Pond Boss Forums GENERAL QUESTIONS Pond Boss Hunting/Trapping 2014-2015

Yeah, to me, hunting isn't about making corpses out of anything. Some need to be taken out but not to go off somewhere and die.

I'm sure I've mentioned this before, but I was taught there were three reasons to kill something. The three "P"s

Profit
Protection
Provisions

A fourth "P", Pride, was frowned upon. I suppose that's why I'm not a trophy hunter.

We eat the meat and our dog eats the scraps. I hunt because I love it. There are less expensive ways to get provisions. Not my biggest, but he weighed in at just over 200 lbs before field dressing.

Tony, I agree. Now, the killing is based on provisions and protection. I hunt for the freezer first, the wall is a distant 2nd.

Going to Wi.? Since I don't usually bring meat home from there (I'll usually give it to family there) hunting is more of a socializing trip and to visit family than anything else. Don't get me wrong, I still like to spend time in the woods, (even tho it's brutally cold some years), but a bigger part of that trip is the people vs the hunting.

No ill will towards trophy hunters here. It is my belief that as long as you're operating within the law, then it's your decision to make.

As for myself however, I just decided years ago I would not kill something simply because it was the biggest of its kind, then try and tell myself it was for food when I knew the younger, smaller animals were usually better suited for this purpose. But again, I think that is a personal decision.

Hunting for almost all Americans is a hobby, not for food. One could buy more food with less input of time working at McDonald's. The reason hunters take few trophies is because animals must have good avoidance instincts to get that old. It takes more skill to get a good shot at a mature animal. Meat hunters that I know convince themselves that they are on higher ground, but really are not able to fill their tag with an older animal. I have taken plenty of younger animals as I was developing my hunting skills. I had 5 does right under me yesterday and three were mature. I let them pass to keep the younger bucks away from my meat-hunter neighbors. They are not young or new hunters, and you can hear the volley of shots that occurs whenever anything brown runs by. I shot a doe on opening day of bow for the freezer and to keep the buck-doe ratio in line. It ran less than 10 feet. The antlers in my post above are from opening day of gun and he ran less than 35 yards. Well placed shots in mature animals. Hunt as you will, but don't pretend that hunting is for food for most Americans. I will take a couple more does for local families that need the meat, but their time is better spent working than hunting.

RAH, I completely agree that the majority of Americans do not need to hunt strictly for provisions. I can show you a couple families down here that do not fit that demographic, however.

I don't deer hunt, never have. I have been fortunate in that I've never needed to supplement our food supply by taking wild game. Were that situation to change however, I am confident that I could provide for my family's needs with a minimal expenditure of time and effort.

As Tony said as long as you are operating within the law it's your choice... But I get frustrated with the law some times.. Illinois deer herd has suffered the last few years from disease (EHD and Blue tongue) and the unlimited OTC doe tags.. There are people out there shooting God only knows how many deer just because they can... I honestly hope the complete deer is being used, but I know it is not by the deer carcasses I see in the road ditches during and after deer season.. SMH

I have neighbors that have if it's brown it's down mentality. I can't abide by this idealoligy so I called the game warden in to even up the odds a little. This bozo is on 14 acres and has killed 3 bucks that I know of saying I need the meat. Well he lives in Austin and drives 2-1/2 hrs to hunt.... I say save your gas money and buy meat! Or food. There will be reprocussions for turning his butt in but sometimes you just have to stand up for what is right. Some people......!

Pat W

I have hunted and fished all my life growing up in Louisiana and now in Texas. I've never hunted and killed or caught any thing that we didnt eat...unless it was for safety reasons. I didnt eat turkey at Thanksgiving growing up until I was an adult, because we ate baked or smoked goose. I try not to judge, but I don't totally understand people that hunt just for sport. I never have...didn't grow up that way. We were given dominion over all animals and that is a gift. I feel a big responsibility comes with being a good steward in managing that gift.
Charlie

If I hunted to eat I would lose a lot of weight. To me it is more than a sport. I don't really know how to define it. It is what I do and, all things considered, it is darned expensive even though I own the land. I freely admit to being a predator.

OTOH, I had 4 16 year olds hunting on my place last week. That is way too many but that's OK. I went out a couple of times, saw nothing, but don't figure I wasted my time. Now, it's more about getting kids into the woods and away from the video games.

