Pond Boss Forums INTRO Questions & Observations CNBG....straight up, or?

Tony, keep asking all you want!

This thread has been good for me, because I've been trying to find traits that are absolutely repeatable for 5-7" CNBG. Every time I find a coloring or marking that's consistently male or female, I'll catch an opposite sexed fish that has the same characteristics, and I have to rethink what I've thought to be an exclusive trait. That trait may be a dominant one, but not an exclusive one, and that's a reflection of my evaluation parameters, and not the fish itself.

To me at least, it's much easier to tell if a smaller CNBG has been hybridized, than determine the sex of the fish with absolute certainty.

Thanks Al. I'm beginning to wonder if there are any absolutes when it comes to sexing young CNBG. My biggest problem is lack of familiarity with the fish. I've never seen a live one, but I hope to change that.

At this point, there seems to be a greater difference between northern BG's and coppers than what I initially thought. At least where gender definition is concerned.

My lack of experience with these southern fish is really showing through.

Oh now this is just mean. ....

Let's tell the guy with OCD tendencies that the answers he seeks are in these threads, then make it impossible for him to open the links.

He'll claw the pixels right off his monitor...it'll be hilarious!!

Dwight knows how to fix this. They use to work well.

Al said :
" I've thought to be an exclusive trait. That trait may be a dominant one, but not an exclusive one, and that's a reflection of my evaluation parameters, and not the fish itself."

Not necessarily - it depends.

Keep in mind BG/CNBG survival strategy ( aka sneekers , cuckholds as per Neff studies). See this.


PB articles

http://www.sdstate.edu/nrm/outreach/pond/upload/Bluegill-Nesting-Nov-Dec-2005.pdf

http://www.sdstate.edu/nrm/outreach/pond/upload/The-Secret-Life-of-Bluegill-Jul-Aug-2005.pdf

Neff --- http://publish.uwo.ca/~bneff/papers/Neff&Clare%20Paternity%20in%20sunfish.pdf

http://publish.uwo.ca/~bneff/papers/Neff&Lister%20Genetic%20life%20history.pdf

http://publish.uwo.ca/~bneff/papers/paternity_and_cannibalism.pdf

http://publish.uwo.ca/~bneff/papers/sperm_investment_patterns.pdf

http://publish.uwo.ca/~bneff/papers/nestling_recognition.pdf

http://publish.uwo.ca/~bneff/papers/genetic_paternity_analysis.pdf

The Neff web list -- http://publish.uwo.ca/~bneff/papers.htm


Cut and paste cant get links to work.

Thank you Eric, the links to the docs are appreciated.

More from Todd - he’s very busy right now in the middle of harvest!

“The dark breast gives this tricky fish away. Maybe young male..
And when I said young maybe I meant immature.. Just not yet a big dog on the playground.. - Interesting post. Keep it up.”

I saw the darker breast, but still considered it to be lighter, and not as large of an area when compared to the other photos of verified CNBG males.

So George's last photo, the one showing the washed out coloration, is an immature male? Never would've figured a fish with those dynamics (size) to be immature? Would the darker breast not indicate maturity? Or is this not reliable?

I'm very curious as to Todd's statement regarding opercular size and placement, indicating male. Would love to learn more about this, as the northern fish I am accustomed to seeing display different attributes here.

Cuckolds and sneakers must surely account for some instances of misidentification, but not all unless this behavior is much more widespread and prevalent than what I've previously thought.

Thanks everyone, for taking time to share info.

Tony, I think what's also throwing you is the muddy water that a number of pictures of fish are coming from. I don't know about you down where you're at, but muddy water up here is very rare in ponds.

Scott, I'm sure that's part of it, but the opercular is what's really puzzling me. Males with such small operculars? I get that on smaller, immature fish, but that fish Mrs. G is holding certainly has a lot of mass for an immature male doesn't it?

Maybe scale tipping and opercular size just don't factor in as heavily on coppers as they do on northern fish?

Here's typical CNBG coloring from my big puddle. He was almost solid black when he was first taken out, and actually lightened after a soak.

This one was 1 pound 9oz's, and if my son has a brain at all, is being held by my future daughter-in-law.

It still amazes me that 2 BOW's can actually be separated by a 15' dam, and the fish are colored so differently. I assume the clear water in the big puddle is caused by the abundance of vegetation.

Hey buddy - I've been waiting for you to post a photo of one of you big monsters!
Thanks - you and Josh are both catching trophys!

Tony, Scott is right on about prevalent muddy water in many of our ponds in our area.

IIRC, I believe a major point that has been over-looked is short length of growing season of northern ponds/vs longer seasons in Texas ponds.
It is not unusual to grow male OTS CNBG to 8-9 inches in a year’s time. These fast growing fish may be large but have immature characteristics, and subsequently difficult to ID sex.

M/F selection at this stage is not important to me because the males soon begin to get broader and thicker and exhibit male characteristics. At this time I cull the females that do not meet my criteria for pure Florida CNBG characteristics.

Mrs G’s pale coloration CNBG was photographed at pond side and not put in live well for later photgraph - that was a one year old fish about 8+ inches long would be my best guess.

Tony, thanks for keeping this thread alive. IMO it is important for folks that are selecting brood stock for their OTS CNBG grow out ponds. Al is doing a good job on selection of OTS CNBG for his brood stock using Overton’s criteria.

Cheers,
George

Ahh...George, I think you've nailed it. Where I've screwed up may be in equating larger size (growth) with maturity. Up here that's usually how it works. Matter-of-fact, it's far more common to see the reverse scenario, whereby a BG is mature, but small in size. (stunted)

My tendency to rely on characteristics familiar to me may be far less effective when applied to a faster growing fish. That makes a lot of sense. Thanks!


Al, that fish is tremendous. No denying those male characteristics!

Thanks Tony. We probably do have faster initial growth down here, but the trade off to me, is the shorter lifespan. That's why properly aging my larger CNBG is so important to me. Is there still potential growth in a fish like I posted, or is he a senior and close to decline? I've got something in mind that may make scale aging identification easier, but I haven't tried it yet. DD1 got me off on another hobby, so I'll blame him for me getting behind on other stuff.

Al, another point that you called to my attention earlier, is that Todd mentioned that his OTS did not get as long as Waldrop's pure Florida CNBG?
Another challenge when age dating?
Was your huge CNBG one of Todd's CNBG or one of Waldrop's?

G/

CNBG can live to 8 years in the south and regular BG longer up north. Al I think you are ok on the age for a few years. In areas where the change of seasons are not pronounced scale aging is much harder and less accurate.

Al, at the PB conference some SDSU students were aging fish. I wonder if they will be back? You can bring in scale samples of ones you want to keep alive, and otoliths of ones that you are unsure of and don't mind them going to the frypan.

George, he was one of Bob Waldrop's fish.

Eric and Scott, thanks for the info. I might just bring some scales to the conference. I would love to just watch the process itself from the SDSU students.