Pond Boss Forums GENERAL QUESTIONS Help Need Help in Michigan

Hey! I really like this site,so much information. I need some help finding pond information for Michigan ponds. I have found and read tons of stuff for Texas ponds but wonder how much different it needs to be to manage ponds with these cold winters that we get. I have a small pond of about .5 acres with bass,native bluegill,pike,and recently added crappie(then found out that was BAD). The bass and bluegill have been in there for about 10 years with no management except a few bluegill taken during the winter.
Thank you for any information.

Jawbone... try "MANAGING MICHIGAN PONDS FOR SPORT FISHING", by John D. Schrouder, available thru Michigan State University Extension, East Lansing, Mi. 48824 ($3.50)
Also "EARTH PONDS", The Country Pond Maker's Guide to Building, Maintenance and Restoration,
by Tim Matson, available from The Countryman Press, Woodstock, Vt. 05091 ($17.00)

The Managing Michigan Ponds book has more information than all the rest of the books I have on ponds (more that a dozen). It has chapters on Building Fish Ponds, Ponds as Places for Fish to Live, Kinds of Fish to Use in Ponds, Managing Warmwater Ponds for Fishing, Managing Coldwater Ponds for Fishing, Fish Population Control, Aquatic Plants and Their Control, Controlling Animal Nuisances, Fish Parasites and Diseases and several others. There dozens and dozens of pictures, graphs and diagrams.

Good Luck Jawbone. Where in Michigan are you located?

Dan

Thank you Dan, I am located about 20 miles south of Grand Rapids. Those books sound great, have you found any web sites?

Hey I am from Vicksburg. Just south of K-zoo. I love this site as well. Professional Lake Manangement out of GR has a few good links and resources. Just put it in your search engine and see what happens as I can't remember web address.

In Michigan, Stoney Creek Equipment Co. in Grant, is a good source. It's an equipment distributor and catalog outfit, yes, but they also provide technical support via telephone . . . 1-800-448-3873 . . . Ask for Dave Ouawinga. His mom is sharp on pond issues, too.

Mark McDonald
Editor, Pond Boss

Thanks Mark and Eric this will really help. Its sounding like my pond is really messed up.

jawbone - saw on your Jul 24 post that you have pike in your small pond. When I had one or two larger pike in my 3/4 ac pond I had almost no younger largemouth bass 8-12". When the pike died small bass started to become common occurrance. How is your young bass population doing; many younger ones? BC

jawbone - Dan is right, Managing Michigan Ponds for Sport Fishing is a very good booklet for northern pond management. Also see my quote from the above book about pond fertilizing in northern ponds.

Hey Bill, The small bass population is not so good. I think my pond is out of wack. Please read my other post under stocking new pond, types of fish to choose, "need help starting over". This tells all that is going on with my pond and asks your recomendations. I hope many people respond so that I can get a multitude of oppinions.
I have not yet gotten the book but I plan on it before I start doing to many things to the pond.

Hey Jawbone,

Mark gave you a good reference in Stoney Creek Supplies. They're not far from Grand Rapids. I ordered my aerator through them. One of the things they comment on in their catalog is that they do not recommend planting pike in a pond less than 2 acres. Obviously, they will eat all your young fish. It's not surprising you're not seeing small fish. At any rate, I live north of Howell and also have a half to three quarter acre pond. I've got a little different problem. I believe I've put some bass in my pond that may have been infected with LMBV. I've already lost 25 bass and don't think I have more than 5 left. An unfortunate deal, to be sure. Good luck getting your pond back in order!

Thank you Bill and wingfan and everyone else. I am getting so much information from this site and lots of other resources to call on. With all of this information I should have the best pond in Michigan. Thanks again!

Jawbone, I left you a post under another topic b/4 I saw this one. If and/or when you get to that "Majic Perfect Pond" you just might not want to tell anyone. People ask me all the time about my pond and I kinda indicate that it is just a big 'ole mud hole with lots of little fish. Funny, I don't have any problems with trespassers or poachers...........
Dan

Yeah, sounds like a good idea. I'll tell them that it never filled back up with water and the water is poision.

