Pond Boss Forums MANAGING AN EXISTING POND Evaluating and adjusting fish populations RESxGSF hybrid

Does anyone have experience with RESxGSF hybrids?

I assume these two could hybridize?

Where RES tend to be harder to catch, I would think the aggressiveness of the GSF might be a good attribute. Also the RES can get somewhat larger than BG, so this would also be a good attribute.

I'm assuming the GSF female x male BG is a commercially easy cross to make, therefore making it good for fish farms to produce. The RESxGSF cross might not be so easy.

Any insights? Any interest?

Decided to do some searches on the subject. For those interested, here is what I found.

RES/GSF hybrids in farm ponds using parental stocking

Edit: The above link does not work. If you will do a google search for the title "Potentials of Redear Sunfish X Green Sunfish in farm ponds using parentals for stocking" and you will find the PDF download link.


Will add more as edits as I find them.

I have GRES in my pond - stocked them accidentally in my management youth many moons ago - thought they were pure RES. Scott and I sampled one in fyke net this Spring at 10.5 or 11". Not a pretty fish, but was impressive otherwise.

Lepomis hybrids other than GBG or BGG aren't covered much but many would probably like to learn more about hybrid characteristics and their role in a fishery. I've been very interested in BRES/RBG hybrids but still don't know much but speculate plenty. All the BRES hybrids in my ponds are skinny - not very successful fish and definitely haven't been pellet trained. Not saying they can't be, just that mine apparently were not.

Interesting but badly dated article/experiment. Only 5 pairs per acre.

TJ, interesting that the hybrids/mutts followed the RES characteristic of ignoring pellets.

I've noticed that when I target RES I will usually catch several RES/BG hybrids. (fishing very near bottom). However, I see the hybrids taking pellets off the surface with the BG, also. Very striking fish, appearance wise, and outstanding fighters on light tackle.

Can any of the members post more pictures of fish that they think are hybrids of redear X green sunfish or RES X BG ?

BG/RES hybrids.









BG/RES hybrid on top. Male RES on bottom:

More BG/RES..





Notice this fish took a topwater offering, more indicative of a BG than a RES.

I know BRES will/can take pellets, but mine were sadly not trained...just my personal experience is all. Looks like yours are making a good living, Tony.

Thanks for the great pictures. I will link this thread into the HBG Archives. The RES X BG hybrid may not be as aggressive as a BG X GSF, thus the RESxBG hybrid may not compete well with regular HBG.

I found it interesting that the pond with the fewest number of pairs had the greatest reproduction. Hard to read anything into that with such a small sample, but still interesting that so few fish, absent other predators, can reproduce so much. The thought occurred to me that fewer pairs could have actually reduced the predation on the fry compared to more pairs in the pond.

I have my mini forage pond with only RES and FHM in it. It would be interesting if I put one or two female GSF in it next spring during spawn when I could for sure identify the female GSF. I certainly have a supply of them available.

I thought with the RES being such a nice fish but relatively hard to catch, adding the aggressiveness of the GSF might make a good combination. Might be easier to catch and take to pellet feed well.

On the other hand, the RES having the reputation for meanness RES unknown facts , and the aggressiveness of the GSF, a person might need to wear protective gear to fish for them. The old TV commercial "It's not nice to fool mother nature!" comes to mind.

Just ran across this old 2007 thread on the subject of GSF/RES hybrids.

Really good thread.

GSF/Warmouth thread with RES info page 5

2015 thread about GRES starting page 4 (some pictures on page 3)
GRES

Study of BG, BGxRES, BGxGSF and BGxWM hybrids

Missouri study of hybrid lepomis PDF download

Hybrid sunfish production paper

SRAC hybrid sunfish

Another study of hybrids including back crosses.

Includes GSFmale x RES fm as well as the opposite cross.
1979
Use of hybrids in ponds and impoundments

It appears from this study at least, that RES female x GSF male is the preferred cross from a growth standpoint. The start of this thread was a study of GSF female x RES male.

