Pond Boss Forums GENERAL QUESTIONS Help Need Help in Michigan

Hey! I really like this site,so much information. I need some help finding pond information for Michigan ponds. I have found and read tons of stuff for Texas ponds but wonder how much different it needs to be to manage ponds with these cold winters that we get. I have a small pond of about .5 acres with bass,native bluegill,pike,and recently added crappie(then found out that was BAD). The bass and bluegill have been in there for about 10 years with no management except a few bluegill taken during the winter.
Thank you for any information.

Jawbone... try "MANAGING MICHIGAN PONDS FOR SPORT FISHING", by John D. Schrouder, available thru Michigan State University Extension, East Lansing, Mi. 48824 ($3.50)
Also "EARTH PONDS", The Country Pond Maker's Guide to Building, Maintenance and Restoration,
by Tim Matson, available from The Countryman Press, Woodstock, Vt. 05091 ($17.00)

The Managing Michigan Ponds book has more information than all the rest of the books I have on ponds (more that a dozen). It has chapters on Building Fish Ponds, Ponds as Places for Fish to Live, Kinds of Fish to Use in Ponds, Managing Warmwater Ponds for Fishing, Managing Coldwater Ponds for Fishing, Fish Population Control, Aquatic Plants and Their Control, Controlling Animal Nuisances, Fish Parasites and Diseases and several others. There dozens and dozens of pictures, graphs and diagrams.

Good Luck Jawbone. Where in Michigan are you located?

Dan

Thank you Dan, I am located about 20 miles south of Grand Rapids. Those books sound great, have you found any web sites?

Hey I am from Vicksburg. Just south of K-zoo. I love this site as well. Professional Lake Manangement out of GR has a few good links and resources. Just put it in your search engine and see what happens as I can't remember web address.

In Michigan, Stoney Creek Equipment Co. in Grant, is a good source. It's an equipment distributor and catalog outfit, yes, but they also provide technical support via telephone . . . 1-800-448-3873 . . . Ask for Dave Ouawinga. His mom is sharp on pond issues, too.

Mark McDonald
Editor, Pond Boss

Thanks Mark and Eric this will really help. Its sounding like my pond is really messed up.

jawbone - saw on your Jul 24 post that you have pike in your small pond. When I had one or two larger pike in my 3/4 ac pond I had almost no younger largemouth bass 8-12". When the pike died small bass started to become common occurrance. How is your young bass population doing; many younger ones? BC

jawbone - Dan is right, Managing Michigan Ponds for Sport Fishing is a very good booklet for northern pond management. Also see my quote from the above book about pond fertilizing in northern ponds.

Hey Bill, The small bass population is not so good. I think my pond is out of wack. Please read my other post under stocking new pond, types of fish to choose, "need help starting over". This tells all that is going on with my pond and asks your recomendations. I hope many people respond so that I can get a multitude of oppinions.
I have not yet gotten the book but I plan on it before I start doing to many things to the pond.

Hey Jawbone,

Mark gave you a good reference in Stoney Creek Supplies. They're not far from Grand Rapids. I ordered my aerator through them. One of the things they comment on in their catalog is that they do not recommend planting pike in a pond less than 2 acres. Obviously, they will eat all your young fish. It's not surprising you're not seeing small fish. At any rate, I live north of Howell and also have a half to three quarter acre pond. I've got a little different problem. I believe I've put some bass in my pond that may have been infected with LMBV. I've already lost 25 bass and don't think I have more than 5 left. An unfortunate deal, to be sure. Good luck getting your pond back in order!

Thank you Bill and wingfan and everyone else. I am getting so much information from this site and lots of other resources to call on. With all of this information I should have the best pond in Michigan. Thanks again!

Jawbone, I left you a post under another topic b/4 I saw this one. If and/or when you get to that "Majic Perfect Pond" you just might not want to tell anyone. People ask me all the time about my pond and I kinda indicate that it is just a big 'ole mud hole with lots of little fish. Funny, I don't have any problems with trespassers or poachers...........
Dan

Yeah, sounds like a good idea. I'll tell them that it never filled back up with water and the water is poision.