Ha Ha, that's a good idea too. Or maybe man eating "gators. I know it's tough not to brag and show off your hard work and $$$$ investment but I sure don't want everybody and their brother-in-law chasing after "MY" fish and throwing everything out of wack by overharvest or not removing the proper size fish. Some family and a very few friends are invited, and then they have to swear a blood oath.........
Dan

Dan, got the book " Managing Michigan Ponds for Sport Fishing" this morning. What a great book. I just looked thru it and read some of it. I can't belive what they say about the bluegill. Did you follow there plan? Did you go all bass or both? Let me know. Again thank you for giving me the info to get that book. By the way, the local extension office here in town had it. I just went down and gave them my 3.50 and walked out with it.

jawbone: Saw your post about bgill in Managing MI Ponds (MMP). I will elabortate on their comments regarding bgill as unsatisfactory in MI because of stunting. All fish will stunt when the food becomes limiting or in short supply. A fish will grow as long as it lives as long as food is in excess; when food is in short supply growth stops or slows down. Food becomes limiting usually because of overcrowding, "too many hogs at the trough" as Bob Lusk (aka Pond Boss King)says. MMP's main reason for not highly recommending the bgill is because they "breed profically, overpopulate .. and overgraze the food supply" thus stunting occurs. MMP does say that "intensive management is required to maintain good growth".
Jawbone, this is where you come into the picture; intensive management. It also relates back to MMP not advising fertilization or feeding pellets. Without fertilizing or feeding, food supply quickly becomes in short supply. To keep fish growing they need to have unlimited food so thay can eat whenever hungry. This means either provide plenty of food for bgill or drastically thin their numbers so fewer fish can have adequate food that is produced naturally within the pond system. Most pondowners find it easiest to just feed pellets to produce good growth; it works pretty good BUT it also causes extra plant/algae growth for you to deal with.
Most are willing put up with the weeds in exchange for great fish and fishing.
When Bob L gets back on the board you will find that a prolific forage fish is just what he wants and recommends to grow big bass which are ideal at eating bgills. So bgill are great at producing food for bass & catfish.
Contrary to what MMP hints as 6" as the max size of bgill after 4-6 yrs; if fed or their numbers are kept thinned you can easily grow big bgill in MI. Numerous lakes in MI produce large bgill 9-10". It can also be done in your pond; they just have to have ample food and their numbers controlled either with predation, trapping or fishing. Remove the small and intermediate sizes and allow the largest ones to keep growing.
When stocking bgill, largemouth is your best predator; they have a large mouth and large throat & big appetite to swallow bgill. If you don't have PBoss's Raising Trophy Bass by Bob Lusk get it; it will educate you on things that MMP doesn't provide. B. Cody

Thanks Bill, I have an article on raising trophy bass from Texas. I'm not an expert, but I find some of mmp's ideas hard to believe as I think you and some others do?

jawbone - As far as I know all the stuff in MMP is good sound, basic pond management information esp for northern ponds, BUT, their management or fish raising goals may not be the same goals as yours or someone elses. Thus, different techniques are required to achieve different results. Let me know if you find some info in MMP that is hard to believe and I will elaborate and explain it in more detail on this message board. It will be good education for all who read. B. Cody

Bill C,

It'll probably be next week before I see the MMP bulletin but you did have me a bit confused on the part about pellet feeding leading to increased plant/algae growth. It all made more sense after going back and rereading your post about northern ponds and fertilization. Thanks again Bill.

Russ

Jawbone- I thought you might like that book. All you ever wanted to know and then some...all for $3.50. Can't beat that deal. I bought my place 8 years ago when the pond was 2 years old. I mostly use that book, Raising trophy bass, Pond Boss Magazine and this web site to "manage and control" the existing problems that come up. At times I think the pond is managing me but I usually can get in an hour or two every day for some fishing fun. Keep us posted on your progress with the renovation. There is a lot of satisfaction in doing it yourself when it comes time to reap the rewards.
Dan

Bill Cody, one of the things that I am not sure of is that MMP says to put bass in first and then add forage if needed,"..strongly recomend trying bass alone." (p.31) Everything else says to put gills in first and then bass. Which is it?
I also want to thank all of you for posting and helping me with my pond. It gets confusing at times and i'm not sure what to do, but with your help and with the recomended reading I am getting very excited.

Guys

I also picked up the book from the MSU extension it is a tremendous resource. I also read the thinking about inevitable bluegill stunting. Perhaps out of grandiosity I am choosing to ignore that bit of info and go ahead and attempt to have gills and bass together. I recently placed some hybid striped bass from a nursery in OH which delivered to MI for free that I am excited about. www.jonesfish.com They appear to be growing rapidly and strike the water very aggressively with pellets. Good luck Jawbone on the pond restocking. Laggis is a local (Gobles) fishery that I have had luck with as well.

jawbone, Russ, Eric, Answers & Comments.
Russ - From your post you may have it figured out, but feeding fish food pellets increases the amount of manure they produce. Extra manure fertilizes the water which grows plants including algae. the more manure added to a system the more fertile it becomes. In an enclosed pond with no outflow the nutrients are trapped & the system keeps getting richer each year which causes more plant growth than the year before.

