophy bass, etc are excellent guides to pond management along with posting questions on this site. Finally, at least at the onset, I suggest paying to have a good biologist come out and do a survey on your pond to give you a gameplan and show you where you are. Money well spent. Good luck and have fun

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Thanks, Tim. I definately plan on reading up on as much as I can and I have placed Pondboss on my Christmas list as more more refernce source to get my education. And,I don't mean to exclude anyone who wants to respond to me who sells windmills or herbacides by saying no salesman-ytpe responses. I WANT those folks to guide me and convince me on the proper course of actions to take. So, please Mr. Cody and Mr. Duffie, let me know what to do. My other probelem here in Erie, Pa. is that we have NO pond biolgists or other pond-related experts to go to like you have in the south and other great parts of the country. So Tim,I HAVE to rely on what I read and what I get in response to appeals such as this. So, I continue to ask out there, "Can anyone tell me 1) whether a windmill aerator will be worth the investment (as I don't have the "juice" to do otherwise), 2) is Aquashade a good method to go with to stop the weeds (coontail, milfoin, pondweed) from growing next spring and not hurt my fish or fishing, and 3)what are my step by steps to follow to get my pond cleaned up from weeds and any more muck. More replies, PLEASE. Thanks so much. I'm lost. P.S. to Tim: Thank you again for responding.

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Mark, I am in no way a pond expert like many that are posting here but I can tell you from my personal experience. I had weed problems this spring/summer and bought some aqua shade and it seemed to help out quit a bit. According to others I have talk with, the aqua shade has something in it that prevents the light from going though. Worked for me. Didn't have problems with my fish at all or catching them.
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Mark C.,

Addressing the AquaShade issue. The effectiveness of the AquaShade is dependent on the proportions of shallow and deep water. Remember, AquaShade will not do much in water less than 2 feet deep. At least two feet of water column (treated with AquaShade) are required to effectively block out the light spectrums used by plants. Therefore, if the majority of the lake is 4' deep, I wouldn't expect much success. I would anticipate that your average water transparency is moderate(in the range of 36"), the result of nutrients being tied up by the vascular plants rather than phytoplankton.

If by chance your average Secchi depths are less than 12" then there wouldn't be any use in adding AquaShade. I mention this because coontail is capable of growing in quite murky, low light situations. So, it would be possible to have phytoplankton bloom and still support a fair amount of coontail. Also, because coontail does not have roots (it will sometimes attach to bottom with modified leaves/stems) it oftens drifts about the pond. That often means it will eventually reach sunlit areas on its course of drifting, even if AquaShade were applied.

To say that aeration (windmill or any other form for that matter) will solve your plant problems is a far cry. In many situtions, aeration can actually increase the prevalence of rooted plants, by reducing the amount of phytoplankton in the water column. Yes, aeration will act to oxidize the sediments and tie up phosphorous; but...in a 15 year old system, there are many more nutrients available to spur rooted plant growth.

However...aeration WILL likely be very important to the survival of your fish, especially over the winter. With the excessive amounts of vegetation that you are describing, there will be considerable decomposition occurring at the pond bottom over winter. Not too big of a deal provided the lake stays ice free. However a little ice and a couple inches of snow and your fish will be hurting in a few days.

So...the use of aeration for rooted plant control is not going to do much for you. However, using aeration to maintain oxygen levels and prevent a winter kill will be invaluable!!! Using a single windmill will be marginal, however that depends on the exact morphology of the lake. An electric aeration system will do a much better job. I don't know how far away any electricity is, but one can run airline up to 200 feet depending on the number of diffusers used.

Unless your lake has more depth than I'm accounting for, AquaShade will likely have little affect either (especially given the coontail). About your only option for that is a herbicide application. Even the use of white amur (if permitted in your state) will be of little use as they do not prefer coontail or milfoil. I will let another pond meister go into details on the types and quantities of herbicide required.

