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Here's a photo that was posted on BigBluegill.com last evening, by SoCal member Ledhead. It shows a curious looking Florida strain CNBG. Or does it? Is there something else in the mix here? A RES influence perhaps? I don't have any experience with these warm water bluegills, and simply don't know what to call this. Female CNBG? Hybrid? I know it looks different from my BG x RES hybrids, but that's all I've got. Curious markers on this fish. Is that considered scale tipping, together with a small opercular flap? Almost 11 inches, 1 3/4 pounds.
"Forget pounds and ounces, I'm figuring displacement!"
If we accept that: MBG(+)FGSF(=)HBG(F1) And we surmise that: BG(>)HBG(F1) while GSF(<)HBG(F1) Would it hold true that: HBG(F1)(+)AM500(x)q.d.(=)1.5lbGRWT? PB answer: It depends.
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My thinking is it's not unusual judging by the pictures George has posted. However I'm interested in what George has to say.
If pigs could fly bacon would be harder to come by and there would be a lot of damaged trees.
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I think this fish just has it's Halloween costume on....
Excerpt from Robert Crais' "The Monkey's Raincoat:" "She took another microscopic bite of her sandwich, then pushed it away. Maybe she absorbed nutrients from her surroundings."
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Last edited by sprkplug; 10/31/14 08:48 AM. Reason: added photo
"Forget pounds and ounces, I'm figuring displacement!"
If we accept that: MBG(+)FGSF(=)HBG(F1) And we surmise that: BG(>)HBG(F1) while GSF(<)HBG(F1) Would it hold true that: HBG(F1)(+)AM500(x)q.d.(=)1.5lbGRWT? PB answer: It depends.
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They all look like nice CNBG to me. I see no indication of RES genetics in them.
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They all look like nice CNBG to me. I see no indication of RES genetics in them. I agree, they don't look like what I'm used to seeing in a BG x RES hybrid. The angler fishes these waters a lot, and he's accustomed to seeing these fish....and he's seeing something different in a few specimens. I'm curious as to what it may be, whether it be simple diversity among individuals, or something more interesting. What about the gender markers....what do you see Travis?
"Forget pounds and ounces, I'm figuring displacement!"
If we accept that: MBG(+)FGSF(=)HBG(F1) And we surmise that: BG(>)HBG(F1) while GSF(<)HBG(F1) Would it hold true that: HBG(F1)(+)AM500(x)q.d.(=)1.5lbGRWT? PB answer: It depends.
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Weird, they don't look like BG I have ever caught, very light coloration and the specks made me think of some kind of hybridization, too. Other than the specks though I don't see any other characteristics that suggest hybridization that I can discern at least.
Sex ID is also challenging for me. Opercular tabs are not very pronounced on any fish, which is one of the characteristics I rely on most for ID. My guesses are all male, but I'm hardly certain:
1. Male - based on color and shape, but opercular tab is still abbreviated like a female.
2. This fish looks like a male due to the scale tipping, but Bruce says he's sampled females with scale tipping - so it's not 100% guarantee trait of male.
3. Male - but again opercular tab isn't much to go by - it's also quite small.
4. I'm guessing male, but it's rather light colored and opercular tab is smallish, again.
Many men go fishing all of their lives without knowing that it is not fish they are after. ~ Henry David Thoreau
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What's the name of the lake?
I think there's a hint of RES in them because of the coloring. Do you know what other Lepomis are in that BOW?
As for sex: Per the opecular tab, I'd say all female. Looking at scale tipping I'd say: Male Female Male Female
But, I'm not sure enough about the 2 that might be males to put them in a "male only" BG pond.
Look at fish #3. Can you explain the lure? I see the jighead tied directly to the line, but a large barrel swivel behind the jighead, also with line tied to it.
Last edited by esshup; 10/31/14 11:38 AM.
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I can't be sure on all of the photos, but I THINK most if not all of these fish came from Perris. I know there are RES present, but not sure if any other lepomis are in there also. I think photo #3 shows one of Led's very own belly spinners. His handmade/tied jigs and lures are the stuff of legend!
Last edited by sprkplug; 10/31/14 11:50 AM. Reason: added lure info
"Forget pounds and ounces, I'm figuring displacement!"
If we accept that: MBG(+)FGSF(=)HBG(F1) And we surmise that: BG(>)HBG(F1) while GSF(<)HBG(F1) Would it hold true that: HBG(F1)(+)AM500(x)q.d.(=)1.5lbGRWT? PB answer: It depends.
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What's the name of the lake?
I think there's a hint of RES in them because of the coloring. Do you know what other Lepomis are in that BOW?
As for sex: Per the opecular tab, I'd say all female. Looking at scale tipping I'd say: Male Female Male Female
But, I'm not sure enough about the 2 that might be males to put them in a "male only" BG pond.
Look at fish #3. Can you explain the lure? I see the jighead tied directly to the line, but a large barrel swivel behind the jighead, also with line tied to it. I see scale tipping on your females Scott...I wouldn't stock any of these in my male BG fishery, with exception maybe of #1. They are beautiful fish though - never seen BG quite like that before.
Many men go fishing all of their lives without knowing that it is not fish they are after. ~ Henry David Thoreau
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Tony, I've fished Perris. There are some bruiser LMB AND RES in there too.