I second the "away from video games" part!

I agree, I could just as easily go to the store and buy beef, but I think there's a small amount of pride in being somewhat self sufficient in being able to fill the freezer.

Amen, brother. Shame this feeling has escaped so many.

I've thought about this thread a lot today, and I'm curious as to how hunting compares to fishing? Like Dave says, hunting is expensive. RAH has implied the same thing. And when I look over all of my fishing gear, there's a considerable sum there. But is it necessary?

I think it may go back to where I stood earlier today. Am I fishing for sport, or food? If it's sport, then it equates to recreation..which to me at least, hints at a certain measure of disposable income. After all, I could catch fish with a cane pole, if food was the objective. I wouldn't be quite as particular as to size, or species if I were hungry, and spending money I didn't have on nice gear would not be a priority when suppertime rolled around.

I know some families around here that look at hunting the same way. Money is tight, and food is expensive. Instead of multiple firearms, it makes a lot more sense financially for them to get a shotgun with an extra slug barrel. Now it's a multi-purpose gun, used for all sorts of game. Just like that cane pole. That's hunting/fishing for meat, in my eyes. It ain't perfect or ideal, but it provides the most bang for my buck.

Hunting for sport on the other hand, may indicate an entirely different set of circumstances. At least in my opinion. Sport fishing is often catch and release, maybe not all of the fish, but usually a fair amount. The thrill of holding that fish, or bringing it alongside the boat, is the goal. Sure, you COULD eat it, but it's not necessary, as long as the fish is uninjured you can simply release it for another day. Deer hunting for sport on the other hand, means the animal is down and not getting back up. Now, someone HAS to eat it...might as well tell myself that was the goal all along.

Let's travel a few years into the future. Sport hunters now carry electronic rifles that stun the deer instantly. No tracking or chasing, it drops right where it stands, provided my shot placement was accurate. Now I can hold it, touch it, get my photo taken with it...and then watch it recover, get up and walk away. I've still needed to do everything I always did before with a ballistic firearm, the only difference is after the shot I won't have antlers on the wall, or blood on my clothes. Perhaps my smart phone will even be capable of scanning the animal in 3D, to have a reproduction made by a capable taxi.

Would the appeal of sport hunting still be there?

I think the most likely response by some would be the need to harvest deer for management purposes. And I would agree. But that response neatly sidesteps the question at hand.

Perhaps you ignore our human instinct to hunt. Yes we need to manage deer populations, and I started hunting to manage crop damage, but I now hunt because I love the sport. The longer I have been hunting, the more selective I have become. If we all hunted for food, there would be no game to hunt.

My goal in buying and building up the place where I will retire is to make it as self-sufficient as possible. Can I buy all my food? sure. But I take enough to last my family a year and that's about all the red meat we eat. It's a couple minute stroll from the house to the blind and I butcher it the careful way I want it done. Yes I enjoy it. Gear costs money.

Put in a pond so I can take some fish for the table. And enjoy doing the care and fishing. Pond costs money. I have loved fishing for Piranha with a hook, steel leader and a hand spool. Fishing can be very simple.

Will put in a significant garden when I move there permanently. Will enjoy that.

Doing almost all the home rebuilding myself. Enjoying most of it. I have bought tools that cost money.. but cheaper than hiring it all done.

Logged, cut and stacked in the barn many cords of wood that will heat the house. Enjoyed much of it, but toting a hunk of wood that weighs as much as I do is not that fun. Love my expensive Stihl.

There is satisfaction in using my hands to build and provide. Whatever I engage in, I want to understand it and do it "well"

Well means different things to each of us. Trophy vs meat. Some like to drop them on the spot. I like a lung/heart shot, let it run a bit and bleed, but I don't lose meat. I concur with the disdain for the 8-shot burst people. I take my shot and put the rifle down.

Tony, I think the answer to your question is, "Be true to yourself in all you do." Many of us will end up in similar places. Some will choose differently. No shock that PB'ers are hunters. We connect with the natural world.