Contains info on back crossing also.

But according to this study the GSF male x RES female did not cross successfully in a pond environment setting, where the RES male x GSF female did.

So it looks like I'm back to stocking the proposed pond with RES then adding a few GSF females to get the GRES cross.

Hybridization of fishes in North America

Hybridization between three species of Sunfish (BG, RES, GSF)

An oldie, but a lot of interesting information. Looks like RES male x GSF female produces 70-30 male to female and F1 x F1 also high reproduction. This is the cross that works in a pond environment. The opposite cross produced mostly males, but required being done in a laboratory. The resulting F1 x F1 subsequent cross did not work in pond or lab.

So it appears if a person wants pond raised RESxGSF it can be successful and will result in a 70-30 m/f ratio of F1 that will also reproduce. If a person did not want sustainable reproduction the GSFxRES would be the preferred cross but would be required to be obtained from a hatchery where the cross is done in the laboratory. At least that is what I got from the paper if I read it right.

I remember reading through all of those hybrid studies. I learned a lot, but in the end I had more questions than answers.


One more thing...if you decide to pursue hybrid lepomids in some form or another, you will need a nay-sayer. Yin to your yang, night to your day. All proponents of hybrid lepomids have a nay-sayer, it's just the way the universe works. If you're lucky, one will show up out of the blue of their own accord, and begin raining on your parade straightaway. If you want a really good one however, you may have to resort to some type of material compensation by way of payment for services rendered.

If this is your misfortune, I suggest that your opening offer consist of a vintage Pinot Noir. Be aware however, that nay-sayers often take great delight in obscure details, such as insisting that the grapes were crushed under the delicate feet of 19 year old virgins born during the month of May, or that the juice was filtered through cloth cut from the very same bolt of material as that which produced the Shroud of Turin.

A good nay-sayer does not come cheap.

I'll keep that in mind sprkplug.

But as far as a good Pinot Noir, my idea of a good wine is Welches grape juice spiked with 180 proof grain alcohol. That is my level of sophistication when it comes to wine.

I've thought about the naysayers a little. Even thought about the goals for this new pond I am planning. For the naysayers to consider the situation properly it is only fair that they have the perspective of some goals.

So here they are. Goals for snrub's proposed 3/4 acre pond that hopefully will come about this March or April, depending on the weather. Mostly in order of inportance.

1. Have an excuse to pull the dozer and scraper out of the shed and dig a big hole in the ground while wasting Diesel.

2. Expend some excessive time on my hands.

3. Waste a decent amount of money (always a top priority when it comes to a hobby).

4. Raise some fish of my own doing, instead of buying them. Put them in the pond and see what happens.

5. Goal is to have FHM (just gotta love the little buggers), RES and GRES by introducing 4-6 native GSF females out of my old pond.

5.5 Maybe accidentally learn something along the way while having fun doing it.

6. Maybe eventually actually catch some of them by hook and line.

7. In my case, the journey is the destination.

That is a start anyway. Goals likely to change as time goes by.

About the only thing I will be willing to offer my nay-sayers is maybe some day having a Pond Boss get together where they can have a chance to catch some of my future 2# GRES. And maybe something cool to drink.

Just read through this entire post with great interest...I think I have a pond with RES X GSF hybrids...I'll take pics and post but I've caught several of them that have the gape and coloring of a GSF but clearly have a red opercular tab - just like RES.

This pond has had both RES and GSF for many years.

Pics to follow.

Yes! Thank you very much for all the great pictures sprkplug. I'm hoping to get some natural crosses from my sediment pond experiment.