Best Regards,

Jason Roehrig

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Mark C. One thing to add to Jason's informative advice. He mentions one can run airline upto 200 ft depending on number of diffusers. He is correct, but ... Friction and pressure loss of airflow through tubing is dependant on 1. diameter of tubing, 2. the volume of air (cfm) and 3. how far the air is being pushed. One can push 4 cfm of air through 5/8" dia at 10 psi for about 350 - 400 ft and then you start losing pressure (pressure drop) due to the drag/friction of air moving thru tubing walls. If you up size to 3/4" tubing one can push the same air 600' maybe 800' before noticable pressure loss is evident. NOTE - I may modify this 600 ft dist. later when I get my hands on the required air flow chart. AT that time I will also tell you how far the above mentioned air flow can be pushed thru 1" dia tubing. Stay tuned; back in seveal days. 11 Nov. Still looking; I will be back as soon as I find what I need. BC


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Mark C. Back to your weed issue. Make damn sure you know the correct name of the weed before treatment with chemicals or fish. It makes a big difference sometimes as to how much chemical or how many fish you need. Some chemicals such as Sonar are more sensitive to a certain specie of plant than others. Less chemical to do the same job is of course CHEAPER and more environmenally friendly.

I think PA allows amur, at least Zetts' in Drifting PA talked about using them, to his dissapointment. Expore and research them before resorting to chemicals. I've seen them clean up (eliminate) milfoil at 10-12 fish per acre in two situations. They will also eat coontail but not very well; so more are needed per acre. This complete clean up caused new pond problems. So complete eradication of the weeds is not wise. Once in, the fish are very hard to remove but many brag they can do it until they start the job; not so easy, even with a gun or net.
Helpful Hint - Read all the weed related posts.


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Mark C.,

I'm no pond expert by any stretch but I'll toss this out to give you something else to consider. There have been some past conversations about the benefits of a drawn down when it comes to weed control. Given your location in Erie, Pa., and the cold winter months just over the hill, perhaps this is another avenue you could look into to help with weed control. Like Bill Cody said, check the other "weed control" posts.

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You might want to be careful with drawdown in a snow prone are like yours. The shallower the water in winter the more likey you could have a winterkill.


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I feel you would be hard pressed to find a disadvantage to stocking 10/acre white amur a.k.a. grass carp. One example...They completely cleaned out a 6 acre shallow south GA pond 85% covered with coontail in the next growing season.


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Mark - Greg points out a big disadvantage to stocking 10 grass carp per ac. when he says they completely cleaned out coontail in 6 acres. In my opinion one wants some vegetation in the pond to provide refuge areas which are essential for development of small & medium fish and important competition w/ filamentous algae for nutrients. Aquatic plants (depending on bed size) also provide growing places for millions of zooplankton and aquatic insect larvae which feed small fish. Weeds or aquatic vegetation acts like artificial structure ONLY BETTER. Of course this 'having weeds' philosophy contradicts the pond fertilization philosophy. Pondmeisters have to decide on one style or the other and manage toward that direction. The 'having weeds' philosophy is more commonly practiced & works? better in the Northern states.

Too much aquatic vegetation is usually bad except in wetlands; ideally for a balanced predator pery community the water body should have 20% to 30% coverage. From 35%- 40% it starts getting to much/thick and beyond 40% coverage the small fish have too much cover and the predators have a hard time finding and preying on small fish. Ideal percentage of weed coverage is also dependant on the type of weeds. Some weed types or species are better suited to predator foraging than others.

Anyway - as Greg points out, too many grass carp can create another problem, often just as big as the overabundance of weeds. Once in teh pond they are very hard to remove, instinct makes them want to survive and stay put! In my experience and opinion, when using grass carp start by stocking lower numbers, allow them to work a couple yrs. See what they can do and then if necessary add a few more/ac depending on weed conditions. If stocked appropriately, it takes the fish abt 2 yrs to make a noticable change in the weed community. As the fish get old (6-8yrs) or about every 5-7yrs about 30% to 80% (depending on conditions) of the original stocked number should be restocked to compensate for old fish which do not eat as much vegetation as younger fish. REMEMBER - you want to leave 10% to 30% weed growth intact and thriving to enhance the fishery assuming a good fishery is the main goal..