I think what I'm looking for is honest acknowledgement. I grew up in a hunting and fishing family. Just because I don't deer hunt doesn't mean I disdain all hunting. I'm a fair squirrel hunter, used to coon hunt till almost daybreak, can set a woodland snare for rabbits using just a pocketknife, and have trapped coons, rats' and mink along the creekbanks. I know when to gig suckers on the riffles as they make their spring run, and store them for excellent fish patties later in the year.

I can point out and name various plants that many simply step over or on, including those with monetary or supposed medicinal value. I can prepare beechnuts in such a manner that you can consume them without doubling over with cramps an hour later. I have skinned and prepared all manner of wild game, including untold number of deer. I can tell you which hickory trees out of a grove will have the best nutmeats.

I learned how to do all of this during my childhood. Not because we needed to in order to survive, but because the generation before me, the generation that raised me, needed to. And they wanted to ensure that I could, should the need arise. But always, it was impressed upon me the need to respect, and appreciate what was offered in nature.

This is why I am curious as to the motive behind trophy hunting. It really is foreign to me. To kill something just because of its greatness? When I cull fish, I don't toss the biggest male bluegills...I want those genes to remain, and there are plenty of other fish to cull, and/or consume.

Trophy hunting is perfectly legal, and just because I choose not to participate, doesn't give me the right to lecture those who do. I'm just looking for honest acknowledgement on the part of those who practice this form of hunting. As posted earlier, if deer hunting for sport meant no-kill, and no biological trophy for the wall, would it still retain its appeal? Or is it a case of pride in killing the biggest and best?

RAH, you may be correct. Like most of humanity I am certainly doing my best to suppress a myriad of human instincts. Many times not as successfully as I would like.

Tony, I don't hunt for the trophy on the wall. But, if a great animal walks by, I won't pass it up. Up here, there are very few pieces of property that are large enough that a deer will stay on it it's whole life, and passing up a 3.5 year old deer on the hopes that it will grow another 2-3 years and become a trophy just isn't realistic. Someone else will shoot it if it's seen.

There is a lot of illegal hunting going on too. That's an assumption tho. I heard a LOT of single shots fired the last hour to 1/2 hour before total darkness on the Friday evening before the firearms opener. Since we have 48 hrs to check in a deer, and electronic check-in is possible, who's to say if the deer was shot Friday evening or early Saturday morning if it's checked in Sunday evening?

Dang philosophers! Tony, it's about 4:30 in the morning, on my first cup of coffee, and you're making me think.

Although a self admitted predator and competitor, I've never wasted a minute of my life when hunting. And some of those days have been absolutely painful and miserable. Like Scott, I've done it in a lot of far off places that I'm now too old to tackle. Last night, I passed up a free, to me, guided Alaskan bear hunt with my Grandson. Although everybody says that I'm in great shape for my age(71) I know that I'm too old to mess with those mountains. I've been in them too many times to kid myself.

I don't want to get all gooshy about communing with nature. I don't synthesize things by saying that I harvest deer. Heck, I kill them and dead is dead. I've seen a lot more deer, elk, antelope than I've shot. If I shoot it, I eat it but don't hunt for food. Unless there is a problem animal, I don't molest it. I no longer dove hunt because I don't like the taste and don't use wildlife for target practice.

Some people hunt with a camera but, to me, that's about like kissing your sister.

I plant 4 acres in front of the house with wheat, turnips and radishes. This helps the animals get through January and February when natural browse is pretty hard to come by. No hunting is allowed there.

Actually, I haven't killed a deer on my land in 3 or 4 years. I have one buck that comes to corn feeders. He has a beautiful rack, is 4.5 years old, and has a bad left shoulder. More than likely he got his butt whipped when he was younger. I've told the kids not to molest Gimpy.

So, why do I do it? Why will I still do it when they have to push my wheel chair into the woods? Not sure I can answer that one.

I think that I compete. Right now I'm after a specific big buck. He's about 6.5 years old. I know his travel areas but not where he beds. Last weekend I sat in the woods when it was cold, wet and windy. Absolutely a miserable day to sit still very still and see nothing. I expect that the coyotes will take him some say instead of me. But, I may or may not shoot if I see him. I remember another huge buck in my sights about 20 years ago. I lined up on him and started thinking about it being a shame to kill the best of the breed. I passed but might not next time.