From the Childers study

Sexually mature F1 hybrids were collected from each population and sexed. Of the 10 kinds of viable F1 hybrids, seven were predominately males (RB, BR, and BG were 97 percent males; WG were 84 percent males; and RG, GB, and BW were approximately 70 percent males), two were approximately 50 percent males (GR and RW), and one was predominately female (GW was 16 percent males). Ricker (1948) determined the sex of 428 BR F1 hybrids in Indiana and found them to be 97.7 percent males.
Sex determination in sunfishes is very poorly understood. Bluegills, green sunfish, and their F1 hybrids apparently have 24 pairs of chromosomes, and the sex chromosomes are indistinguishable from the autosomes (Bright 1937). Bright also reported that the chromosomes are so similar in shape and size that he was unable to detect specific differences. Roberts (1964) found that red-ear, bluegill, and warmouth sunfishes each have 24 pairs of chromosomes; green sunfish from North Carolina had 24 pairs; but green sunfish from West Virginia had only 23 pairs.
The unbalanced phenotypic tertiary sex ratios of the F1 hybrid sunfish could result from unbalanced primary genetic sex ratios, specific differences in the strength of sex-determining factors, an overriding of the genetic sex by environmental factors, or differential mortality of the sexes.
Since the WG F1 hybrids were 84 percent males and the reciprocal cross hybrids were 16 percent males, it is possible that the strength of sex-determining factors of warmouths are 5.25 times more powerful than those of green sunfish. Specific differences in the strength of sex-determining factors cannot alone explain the sex ratios of the remaining eight kinds of viable hybrids, since none of these were predominately females.
RB and BG F1 hybrids were both 97 percent males. If differential mortality were the cause of these unbalanced sex ratios, much of the mortality would have had to occur after the swim-up fry stages, since in the stripping experiments total mortality between fertilization and the swim-up fry stages was only 14 percent for the RB and 27 percent for the BG F1 hybrids.
It is not known which sex is the heterogametic condition for the sex chromosomes of the four experimental species; however, Haldane (1922) formulated a rule which furnishes a clue: “When in the F1 offspring of a cross between two animal species or races, one sex is absent, rare, or sterile, that sex is always the heterozygous sex.” Using Haldane's rule, Krumholz (1950), in a study concerning BR F1 hybrids, pointed out that the males of both bluegills and red-ear sunfish are probably homozygametic for sex and the females heterozygametic. The application of Haldane's rule to all possible F1 hybrids produced from red-ear sunfish, bluegills, and green sunfish indicates that the female is the heterozygametic sex in these three species. Hybridization of male warmouths with females of the three Lepomis species resulted in partial or complete lethals, suggesting that in the warmouth the male is the heterogametic sex.
4.2 Reproductive success of hybrids
The reproductive success of each of the 10 kinds of viable F1 hybrids was investigated in one or more ponds. The occurrence and abundance of F2 hybrids were determined by seining, trapping, shocking, poisoning or draining the ponds after the F1 hybrids were one or more years of age. RB, BR, and BG failed to produce abundant F2 generations when in ponds which contained no other species of fishes. In contrast to these results, BR F1 hybrids produced abundant F2 generations in two ponds in Indiana (Ricker 1948). The other seven kinds of F1 hybrids produced abundant F2 populations when stocked in ponds containing no other fishes. Three of the seven kinds of F1 hybrids which produced large F2 populations when stocked in ponds containing no other fishes were also stocked in ponds with largemouth bass. RG F1 hybrids and GB F1 hybrids, when stocked with largemouth bass, produced only a few F2 hybrids. No F2 hybrids were found in the pond stocked with BW F1 hybrids and largemouth bass. WG F2 hybrids and GW F2 hybrids were stocked in ponds containing no other fishes. Both of these F2 hybrids produced large F3 populations.
Backcrosses, outcrosses, a four-species cross, and a three-species cross involving F1 hybrids are listed in Table III. The BW × B backcross was made by stocking adult male BW F1 hybrids and adult female bluegills in a pond which contained no other fishes. The other 12 crosses listed in Table III were made by stripping gametes from ripe adults and rearing the young to the free-swimming fry stage in the laboratory.
R × RW, W × RW, B × RW, G × RW, R × GB, and RB × W young were killed after they developed into free-swimming fry because of the lack of ponds in which they could be stocked. All six kinds of fry appeared to be normal and probably would have developed into adults. Free-swimming fry of the remaining six crosses in the laboratory were stocked in ponds and did develop into adult fishes. BW × B, G × GW, and B × RG populations produced large numbers of young.
Table III
Successful backcrosses, outcrosses, four-way cross, and another cross involving F1 hybrid sunfishes.1
Backcross
♂ × ♀ Outcrosses
♂ × ♀ Four-Species Cross
♂ × ♀ Three-Species Cross
♂ × ♀
R × RW R × GB RB × GW BW × GW
G × GW R × BW
W × RW R × GW
BW × B B × RG
R × RW
G × RW
RW × W
1 R = red-ear sunfish, B = bluegill, G = green sunfish, W = warmouth.
Hubbs & Hubbs (1933) reported that in Michigen F1 hybrids of bluegills, green sunfish, longear sunfish, pumpkinseeds, and orangespotted sunfish were unable to reproduce because males were sterile and ova stripped from the few adult females used in the experiments appeared distinctly abnormal. This study, often cited in the literature, has resulted in a rather widespread belief that all male hybrid sunfish are sterile. Results of my experiments conclusively establish that a number of different kinds of hybrid sunfishes produced in Illinois are not sterile, are fully capable of producing abundant F2 and F3 generations, and can be successfully backcrossed to parent species and even outcrossed to nonparental species.