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Bill... I kinda knew you were going to say someting like that from past posts. 10/acre is a general comment I know. I have never worked on a northern lake. I also agree about 15-25% coverage is good.

Here is where I differ...I find it easier to place artificial or wood cover. They provide substrate for periphyton growth, ambush, etc. Coontail is invasive, and yes if trying a fertilization program it will soak up nutrients before reacking target phytoplankton. IT grwos in thick mats that are too dense for effective bass predation upon bluegill. I TRY TO ELIMINATE ALL WEEEDS IN SMALL LESS THAN 5 ACRE PONDS. Trying to delicately balance between some weeds and too many weeds is difficult. It hampers primary productivity and results in difficult to fish bodies of water.

Maybe I'm wrong but I get 5 calls a week about weed problems. If the lake is small, I say grass carp stocking is best longterm or we can perform a herbicide application for immediate improvement. I do not think telling them to reduce to about 15% coverage over the next two years with low grass carp stocking denisites is the answer they are looking for. Look forward to your comments Bill.


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Greg I was thinking the same thing. I have one question about artificial or wood structure and that is, does proper aeration through a diffuser(s) generate enough dissolved oxygen to make up for the lack of aquatic vegetation? It seems to be a balancing act but since I don't have any real world experience in managing a body of water over an extended period I don't know. In this gentlemans' case since he would only be able to use a windmill he might not have much DO without
some aquatic vegetation. What do you guys think?

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Plants give off oxygen during sunlight hours, but use O2 during dark periods. Photosynthesis during sun, respiration after dark.
So, plants offer a give and take situation. Too much greenery can actually cause an oxygen depletion. I see it quite often, especially during summer months.
Pond management is all about balance, balance, balance.
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I will try this again. While Bob was posting just above, I was about finished w/ a lengthy breeze and then I hit a couple wrong keys & I LOST it. Try again, maybe not so lenghty this time.
Greg, I tend to agree w/ your plan, It's simple esp for pondowners who want to fertilize & do little physical mgmt and just want to fish in "clean water". Coontail is a big problem since it spreads fast and regrows from winter buds. I far as I know, can't manage it (or very tough) for a limited percentage of coverage.
I think Greg & I differ primarily just due to location. In the north (north of WVA, KY, MO, KS) most recreatiional ponds are not fertilized. Too hard or tricky to maintain a bloom & added fertilizer usu just grows rooted weeds or filamentous algae. Our ponds are often in fertile soils which makes them naturally semi-productive to productive. Fertilization can work in northern ponds but it takes knowledge and a N & P test kit or luck. Greg is very right, most people want instant results esp if they have to pay for the advice; no waiting. In my pond I prefer to use "aquascaping" using beneficial plants to grow and crowd undesirable and problematic types. Harvest, thin & manage the desirables and if they get unmanagable add just enough amur to help and improve the situation.

Mark L. & Others. Two pond oxygenation senerios (sp?).
1. Pond dominated with rooted plants or filamentous algae, water will be clear (vis. 4-8ft) then phytoplankton will be at lower densities: most oxygen for the pond is being produced by the rooted plants and/or fila. algae whichever is dominant.
2. Few or no rooted plants, water greenish & cloudy or murky w/ visibilities abt 18" to 3 ft. Phytoplankton densities very high & it dominates the plant community and collecively it is primarily responsible for most of the pond oxygenation.

Oxygenation with bottom aerators/diffusers will not add much oxygen to the overall oxygen budget of the pond. That is not their purpose; they are cheap hi vol. mixers. See the posts under aeration for clarification of this.

If the pond is managed & watched properly you very rarely will have a problem with very low DO. One needs to be knowledgable & AWARE of the repercussions of doing things to the pond that can cause large impacts on the plant or animal communities. Maybe a little harsh here but, neglect and/or ignorance cause a lot of the major DO losses in ponds.