Ha Ha, that's a good idea too. Or maybe man eating "gators. I know it's tough not to brag and show off your hard work and $$$$ investment but I sure don't want everybody and their brother-in-law chasing after "MY" fish and throwing everything out of wack by overharvest or not removing the proper size fish. Some family and a very few friends are invited, and then they have to swear a blood oath.........
Dan

Dan, got the book " Managing Michigan Ponds for Sport Fishing" this morning. What a great book. I just looked thru it and read some of it. I can't belive what they say about the bluegill. Did you follow there plan? Did you go all bass or both? Let me know. Again thank you for giving me the info to get that book. By the way, the local extension office here in town had it. I just went down and gave them my 3.50 and walked out with it.

jawbone: Saw your post about bgill in Managing MI Ponds (MMP). I will elabortate on their comments regarding bgill as unsatisfactory in MI because of stunting. All fish will stunt when the food becomes limiting or in short supply. A fish will grow as long as it lives as long as food is in excess; when food is in short supply growth stops or slows down. Food becomes limiting usually because of overcrowding, "too many hogs at the trough" as Bob Lusk (aka Pond Boss King)says. MMP's main reason for not highly recommending the bgill is because they "breed profically, overpopulate .. and overgraze the food supply" thus stunting occurs. MMP does say that "intensive management is required to maintain good growth".
Jawbone, this is where you come into the picture; intensive management. It also relates back to MMP not advising fertilization or feeding pellets. Without fertilizing or feeding, food supply quickly becomes in short supply. To keep fish growing they need to have unlimited food so thay can eat whenever hungry. This means either provide plenty of food for bgill or drastically thin their numbers so fewer fish can have adequate food that is produced naturally within the pond system. Most pondowners find it easiest to just feed pellets to produce good growth; it works pretty good BUT it also causes extra plant/algae growth for you to deal with.
Most are willing put up with the weeds in exchange for great fish and fishing.
When Bob L gets back on the board you will find that a prolific forage fish is just what he wants and recommends to grow big bass which are ideal at eating bgills. So bgill are great at producing food for bass & catfish.
Contrary to what MMP hints as 6" as the max size of bgill after 4-6 yrs; if fed or their numbers are kept thinned you can easily grow big bgill in MI. Numerous lakes in MI produce large bgill 9-10". It can also be done in your pond; they just have to have ample food and their numbers controlled either with predation, trapping or fishing. Remove the small and intermediate sizes and allow the largest ones to keep growing.
When stocking bgill, largemouth is your best predator; they have a large mouth and large throat & big appetite to swallow bgill. If you don't have PBoss's Raising Trophy Bass by Bob Lusk get it; it will educate you on things that MMP doesn't provide. B. Cody

Thanks Bill, I have an article on raising trophy bass from Texas. I'm not an expert, but I find some of mmp's ideas hard to believe as I think you and some others do?

jawbone - As far as I know all the stuff in MMP is good sound, basic pond management information esp for northern ponds, BUT, their management or fish raising goals may not be the same goals as yours or someone elses. Thus, different techniques are required to achieve different results. Let me know if you find some info in MMP that is hard to believe and I will elaborate and explain it in more detail on this message board. It will be good education for all who read. B. Cody

Bill C,

It'll probably be next week before I see the MMP bulletin but you did have me a bit confused on the part about pellet feeding leading to increased plant/algae growth. It all made more sense after going back and rereading your post about northern ponds and fertilization. Thanks again Bill.

Russ

Jawbone- I thought you might like that book. All you ever wanted to know and then some...all for $3.50. Can't beat that deal. I bought my place 8 years ago when the pond was 2 years old. I mostly use that book, Raising trophy bass, Pond Boss Magazine and this web site to "manage and control" the existing problems that come up. At times I think the pond is managing me but I usually can get in an hour or two every day for some fishing fun. Keep us posted on your progress with the renovation. There is a lot of satisfaction in doing it yourself when it comes time to reap the rewards.
Dan

Bill Cody, one of the things that I am not sure of is that MMP says to put bass in first and then add forage if needed,"..strongly recomend trying bass alone." (p.31) Everything else says to put gills in first and then bass. Which is it?
I also want to thank all of you for posting and helping me with my pond. It gets confusing at times and i'm not sure what to do, but with your help and with the recomended reading I am getting very excited.

Guys

I also picked up the book from the MSU extension it is a tremendous resource. I also read the thinking about inevitable bluegill stunting. Perhaps out of grandiosity I am choosing to ignore that bit of info and go ahead and attempt to have gills and bass together. I recently placed some hybid striped bass from a nursery in OH which delivered to MI for free that I am excited about. www.jonesfish.com They appear to be growing rapidly and strike the water very aggressively with pellets. Good luck Jawbone on the pond restocking. Laggis is a local (Gobles) fishery that I have had luck with as well.

jawbone, Russ, Eric, Answers & Comments.
Russ - From your post you may have it figured out, but feeding fish food pellets increases the amount of manure they produce. Extra manure fertilizes the water which grows plants including algae. the more manure added to a system the more fertile it becomes. In an enclosed pond with no outflow the nutrients are trapped & the system keeps getting richer each year which causes more plant growth than the year before.