Well, there went an hour of sitting and thinking, typing and re typing without being able to answer you or myself.

Taking a trophy deer is a challenge. I can easily take deer, but not a trophy. Would you rather catch a big fish or a small one? If I sit all season and just see lots of animals and take none, that is OK with me. Like any sport or hobby, most strive to improve their skill. With deer hunting, this means seeking trophies. Most deer hunters never even see one. Taking a few over the years is a real challenge. Managing the deer population and having fresh meat is a bonus. We have never had a deer butchered by anyone else unless we were giving the carcass away (mostly to needy families). Having antlers hanging on the porch is a reminder of a successful hunt. Sport hunting has a long tradition, and is the basis of American hunting. When hunting for meat was unregulated, deer disappeared from the wild in many places. Our population has long surpassed the ability of wild animals to fill all of our freezers. I appreciate the privilege to hunt. I have only hunted on my own land, and my wife and I worked hard to buy it and transform it into wildlife habitat (and we are still working on it).

Thanks everyone, for taking time to post such thoughtful responses. It's much appreciated.

Scott, I completely agree in taking what walks down the trail by chance, including trophy animals. To me, that's an entirely different scenario than deliberately killing the biggest animal.

Dave, thanks for sharing your thoughts so early in the morning. A question if I may... you equate hunting with a camera to kissing one's sister...can I assume from that remark that killing the animal is integral to enjoying the sport? I know, tough question. No disrespect intended however.

RAH, I hear you when you talk about having your own land, and working hard to achieve your goals. I'm right there with you, and know how challenging and rewarding the process is. I do have a question or two, very much along the same lines as what I've asked Dave.

Why do I catch a trophy fish, and you take a trophy deer? "Catch", is a benign word, much like "Take". But that's somewhat misleading isn't it? Catching a trophy fish at least allows for the possibility of releasing that fish unharmed, while taking a trophy deer really means killing it....correct? If I were to take your last post and substitute kill, or killing, in place of take, or taking, would that not paint a more accurate picture of the process? So why use "take" in the first place?

So I respectfully ask the same question of you that I put to Dave: Is the actual killing of the animal integral to your enjoyment of a trophy hunt? We can talk about management, improving the herd, and feeding those who are less fortunate, but in the end is all of that just secondary to the need to kill the biggest, best animal, for fulfillment of the trophy hunting experience?

Again, I realize this may be an awkward question, but then again, if it is uncomfortable, why? And what does that say?

Lots of mixed emotions Tony and I've dealt with them before.

Let me start by saying that if I ever walk up to a deer that I have killed and don't have a small, momentary, twinge of regret, I'll quit. Nuff said on that.

Yes, to me, hunting and killing go together. Denying that would be disingenuous. I can say that because of the overwhelming disappointment when I have missed a shot. That means that I worked hard, did everything right up to the conclusion, and failed. It's something like setting the hook and having the line break in the knot.

Ya know whats worse? Not recovering a wounded animal. In over 50 years of hunting, I've lost 3 and I remember each of them. That is going to happen if you hunt long enough. Some animals are so tenacious of life that they can seemingly go for miles with no blood pumping.

On the other hand, I have seen something much worse. In the early 1960's, I went camping at Possum Kingdom State Park. It's about 50 or so miles West of Fort Worth. No hunting was allowed. I saw big herds of starving, emaciated, deer. They had totally over grazed the range. When walking around we found a lot of dead ones. Local residents were trying to feed them but it was too little, too late. I can equate that to an over stocked pond with the resulting DO crash. In both cases, nature provides the equilibrium. But, that's not why I hunt.

Oh crap. Clicked on this thread again to see if anyone has posted any new hunting pictures or stories, but I see this philosophical discussion continues. And I can’t stop reading and thinking. Trying to understand your questions, sprkplug, is as painful as doing math. But even with a difficult math problem, I find it difficult to just ignore. So here goes…

I consider myself a trophy hunter and a meat hunter, depending on the calendar. 1st week of bow season I let everything walk knowing that there is a chance a big buck will make a mistake not realizing hunting season has begun again. I beat myself up with the effort involved to access and hunt remote and often mountainous properties where you have a better chance of seeing a big one. 2nd week and I’m trying as hard as I can to put one or more does into the freezer. The month of November I am again in big buck mode.