Many pond owners intentionally or unintentionally do things to their pond which puts the pond "on the edge" or brink of a potential problem. Then if a weather event or something else "tips the scales" the pond and its inhabitants are quickly in deep trouble. For example: Let's grow lots of fish and lots of big fish. To get this done we decide to fertilize the pond. We succeed and have this really nice bloom going like gang-busters and water visibility is about 16"-18" fish are growing great & bigun's too. For several years things are great we are teh best pondmeisters on the block THEN 'ol Mother nature' gets ornery and gives us rain and dark cloudy weather for three or four days. We don't check (neglect) our pond and don't know of any reason to (naive) AND on the 4th day we go to the pond and see lots of dead fish and fish swimming at the surface. . WHAT HAPPENED??? A heavy phytoplankton bloom can collapse after several days without adequate sunshine or if it runs out of "steam". Tremendous numbers of tiny dead & dying plants immediately start decomposing/rotting, due to bacterial action and the developing bacteria bloom uses or breathes lots of oxygen dissolved in the water. In actuality the bacteria creating the bloom are thousands & thousands of times MORE numerous & are much, much faster reproducing than the algae were. Thus, they use oxygen much faster than the plants, even if not dying, can produce. Remember the bloom algae are now sick & dying fast. Oxygen is consumed faster than it is being produced and quickly often in hours a DO shortage results - now we have suffocating fish! This often happens late in the night or just before dawn. Several hours of complete darkness magnifies the problem. The pond was "on the edge" - vulnerable to a algae bloom crash.


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Cody- good points, thank you for your knowledge of Northern ponds b/c they are different I know. BTW have the folks that have some trouble getting a good "phytoplankton bloom" tried a water soluble fertilzer. My clients have had much greater success since I started selling it.


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.First of all, I want to thank everyone so far for the great pieces of advice to my request for help. You folks are the best!.

I just took some depth and Secchi readings of my newly acquired pond to get to know it better. So, I am hoping this information may help with any additional advice you can offer

First of all, except for the edges of the pond, it ranges in depth from 4.0 to 8.5 feet deep. Its Sechhi (I think I have that right) is approximately four feet. The only submerged weed of any dominance is coontail. Surface weeds are confined to a few patches of cattail and scrub willow. The coontail is located primatily in a humped-up area of the pond (around 25' X 60'in area, near its center, where the water ranges from 4.0 to 4.5 feet. Otherwise, the coontail is somewhat scattered here and there and not thick. There is very little, if any, noticeable algae.

The pond bottom has a black muck for the most part, except for near the shorelines where it is more of a gravel/mud. The pond is at least 30-35 years old. It is L-shaped and is 415 feet long and 180 feet wide (average)or about 1.71 surface acres.

The pond is situated in the middle of a 12 acre field where no crops are grown nearby. There are also no trees around it so the pond gets a lot of wind when it blows. Horses used to occupy the area about 10 years ago or longer

I have chopped down the cattails for the most part. I am also working on getting rid of as much creeping willow as I can and a few other scrub trees and shrubs along the shorline.

Given these conditions, how do I prepare my pond early next spring, and beyond, to keep the weeds down and perhaps reduce the muck, which I'm sure is from years of weed die-off? If I can avoid herbicides, I'd like to. But, I will follow the consensus of advice I may be fortunate to receive, especially from you more experienced Ponders and weed control veterens. Has anyone bit on this BIO stuff that you throw into a pond to eliminate muck? Any advice of my shoreline maintenance? Will the Aquashade work (I realize it's no good for areas less than two feet deep).

Again, I hope my new and better information can allow you to give me more specific advice. By the way, I think I am getting PondBoss for Christmas from my bride. The Penn State Cooperative Extension has also been giving me some good stuff. But, I'd like to here from you folks who have been there, done that, even if you responded to me earlier. Thanks guys!!


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