Thanks for posting that ewest. Have read it a while back but following all the crosses makes my head spin. Need a flow chart to keep track of them all.

I'm only a novice at this, and it is probably only in my minds eye that this exists, but it seems to me the BxRG (Edit: Bluegill male X {RES male x GSF female}female cross if I understand the paper right) three way cross SHOULD make an excellent hybrid sunfish.

Considering though that hybrid sunfish for the most part are thought of distastefully by the majority of fish enthusiasts, and for fish farms raising them for sale a hybrid is a hybrid is a hybrid that only needs to live a long time on a fish route truck, and that few would be willing to pay a commercial fish farm for creating a "premium" hybrid sunfish, the likelihood of commercial stocking BxRG ever being available to stock a pond is nil.

So if a person wants some, he is going to need to raise them himself. And there likely will never be any research type evidence proving of any superiority or inferiority.

I would still like some.

Article I found on hybridization and sunfish breeding habits.

Some bream are bad eggs.

Pictures spread throughout my Forage pond thread of RESxGSF hybrids starting about with this post. I wanted some GRES hybrids but had no idea I would get them out of my forage pond because of the GSF contamination. Forage pond thread with a number of RESxGSF hybrids in various different posts

One I believe to be a RESxGSF hybrid caught off the dock today at the main pond. Almost 10" length.

The water is turbid from excessive runoff and 9" waves so the green GSF bars on the cheeks are washed out but they are faintly there. Notice the short pectoral fin of a GSF but the partial bright orange opercular tab of a RES but whitish continuation of the border of a GSF around the rest of the tab where orange or red would be on a RES.

Nasty day with 52 degrees and 20+ mph gusty winds. Caught several hybrids by bouncing 1/64 oz jig tipped with chartreuse Gulp Alive waxies just off the bottom right up next to the posts holding the dock up on the lee side.

Any opinions on the pedigree of the first fish? It does not show up in the picture as well as in real life but the border on the opercular tab is a solid white with just a hint of orange. A GSF has a translucent tab border usually of orangish/whitishness and a RES has a solid red or orange. But this fish the tab border was solid white with maybe just a hint of orange.

RESxGSF hybrid??? I'm not sure. Nice fish though. It went back in to grow some more.