Now to try to answer your trophy deer / stun gun question… I think I’d like to at least try it and would probably continue it if that were the only legal way, but I seriously doubt it would be very satisfying. In a way, I think it would be moving away from a real hunt and towards something like a video game.

You see, as much as I try to keep neat and clean, the inevitable blood on the clothes is part of the overall process and therefore is necessary. Time and effort and money spent improving your land, hanging stands, etc. is necessary. The occasional difficult drag is necessary. Bringing it home for the family to see is necessary. The skinning and methodical butchering is necessary. In the last couple days, I’ve put probably 8 or 9 hours into boiling and scraping clean the skull of a nice big buck my 16-year old son killed, and that was all necessary. Finally, reliving the hunt as we prepare and eat the venison or admire a trophy on the wall, is necessary. These are all parts of the process, and while the kill is not the only part, without it many of the other parts would not be there either.

It would not be the same. And I agree, it would be like getting to kiss a pretty girl, only she’s your sister.

Vamaz, I think you are the first to come out and say what everyone reading this thread is probably thinking, including myself. Certainly killing is fundamental to hunting, but now we read that killing the biggest of the big is also fundamental to trophy hunting. Without a physical, tangible object that we can claim as our own, the experience is incomplete.

This apparent disparity between trophy hunting, vs. trophy fishing is fascinating to me. Why are we content to catch the fish of a lifetime, photograph it, (maybe have a replica made), and release it, but the notion of doing the same with a trophy deer (the electronic rifle scenario), is not satisfactory? It seems to me that stunning the animal would still require skill, time, practice,....and would still demonstrate the hunter's mastery over the animal. The difference being the lack of a physical trophy. It can't be food, as there are other, non-trophy deer to be taken to fill that need, so the only thing I can think of is...pride. The fourth "P". The need to say "look what I killed".

And I suppose that's why I will always struggle with the concept of trophy hunting.

Dave, as I read your latest post I was nodding in agreement. I've had my share of squirrels get hung up in treetops, and saw what remained of rabbits in my snares after a canine found them. It's painful, irregardless of the size of the animal. And you're right..when a hunter no longer feels that twinge, he or she has lost something vital. Something human.

vamaz, I know exactly what you are talking about when you describe the 1st week of bow vs. later on in the season. Here in Indiana, our hunting season (for all equipment) starts Oct 1 and usually goes until the first weekend in January. We are allowed only one buck per year unless we are also hunting in an urban zone, then we can take one buck in an urban zone and one out of an urban zone. So, for me, I'll wait until the end of December to shoot a buck, if I shoot one at all. I have a couple of trail cameras running continually from late September until the end of January to see what is in the area, and who makes it thru the hunting seasons. Every year there is usually one or two bucks that are on the "hit" list, either because of their large rack, or because of their small rack. The small ones? They have shown no growth in antler size for at least 2 years.

The big ones? Well, in the past 8-10 years I've only had them close enough to shoot twice. Once I passed on the biggest one because I didn't want to shoot him in the butt and waited for him to turn broadside. He did, but a tree was in the way for a clear shot, so I waited for him to walk past it. He never did, instead he turned and walked directly away, never to be seen again. The other one? It was #2 antler size wise and I knew #1 was around so I passed. The next year I heard a shot on the next property, with a bunch of whooping and hollering. A week later I see #2 laying dead in the woods from 50-60 Yds away. The back end was eaten out by coyotes, and I could not find a bullet entrance/exit in the rest of the carcass. Why they couldn't find the deer is a mystery to me, as it was in plain sight. I have the horns. I’ve never heard of #1 being shot, nor have I seen him again.

I’ll hunt with a variety of equipment, from archery to center fire rifles. I still get a bit shaky when I’m close enough to a deer that I can see their eyelashes, and any little noise on my part will send them running away, even the noise that two pieces of clothing rubbing on one another make. That’s part of the hunt too – being able to outwit a deer in their own home.

But, I also hunt with a rifle that is capable of shooting a critter that’s well over ¾ of a mile away, so I “get” the different perspectives on why people hunt with different equipment. To me, hunting is much more than just going out and shooting an animal, it’s the experience that you get while you are out hunting.