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My thinking is it's not unusual judging by the pictures George has posted. However I'm interested in what George has to say. Beautiful fish! This is the only photo that I see a hint of female pure CNBG characteristics:
N.E. Texas 2 acre and 1/4 acre ponds Original george #173 (22 June 2002)
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Okay, so there's a variance of opinions regarding the sex of these fish.
Unlike George however, I have ZERO experience with CNBG. With that in mind, can we look at these photos and even begin to hypothesize as to gender based characteristics?
Particularly, the apparent (to me anyway) discrepancy between scale tipping and size of opercular flap? From an admittedly northern enthusiast's POV, all of these fish appear female based solely on opercular characteristics...I know it is unwise to base a determination on one marker, AND I suppose that some of these might be immature male specimens, although I find that somewhat unlikely. So where does that leave us?
Do coppernose males have smaller opercular flaps than northern strain? Are these immature males? Is scale tipping indicative of males, or just how reliable is it? Is there something else in the mix with at least some of these fish?
"Forget pounds and ounces, I'm figuring displacement!"
If we accept that: MBG(+)FGSF(=)HBG(F1) And we surmise that: BG(>)HBG(F1) while GSF(<)HBG(F1) Would it hold true that: HBG(F1)(+)AM500(x)q.d.(=)1.5lbGRWT? PB answer: It depends.
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Tony, do we know what time of year these fish were caught?
Could any of these be males posing as females during spawning?
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Scott that's an interesting thought. I don't know the time frames involved, although it is my understanding that these are all pretty recent fish.
"Forget pounds and ounces, I'm figuring displacement!"
If we accept that: MBG(+)FGSF(=)HBG(F1) And we surmise that: BG(>)HBG(F1) while GSF(<)HBG(F1) Would it hold true that: HBG(F1)(+)AM500(x)q.d.(=)1.5lbGRWT? PB answer: It depends.
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All of these look like females to me, but sexing CNBG can be tricky, especially if these were caught out of spawning season. Its too bad most folks just take photos of their large male CNBG with the prominent colors and characteristics, and we see very few photos of large CNBG females like these…
It's ALL about the fish!
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I just went through my database of CNBG photos, and I confess, I don't have any good photos of large coppernose females either...
It's ALL about the fish!
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All of these look like females to me, but sexing CNBG can be tricky, especially if these were caught out of spawning season. Its too bad most folks just take photos of their large male CNBG with the prominent colors and characteristics, and we see very few photos of large CNBG females like these… Glad to see Todd chime in on this subject! Al (FireIsHot) and I have been discussing this very subject as a result of follow-up of last week’s fishing trip at Al’s lake. We have a problem comparing my light colored OTS CNBG from my turbid water pond to his dark colored OTS CNBG from his clear water lake. We did a lot of comparisons of our CNBG caught the past week from each of our ponds, as well as previous photos, and came up with M/F ID that we thought correct , until I ran the photos past Todd Overton that is… We were wrong, according to Todd, by overlooking a key point plus the fact that CNBG can change color in a heartbeat. A new criteria from Todd was females vertical stripes are usually more broken and indistinct that males. He also examined other criteria. My only comment is that I have NEVER seen a mature male 9-11 inch CNBG with a small ear flap or missing prominate copper bar on it’s nose. Thanks Todd, I thought only large OTC CNBG merited photos… George
Last edited by george1; 10/31/14 03:27 PM.
N.E. Texas 2 acre and 1/4 acre ponds Original george #173 (22 June 2002)
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Black scale tipping is being thrown out the window by CNBG experts. This is good for the forum vault of knowledge...
Many men go fishing all of their lives without knowing that it is not fish they are after. ~ Henry David Thoreau
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We have a problem comparing my light colored OTS CNBG from my turbid water pond to his dark colored OTS CNBG from his clear water lake. Put your CNBG in a black bucket with clear water for few minutes, they will darken right up.
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We have a problem comparing my light colored OTS CNBG from my turbid water pond to his dark colored OTS CNBG from his clear water lake. Put your CNBG in a black bucket with clear water for few minutes, they will darken right up. Yep, that's what I do to bring out pure CNBG characteristics for positive ID, but use dark live well ...thanks.. Interesting - presently using clear tap water instead of pond water in live well. Add few drops of aquarium dechlorinator and spray water from hose to add O2 - works good, Add pure O2 when necessary… G/
Last edited by george1; 10/31/14 05:36 PM.
N.E. Texas 2 acre and 1/4 acre ponds Original george #173 (22 June 2002)
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I have seen the RES in my aquarium go from dark to light colored instantly. Most of the time they get along but last winter I had two get into "scuff" over who was the more dominant fish, both were very dark colored during the pissing match, neither one would back down. After a few minutes I went over and tapped on the glass to break it up, one of them moved off and instantly changed from very dark to light.
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That's really interesting! At one time I had a 7 lb SMB in a large aquarium in a tackle shop at Lake Texoma. We could drop a few threadfin shad and that smallie would light up like a christmas tree...WOW!
N.E. Texas 2 acre and 1/4 acre ponds Original george #173 (22 June 2002)
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Psssttttttttttttt............ George. I think I know why you can't bring out the CNBG genetic traits on the fish in the cooler. Those look like LMB to me from here....
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Psssttttttttttttt............ George. I think I know why you can't bring out the CNBG genetic traits on the fish in the cooler. Those look like LMB to me from here.... Now Scott - be nice - can't you tell dinner from CNBG?
N.E. Texas 2 acre and 1/4 acre ponds Original george #173 (22 June 2002)
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