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#389096 10/06/14 10:07 PM
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Does anyone have experience with RESxGSF hybrids?

I assume these two could hybridize?

Where RES tend to be harder to catch, I would think the aggressiveness of the GSF might be a good attribute. Also the RES can get somewhat larger than BG, so this would also be a good attribute.

I'm assuming the GSF female x male BG is a commercially easy cross to make, therefore making it good for fish farms to produce. The RESxGSF cross might not be so easy.

Any insights? Any interest?

Last edited by snrub; 10/06/14 11:11 PM.

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Decided to do some searches on the subject. For those interested, here is what I found.

RES/GSF hybrids in farm ponds using parental stocking

Edit: The above link does not work. If you will do a google search for the title "Potentials of Redear Sunfish X Green Sunfish in farm ponds using parentals for stocking" and you will find the PDF download link.


Will add more as edits as I find them.

Last edited by snrub; 08/17/15 08:56 PM.

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snrub #389099 10/06/14 11:42 PM
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I have GRES in my pond - stocked them accidentally in my management youth many moons ago - thought they were pure RES. Scott and I sampled one in fyke net this Spring at 10.5 or 11". Not a pretty fish, but was impressive otherwise.

Lepomis hybrids other than GBG or BGG aren't covered much but many would probably like to learn more about hybrid characteristics and their role in a fishery. I've been very interested in BRES/RBG hybrids but still don't know much but speculate plenty. All the BRES hybrids in my ponds are skinny - not very successful fish and definitely haven't been pellet trained. Not saying they can't be, just that mine apparently were not.


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Interesting but badly dated article/experiment. Only 5 pairs per acre.

TJ, interesting that the hybrids/mutts followed the RES characteristic of ignoring pellets.

Last edited by Dave Davidson1; 10/07/14 04:43 AM.

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snrub #389103 10/07/14 06:18 AM
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I've noticed that when I target RES I will usually catch several RES/BG hybrids. (fishing very near bottom). However, I see the hybrids taking pellets off the surface with the BG, also. Very striking fish, appearance wise, and outstanding fighters on light tackle.


"Forget pounds and ounces, I'm figuring displacement!"

If we accept that: MBG(+)FGSF(=)HBG(F1)
And we surmise that: BG(>)HBG(F1) while GSF(<)HBG(F1)
Would it hold true that: HBG(F1)(+)AM500(x)q.d.(=)1.5lbGRWT?
PB answer: It depends.
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Can any of the members post more pictures of fish that they think are hybrids of redear X green sunfish or RES X BG ?


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snrub #389115 10/07/14 10:07 AM
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BG/RES hybrids.









BG/RES hybrid on top. Male RES on bottom:


"Forget pounds and ounces, I'm figuring displacement!"

If we accept that: MBG(+)FGSF(=)HBG(F1)
And we surmise that: BG(>)HBG(F1) while GSF(<)HBG(F1)
Would it hold true that: HBG(F1)(+)AM500(x)q.d.(=)1.5lbGRWT?
PB answer: It depends.
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More BG/RES..





Notice this fish took a topwater offering, more indicative of a BG than a RES.




"Forget pounds and ounces, I'm figuring displacement!"

If we accept that: MBG(+)FGSF(=)HBG(F1)
And we surmise that: BG(>)HBG(F1) while GSF(<)HBG(F1)
Would it hold true that: HBG(F1)(+)AM500(x)q.d.(=)1.5lbGRWT?
PB answer: It depends.
snrub #389125 10/07/14 12:59 PM
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I know BRES will/can take pellets, but mine were sadly not trained...just my personal experience is all. Looks like yours are making a good living, Tony.


Many men go fishing all of their lives without knowing that it is not fish they are after. ~ Henry David Thoreau

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Thanks for the great pictures. I will link this thread into the HBG Archives. The RES X BG hybrid may not be as aggressive as a BG X GSF, thus the RESxBG hybrid may not compete well with regular HBG.


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Originally Posted By: Dave Davidson1
Interesting but badly dated article/experiment. Only 5 pairs per acre.



I found it interesting that the pond with the fewest number of pairs had the greatest reproduction. Hard to read anything into that with such a small sample, but still interesting that so few fish, absent other predators, can reproduce so much. The thought occurred to me that fewer pairs could have actually reduced the predation on the fry compared to more pairs in the pond.

I have my mini forage pond with only RES and FHM in it. It would be interesting if I put one or two female GSF in it next spring during spawn when I could for sure identify the female GSF. I certainly have a supply of them available.