Eric - Hyb stripers do very well in our northern ponds. They always seem to be hungry & they grow fast as long as the have adequate food. I've grown them to 27-28", tremendous fish, however they do have some disadvantages; but not many. Dan Laggis @ Lagins fish farm grows some of the nicest healthiest fish I've seen anywhere. 1st class operation. Jones' are okay but not as clean & careful as Laggis.

jawbone - query - Bass alone, Forage later?. Thanks for the page reference, it saves me time.

They MMP are right, bass can survive alone in ponds without other fishes as competition, BUT one can't raise as many pounds per acre & they don't get very big. When alone, they usu. max out at 11" - 13" when there are abt 50/acre. Their max size is dependant on how many are stocked, and how many are eating what food is produced naturally in the pond. Stock fewer per acre and they will get a little bigger. Now each has more food. To get them bigger (2-4 lbs) they need lots and lots of food/forage fish or pellets. They can't grow much or won't grow at all on a maintance diet; they also require food for reproduction which takes a big percent of the food eaten.

PBoss recommends first stocking the forage, allowing it to spawn and then adding the predator to then eat lots & grow fast. This makes good sense and works very good even in MI.
This method takes patience, but gives great results.

Important: Keep in mind that to grow to one pound, the predator (bass) has to eat ten pounds of live food or equivalent(1.5 to 2 lbs dry high protein 40%+ food). Ten pounds of minnows is a lot of minnows or small fish! Some times you can stock a predator together with a forage fish that will spawn the first year and the predator will grow by eating the new hatchlings of the forage species.
Often fingerlings of bass & bgill are stocked together in the north. Both are usu eating the same thing (bugs) and growth is not optimal esp for the bass. . It works better if bass have lots of small fry or young of the year (YOY) to eat; unlimited amounts. Many pondowners stock FAThead (not flat head) minnows which are prolific and they give the bass a jump start on growth the first year.. After the first year or sooner the bass almost always eat all the breeding adult fatheads so this food source is quickly eliminated in just about every case, exceptions
occur & these are most often in weedy habitats.
Golden shiners also usu. get eliminated quickly by the bass in nonweedy ponds. As MMP points out extensive refuge areas (rooted plants) provide shelter for forage; esp minnows. Weeds are not as important to maintain bgill numbers because of the size thing. A few weeds also favor bass-bluegill combinations. Too many weeds create too many hiding places for bgill and bass cannot find/catch them; then bgill start to overpopulate and stunt.

Bgill work well with bass because they grow to a width that bass cannot easily eat and they survive to spawn next year. But with bgill you have to insure there are adequate numbers and sizes of bass to control bgill numbers. Here again this is where knowledgeable MANAGEMENT is important to produce the type of fish population YOU want to have.

My philosophy is, the more you feed the fish welfare (pellets) the less likely they are going to eat the forage fish, esp. important when using minnows as long term forage..
In regards to feeding the predators pellets, why work to eat, when someone is always going to feed you, all you have to do is show up and fill up? They do eat some forage but they do not "hit" it as hard. Some fish will not stay on pellets and revert back to eating fish. Of course in the case of bass or perch it helps to buy pellet trained fish if you expect them to eat pellets. Dan Laggis @ Laggis Fish Farm, Gobles MI, as noted above with Eric, specializes in pellet trained fish.

Thanks Bill, I still am not sure what combo I am going with but that helps. I am thinking of eather a Georgia Giant Bluegill with bass or bass with just regular gills.

I picked up the book as well. I tremendous resource. Cost me 4 bucks via the internet apparently some revision. I have totally ignored the warnings about the gill bass combo. Hopefully my grandiosity will not spoil the pond. It is challenging to find the right combo of fish to use every resource has a different combo suggested. Currently I have stocked this year 200 hybid gill, 100 LMB and 100 hybrid striper bass and 150 cats. I am feeding them purina fish chow with excellent growth noted. I aerate with a windmill that seems to be working. I think now I just need to sit back a watch mother nature work. Good luck fellas

Hey, I just found a great web site everybody might be interested in. It is just like Managing Michigan Ponds for Sport Fishing. In the acknowledgments it says " Much of the information is based on MMPSF..." It can't be printed so just read it on your cpu.
http://www.uwex.edu/ces/pubs/pdf/G3693.PDF

WOW! What a weekend. I never thought that pumping out that water would be so much work. I got the pond pumped down so that there was about only a foot of water in pool 3 feet wide by 50 feet long. It took about 48 hours of pumping total, we started on Thursday night and stoped Sunday night,with a few shut down times. Had to refuel every 2 1/2 hours so we didn't get much sleep. Discovered one really good spring and other smaller ones that just seemed to be seeping in water.