Eric - Hyb stripers do very well in our northern ponds. They always seem to be hungry & they grow fast as long as the have adequate food. I've grown them to 27-28", tremendous fish, however they do have some disadvantages; but not many. Dan Laggis @ Lagins fish farm grows some of the nicest healthiest fish I've seen anywhere. 1st class operation. Jones' are okay but not as clean & careful as Laggis.

jawbone - query - Bass alone, Forage later?. Thanks for the page reference, it saves me time.

They MMP are right, bass can survive alone in ponds without other fishes as competition, BUT one can't raise as many pounds per acre & they don't get very big. When alone, they usu. max out at 11" - 13" when there are abt 50/acre. Their max size is dependant on how many are stocked, and how many are eating what food is produced naturally in the pond. Stock fewer per acre and they will get a little bigger. Now each has more food. To get them bigger (2-4 lbs) they need lots and lots of food/forage fish or pellets. They can't grow much or won't grow at all on a maintance diet; they also require food for reproduction which takes a big percent of the food eaten.

PBoss recommends first stocking the forage, allowing it to spawn and then adding the predator to then eat lots & grow fast. This makes good sense and works very good even in MI.
This method takes patience, but gives great results.

Important: Keep in mind that to grow to one pound, the predator (bass) has to eat ten pounds of live food or equivalent(1.5 to 2 lbs dry high protein 40%+ food). Ten pounds of minnows is a lot of minnows or small fish! Some times you can stock a predator together with a forage fish that will spawn the first year and the predator will grow by eating the new hatchlings of the forage species.
Often fingerlings of bass & bgill are stocked together in the north. Both are usu eating the same thing (bugs) and growth is not optimal esp for the bass. . It works better if bass have lots of small fry or young of the year (YOY) to eat; unlimited amounts. Many pondowners stock FAThead (not flat head) minnows which are prolific and they give the bass a jump start on growth the first year.. After the first year or sooner the bass almost always eat all the breeding adult fatheads so this food source is quickly eliminated in just about every case, exceptions
occur & these are most often in weedy habitats.
Golden shiners also usu. get eliminated quickly by the bass in nonweedy ponds. As MMP points out extensive refuge areas (rooted plants) provide shelter for forage; esp minnows. Weeds are not as important to maintain bgill numbers because of the size thing. A few weeds also favor bass-bluegill combinations. Too many weeds create too many hiding places for bgill and bass cannot find/catch them; then bgill start to overpopulate and stunt.

Bgill work well with bass because they grow to a width that bass cannot easily eat and they survive to spawn next year. But with bgill you have to insure there are adequate numbers and sizes of bass to control bgill numbers. Here again this is where knowledgeable MANAGEMENT is important to produce the type of fish population YOU want to have.

My philosophy is, the more you feed the fish welfare (pellets) the less likely they are going to eat the forage fish, esp. important when using minnows as long term forage..
In regards to feeding the predators pellets, why work to eat, when someone is always going to feed you, all you have to do is show up and fill up? They do eat some forage but they do not "hit" it as hard. Some fish will not stay on pellets and revert back to eating fish. Of course in the case of bass or perch it helps to buy pellet trained fish if you expect them to eat pellets. Dan Laggis @ Laggis Fish Farm, Gobles MI, as noted above with Eric, specializes in pellet trained fish.

Thanks Bill, I still am not sure what combo I am going with but that helps. I am thinking of eather a Georgia Giant Bluegill with bass or bass with just regular gills.

I picked up the book as well. I tremendous resource. Cost me 4 bucks via the internet apparently some revision. I have totally ignored the warnings about the gill bass combo. Hopefully my grandiosity will not spoil the pond. It is challenging to find the right combo of fish to use every resource has a different combo suggested. Currently I have stocked this year 200 hybid gill, 100 LMB and 100 hybrid striper bass and 150 cats. I am feeding them purina fish chow with excellent growth noted. I aerate with a windmill that seems to be working. I think now I just need to sit back a watch mother nature work. Good luck fellas