I thought with the RES being such a nice fish but relatively hard to catch, adding the aggressiveness of the GSF might make a good combination. Might be easier to catch and take to pellet feed well.

On the other hand, the RES having the reputation for meanness RES unknown facts , and the aggressiveness eek of the GSF, a person might need to wear protective gear to fish for them. The old TV commercial "It's not nice to fool mother nature!" comes to mind.


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snrub #398196 01/20/15 08:45 AM
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Just ran across this old 2007 thread on the subject of GSF/RES hybrids.

Really good thread.

GSF/Warmouth thread with RES info page 5

2015 thread about GRES starting page 4 (some pictures on page 3)
GRES

Last edited by snrub; 01/20/15 02:04 PM.

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Study of BG, BGxRES, BGxGSF and BGxWM hybrids

Missouri study of hybrid lepomis PDF download


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snrub #399447 01/31/15 09:21 AM
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Hybrid sunfish production paper

SRAC hybrid sunfish


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snrub #399454 01/31/15 10:17 AM
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Another study of hybrids including back crosses.

Includes GSFmale x RES fm as well as the opposite cross.
1979
Use of hybrids in ponds and impoundments

It appears from this study at least, that RES female x GSF male is the preferred cross from a growth standpoint. The start of this thread was a study of GSF female x RES male.

Contains info on back crossing also.

Last edited by snrub; 01/31/15 10:19 AM.

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Originally Posted By: snrub


It appears from this study at least, that RES female x GSF male is the preferred cross from a growth standpoint. The start of this thread was a study of GSF female x RES male.

Contains info on back crossing also.


But according to this study the GSF male x RES female did not cross successfully in a pond environment setting, where the RES male x GSF female did.

So it looks like I'm back to stocking the proposed pond with RES then adding a few GSF females to get the GRES cross.

Hybridization of fishes in North America


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snrub #399475 01/31/15 01:27 PM
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Hybridization between three species of Sunfish (BG, RES, GSF)

An oldie, but a lot of interesting information. Looks like RES male x GSF female produces 70-30 male to female and F1 x F1 also high reproduction. This is the cross that works in a pond environment. The opposite cross produced mostly males, but required being done in a laboratory. The resulting F1 x F1 subsequent cross did not work in pond or lab.

So it appears if a person wants pond raised RESxGSF it can be successful and will result in a 70-30 m/f ratio of F1 that will also reproduce. If a person did not want sustainable reproduction the GSFxRES would be the preferred cross but would be required to be obtained from a hatchery where the cross is done in the laboratory. At least that is what I got from the paper if I read it right.

Last edited by snrub; 01/31/15 01:46 PM.

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snrub #399520 01/31/15 10:14 PM
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I remember reading through all of those hybrid studies. I learned a lot, but in the end I had more questions than answers.


One more thing...if you decide to pursue hybrid lepomids in some form or another, you will need a nay-sayer. Yin to your yang, night to your day. All proponents of hybrid lepomids have a nay-sayer, it's just the way the universe works. If you're lucky, one will show up out of the blue of their own accord, and begin raining on your parade straightaway. If you want a really good one however, you may have to resort to some type of material compensation by way of payment for services rendered.

If this is your misfortune, I suggest that your opening offer consist of a vintage Pinot Noir. Be aware however, that nay-sayers often take great delight in obscure details, such as insisting that the grapes were crushed under the delicate feet of 19 year old virgins born during the month of May, or that the juice was filtered through cloth cut from the very same bolt of material as that which produced the Shroud of Turin.

A good nay-sayer does not come cheap.



"Forget pounds and ounces, I'm figuring displacement!"

If we accept that: MBG(+)FGSF(=)HBG(F1)
And we surmise that: BG(>)HBG(F1) while GSF(<)HBG(F1)
Would it hold true that: HBG(F1)(+)AM500(x)q.d.(=)1.5lbGRWT?
PB answer: It depends.
sprkplug #399539 02/01/15 08:22 AM
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I'll keep that in mind sprkplug. grin

But as far as a good Pinot Noir, my idea of a good wine is Welches grape juice spiked with 180 proof grain alcohol. That is my level of sophistication when it comes to wine.

I've thought about the naysayers a little. Even thought about the goals for this new pond I am planning. For the naysayers to consider the situation properly it is only fair that they have the perspective of some goals.

So here they are. Goals for snrub's proposed 3/4 acre pond that hopefully will come about this March or April, depending on the weather. Mostly in order of inportance.