We were able to remove 8 bass that were all in the 3lb class and 3-4 that were about 8-12 inches. Saw more that were from 2 inch(75-100?) to about 6 inches(10-?).

On Thursday we caught 34 bluegills that were keeper size(7-9") and saw very few after the water was down, maybe 10+?. The small 'gills(less than 3") were everywhere! I would take a guess at 1000, just a guess.

I was able to snag out the only 2 pike that we saw, they were both about 22" long. Had to snag them because the fish didn't want to bite after the water got very low.

Crappie were still in the pond but I think that they were not as fat as when they were put in a year ago. Also caught(snaged) out some small fish that looked like bluegills but had a huge mouth, not rock bass, maybe those green sunfish. Nothing that was stocked in there that looked like that.

Holy cow, you wouldn't belive the crawfish! There were many hundreds of them in the bottom of the pond. When the water got lower they were just everywhere. I thought that the bass would HOG UP on them.

I was upset that we couldn't get more of the fish out and taken to another pond but the sides of the pond out from shore were to slippery and to mucky. I tried to get out with a boat but the sides were to steep after about 10 yards out. Would have at least been able to get a more accurite fish count.

Another thing that surprised me was that there are no rooted weeds in there. Muskgrass grows on the top at the edges but not so much that it causes problems. Some stuff on the bottom of the pond(12ft. deep) looked like weeds but ones that have been dead for a while, brown sort of leafy.

I am going to have to poision the remaning 'gills out with rotenone but can't get it at my local mill. Where can I order it in Michigan? The fish might die on there own 'cause the don't have much water and it is pretty muddy after the rain we got and with the spring running in water.

I think I am going to stock regular 'gills and bass and manage them so I don't have the problems of having to do the hybrid renovation in a few years.

Lots of work to do yet on the dam spillway and clearing trees. I will post my pictures as soon as I get them and figure out how to post them on this site. Not sure how to get them on the web first.

Any questions,comments,suggestions, or input at all are welcome. Thank you to all that have helped so far.

Ta Ta

jawbone - You can not get rotenone unless you have the appropriate pesticide license or know someone who does. They cannot legeally sell it any other way. Fish seem to get panicy & won't bite well once the water starts lowering. They must sense something is wrong. Crayfish must have been hiding where the fish couldn't find them. Otherwise bass would have had them really thinned out. Small bgill like fish were very likely green sunfish they are everywhere esp in water connected to streams or open to friendly visitors. Most people can not tell them from bgill.

How should I kill the fish then?
Thanks for your reply.

Eric,

As luck would have it, I mailed out my $3.50 for the MMP bulletin about two days prior to your post. The other day I got a letter with the standard reply most parents get when their kids are at college.........send more money!! I'm sure it'll be worth the wait.

Jawbone,

In your post about drawing off the pond, there was no mention of turtles. I'm curious, did you have any turtles in the pond?? The other day I was walking the edge of my pond and noticed a snapping turtle (dinner plate size ) submerged about 2 feet from shore. As I stood there thinking up turtle recipes, an 8" bass swam within, what appeared to be, 5-6" of his head! Could I possibly have bass that possess a suicide gene??

Russ

jawbone - Two basic options here, hire someone to buy rotonone for you or hire the job to be done by a licensed applicator, or completely drain the pond dry. Pump out almost all the water and it will not cost much to kill off a puddle.

You may hear about adding chlorine to kill out the pond. A lot of fish hatcheries used to do that to kill their ponds. In fact it was recommended in Fish Hatchery Management by Dept of Interior. DO NOT DO THAT if you're are going to eat the fish.
The Chlorine free radicals in surface waters form trihalomethane complexes which include cholororm a suspected carcinogen. Trihalomethanes are stable in the environment and bioaccumulate which means they build up in fish. These chemicals are mutigens and carcinogens. Stick with rotonone or completely drain the pond down into a small sump area.

Russ, yes there where turtles in the pond. Two snappers, pretty good size, and I saw one painter.