1. Have an excuse to pull the dozer and scraper out of the shed and dig a big hole in the ground while wasting Diesel.

2. Expend some excessive time on my hands.

3. Waste a decent amount of money (always a top priority when it comes to a hobby).

4. Raise some fish of my own doing, instead of buying them. Put them in the pond and see what happens.

5. Goal is to have FHM (just gotta love the little buggers), RES and GRES by introducing 4-6 native GSF females out of my old pond.

5.5 Maybe accidentally learn something along the way while having fun doing it.

6. Maybe eventually actually catch some of them by hook and line.

7. In my case, the journey is the destination.

That is a start anyway. Goals likely to change as time goes by.

About the only thing I will be willing to offer my nay-sayers is maybe some day having a Pond Boss get together where they can have a chance to catch some of my future 2# GRES. grin And maybe something cool to drink.


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Just read through this entire post with great interest...I think I have a pond with RES X GSF hybrids...I'll take pics and post but I've caught several of them that have the gape and coloring of a GSF but clearly have a red opercular tab - just like RES.

This pond has had both RES and GSF for many years.

Pics to follow.


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Originally Posted By: Bill Cody
Thanks for the great pictures. I will link this thread into the HBG Archives. The RES X BG hybrid may not be as aggressive as a BG X GSF, thus the RESxBG hybrid may not compete well with regular HBG.


Yes! Thank you very much for all the great pictures sprkplug. I'm hoping to get some natural crosses from my sediment pond experiment.


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From the Childers study

Sexually mature F1 hybrids were collected from each population and sexed. Of the 10 kinds of viable F1 hybrids, seven were predominately males (RB, BR, and BG were 97 percent males; WG were 84 percent males; and RG, GB, and BW were approximately 70 percent males), two were approximately 50 percent males (GR and RW), and one was predominately female (GW was 16 percent males). Ricker (1948) determined the sex of 428 BR F1 hybrids in Indiana and found them to be 97.7 percent males.
Sex determination in sunfishes is very poorly understood. Bluegills, green sunfish, and their F1 hybrids apparently have 24 pairs of chromosomes, and the sex chromosomes are indistinguishable from the autosomes (Bright 1937). Bright also reported that the chromosomes are so similar in shape and size that he was unable to detect specific differences. Roberts (1964) found that red-ear, bluegill, and warmouth sunfishes each have 24 pairs of chromosomes; green sunfish from North Carolina had 24 pairs; but green sunfish from West Virginia had only 23 pairs.
The unbalanced phenotypic tertiary sex ratios of the F1 hybrid sunfish could result from unbalanced primary genetic sex ratios, specific differences in the strength of sex-determining factors, an overriding of the genetic sex by environmental factors, or differential mortality of the sexes.
Since the WG F1 hybrids were 84 percent males and the reciprocal cross hybrids were 16 percent males, it is possible that the strength of sex-determining factors of warmouths are 5.25 times more powerful than those of green sunfish. Specific differences in the strength of sex-determining factors cannot alone explain the sex ratios of the remaining eight kinds of viable hybrids, since none of these were predominately females.
RB and BG F1 hybrids were both 97 percent males. If differential mortality were the cause of these unbalanced sex ratios, much of the mortality would have had to occur after the swim-up fry stages, since in the stripping experiments total mortality between fertilization and the swim-up fry stages was only 14 percent for the RB and 27 percent for the BG F1 hybrids.
It is not known which sex is the heterogametic condition for the sex chromosomes of the four experimental species; however, Haldane (1922) formulated a rule which furnishes a clue: “When in the F1 offspring of a cross between two animal species or races, one sex is absent, rare, or sterile, that sex is always the heterozygous sex.” Using Haldane's rule, Krumholz (1950), in a study concerning BR F1 hybrids, pointed out that the males of both bluegills and red-ear sunfish are probably homozygametic for sex and the females heterozygametic. The application of Haldane's rule to all possible F1 hybrids produced from red-ear sunfish, bluegills, and green sunfish indicates that the female is the heterozygametic sex in these three species. Hybridization of male warmouths with females of the three Lepomis species resulted in partial or complete lethals, suggesting that in the warmouth the male is the heterogametic sex.
4.2 Reproductive success of hybrids
The reproductive success of each of the 10 kinds of viable F1 hybrids was investigated in one or more ponds. The occurrence and abundance of F2 hybrids were determined by seining, trapping, shocking, poisoning or draining the ponds after the F1 hybrids were one or more years of age. RB, BR, and BG failed to produce abundant F2 generations when in ponds which contained no other species of fishes. In contrast to these results, BR F1 hybrids produced abundant F2 generations in two ponds in Indiana (Ricker 1948). The other seven kinds of F1 hybrids produced abundant F2 populations when stocked in ponds containing no other fishes. Three of the seven kinds of F1 hybrids which produced large F2 populations when stocked in ponds containing no other fishes were also stocked in ponds with largemouth bass. RG F1 hybrids and GB F1 hybrids, when stocked with largemouth bass, produced only a few F2 hybrids. No F2 hybrids were found in the pond stocked with BW F1 hybrids and largemouth bass. WG F2 hybrids and GW F2 hybrids were stocked in ponds containing no other fishes. Both of these F2 hybrids produced large F3 populations.
Backcrosses, outcrosses, a four-species cross, and a three-species cross involving F1 hybrids are listed in Table III. The BW × B backcross was made by stocking adult male BW F1 hybrids and adult female bluegills in a pond which contained no other fishes. The other 12 crosses listed in Table III were made by stripping gametes from ripe adults and rearing the young to the free-swimming fry stage in the laboratory.
R × RW, W × RW, B × RW, G × RW, R × GB, and RB × W young were killed after they developed into free-swimming fry because of the lack of ponds in which they could be stocked. All six kinds of fry appeared to be normal and probably would have developed into adults. Free-swimming fry of the remaining six crosses in the laboratory were stocked in ponds and did develop into adult fishes. BW × B, G × GW, and B × RG populations produced large numbers of young.
Table III
Successful backcrosses, outcrosses, four-way cross, and another cross involving F1 hybrid sunfishes.1
Backcross
&#9794; × &#9792; Outcrosses
&#9794; × &#9792; Four-Species Cross
&#9794; × &#9792; Three-Species Cross
&#9794; × &#9792;
R × RW R × GB RB × GW BW × GW
G × GW R × BW
W × RW R × GW
BW × B B × RG
R × RW
G × RW
RW × W
1 R = red-ear sunfish, B = bluegill, G = green sunfish, W = warmouth.
Hubbs & Hubbs (1933) reported that in Michigen F1 hybrids of bluegills, green sunfish, longear sunfish, pumpkinseeds, and orangespotted sunfish were unable to reproduce because males were sterile and ova stripped from the few adult females used in the experiments appeared distinctly abnormal. This study, often cited in the literature, has resulted in a rather widespread belief that all male hybrid sunfish are sterile. Results of my experiments conclusively establish that a number of different kinds of hybrid sunfishes produced in Illinois are not sterile, are fully capable of producing abundant F2 and F3 generations, and can be successfully backcrossed to parent species and even outcrossed to nonparental species.
















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Thanks for posting that ewest. Have read it a while back but following all the crosses makes my head spin. Need a flow chart to keep track of them all.

I'm only a novice at this, and it is probably only in my minds eye that this exists, but it seems to me the BxRG (Edit: Bluegill male X {RES male x GSF female}female cross if I understand the paper right) three way cross SHOULD make an excellent hybrid sunfish.

Considering though that hybrid sunfish for the most part are thought of distastefully by the majority of fish enthusiasts, and for fish farms raising them for sale a hybrid is a hybrid is a hybrid that only needs to live a long time on a fish route truck, and that few would be willing to pay a commercial fish farm for creating a "premium" hybrid sunfish, the likelihood of commercial stocking BxRG ever being available to stock a pond is nil.

So if a person wants some, he is going to need to raise them himself. And there likely will never be any research type evidence proving of any superiority or inferiority.

I would still like some.

Last edited by snrub; 08/18/15 01:30 PM.

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Article I found on hybridization and sunfish breeding habits.

Some bream are bad eggs.

Pictures spread throughout my Forage pond thread of RESxGSF hybrids starting about with this post. I wanted some GRES hybrids but had no idea I would get them out of my forage pond because of the GSF contamination. Forage pond thread with a number of RESxGSF hybrids in various different posts

Last edited by snrub; 04/29/17 11:52 PM.

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One I believe to be a RESxGSF hybrid caught off the dock today at the main pond. Almost 10" length.

The water is turbid from excessive runoff and 9" waves so the green GSF bars on the cheeks are washed out but they are faintly there. Notice the short pectoral fin of a GSF but the partial bright orange opercular tab of a RES but whitish continuation of the border of a GSF around the rest of the tab where orange or red would be on a RES.

Nasty day with 52 degrees and 20+ mph gusty winds. Caught several hybrids by bouncing 1/64 oz jig tipped with chartreuse Gulp Alive waxies just off the bottom right up next to the posts holding the dock up on the lee side.

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Last edited by snrub; 04/30/17 04:56 PM.

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