Bill,I did drain it down to allmost a puddle but the springs keep filling it up. I may have to pump again depending on the cost to kill at the current water level as to being drained more.

Anybody know of who to contact in Michigan around Hastings to spray for me or to pay to buy the rotenone?

Once again, thank you all for your help.

Cecil, the crows never stand a chance here Fire Ants beat them to it!

jawbone - For rotenone, try your county game warden for advise or the MSU extension service for names of people w/ the permit for rotenone. You want someone close by so travel time does not make it cost more.

Edited Note: Oh Christ!, jawbone, the MMP booklet says you need a permit from the DNR to control unwanted fish populations. See chapter 14. They also have lists of certified aquatic pesticide applicators. Good Luck.

Jawbone,

How's the pond renovation project going?

Russ

It's going. I have run into some problems that don't let me work on the pond at this time. It is driving me crazy not working on it. I did stop by it the other day and it is filling with water faster than I expected.
I am working on getting my pictures on my web site, but like every thing else it's not working right. As soon as I do get them on I will give the address so everyone can see them.
Got to go, bye.

Jawbone,

Great pictures! Looks like you needed a 50ft seine net in that last photo.

gw

Jawbone: WOW! You've sure done a lot of work. Will the sides slipping in cause any problems such as making the pond shallower? Were you able to remove all the remaining fish b/4 it started refilling? Will it fill up enough b/4 ice up to allow you to start restocking this fall or are you just going to wait until spring?
Great job and great pictures.
Dan

Jawbone,

Another option would be to allow the pond to freeze up this winter if the springs don't bring the water level up very much. This should kill the fish off.

What size is this pond?

Bill Cody --- has anyone ever considered using any of the chemicals used for weed control or parasites but at a high enough level to cause mortality? What about using a lot of salt in the pool which will be diluted when the pond fills up again? You can get 50 lb bags at feed supplies relatively cheap. The species Jawbone is talking about can only tolerate a salinty up to a certain level.

jawbone's Fish Kill: I doubt that salt will kill the fish when springs are seeping into the pond....BUT it may work depending on how much water in in the final puddle. May take lots of salt? Some fish will probably seek refuge in the incoming water that will dilute the affects of salt or any other chemical including rotenone. If I were killing the pond for him I wouldn't guarantee my efforts with those incoming springs. Problems with that one.
Instead of salt maybe hydrated lime (quick lime/calcium hydroxide) pretty toxic in high concentrations; raises the pH. Need to know the alkalinity and water volume to determine amount to apply.

Jawbone,

Thanks for the pictures!! I'm sure you've told us but could you give us the dimensions of your pond.

Russ

Thanks guys, the pond is just about 100 yards long and 35 yards wide with the deepest part being 12 feet, with much of it at 11-12 deep.

The pond is filling up pretty fast, it's over the structures now. Freezing out this winter might not happen.

The fish that were left I think might die. I should say some of the fish are still alive and I see lots of fingerling fish still.

I thank all of you for your interest and help and support in the pond. What a great site!

jawbone - Saw your pond pictures. Since you have a stream running into your pond, it would probably be pretty useless to kill it off. Some trash fish would get back in via the stream.
My guess and experience is that as fast as the pond is refilling all the fish in the low pool will survive. You won't lose many over winter unless you have a very severe winter with lots of extended snow cover (10-14 weeks). Restock in the spring and manage for what you want to achieve. A strong bass population will do a prety good job of keeping the trash fish in control.

Bill Cody, check your private message, thanks.

Jawbone,

I private messaged you about this, but will post it here also. Where did you find the book locally? I live in Caledonia and would like to pick one up too.

Thanks.

You can get the Managing Michigan ponds from any MSU extension office for abt $4.00.

You can get it at the Barry County court house. The building accross from the old court house on the bottom floor. You will see the MSU signs. Sorry for the delay.

JAWBONE I live near woodland MI and have been looking for some property to dig a pond and build a new house. Did you have yours dug and who's a good one to get to dig a pond in this area?

There are a few people that dig ponds around here. The one that I was talking about was dug years ago when I was a boy, don't know who dug it. Just pick someone that will dig it the way you want, some won't go very deep,and make sure you go look at other ponds that they have dug and talk to the pond owners. I know that if I had a new pond dug and someone wanted to see it for a reference of the digger I would be glad to show it off.
I have talked to a few guys that dig ponds and they are pretty smart, but the guys at Pond Boss know twice as much about how ponds should really be handled and taken care of. Good luck!