The rest of the fish are RESxGSF hybrids that were transferred either my sediment pond or forage pond where they were created from a few GSF contaminating the ponds. I assume they are RESxGSF. The other possibility is CNBGxGSF (I catch a smaller number of those also) because I also had CNBG in the sediment pond. But I believe the rest of the pictures are of RESxGSF.

All caught out of main pond.

Pretty cool, not as cool as the Warmouth X CNBG hybrids I posted but pretty cool...

LOL

Bottom 3 fish look like GRES hybrids to me...top fish appears a F3-4 GBG heavily skewed towards BG genetics IMO. I'm not a lepomis expert by any means...

Here is a RESxGSF hybrid that shows both characteristics very well. Caught from my forage pond.

What I see in the characteristics that to me make it a hybrid are listed below. I encourage others to post what they see, both in agreement and disagree.

This fish comes out of a pond with only RES and a few GSF. No BG or predators present and the only other fish in the pond are GS and FHM minnows.

1. Solid orange specifically on the end of the opercular tab (as opposed to wrapped around) like a RES
2. Translucent whitish border above and below the solid orange tab reminiscent of a GSF (hard to see in this picture but very evident in real life)
3. Green cheek bars like a GSF
4. Longer and narrow pectoral fin compared to a GSF (more like a RES)
5. Lower fin tipping color and belly color similar to a lot of my GSF
6. Blue-green flecks of color in the main body (GSF like)
7. Too large mouth for a pure RES that size

I agree with the id.

You should start taking pics of gill rakers !

One thing I see is your RES have a longer more torpedo shape than what I see. See RES pic below.

Some more RESxGSF hybrids. These two came out of my forage pond and there are no BG in that pond so I know they are of RES parentage.

Third and fourth fish are pure RES for comparison of traits. All out of my forage pond.

I've said it before; I'll say it again. Those Redear girls will go out with anyone.

John, from my perspective it looks like those RESxGSF have exaggerated GSF features. Maybe it’s just picture angles, but they look to have larger longer mouths than a normal BGxGSF cross.

snrub - your hybrids appear similar to those infamous georgia giants.

Why do you think I like them so much?

I get a range of features. Some show more GSF than others. Had I not seen hundreds and hundreds of hybrids from fingerlings to 9+", it might be tempting to just call that fish a GSF. But all you have to do is get a real GSF beside it and the hybrid features become very evident.

The mouth is large on that fish, but if it were a pure GSF either the mouth would be bigger or the fish would not be as tall for that size mouth. The mouth to height (tallness) of the fish is off for a Pure GSF. Pure GSF will have the same size mouth as a LMB of the same length.

Another thing is the opercular tab. These fish have definite darker orange tab borders than what my GSF have. My GSF have a translucent border anywhere from almost white to an orangeish cast. But it is always translucent. It may not show well in the picture but this fish has a mixture of translucent and solid pigment (RES is solid). Some will have an orange dot in the middle of the translucence. Pure RES will always be solid color and none of mine wrap around the opercular tab. They are on the end only whereas the GSF margin wraps around.

I also get hybrids out of my sediment pond. There it is harder for me to tell for sure if they are CNBG/GSF or RES/GSF. Both potential crosses can be made there as well as potentially northern BG because during high water events they can swim up into this pond (with difficulty but they get there - I have seen them do it). That pond had CNBG and RES originally stocked. The nice thing about this forage pond is that it has never had BG stocked and out of hundreds of fish caught and thousands trapped I have never seen a BG. That gives me confidence that I only have to determine if it is either 1. RES, 2.GSF or 3.a hybrid thereof. That makes it a lot easier for me.

In my main pond I originally had 40 or so HBG as contamination at stocking time. I religiously fished them out and transferred them to my old refurbished pond that already had GSF in it. Got rid of those "things". About the time I could not catch any more or at least would very rarely catch one (they are much easier to fish out because of their propensity to bite a hook compared to BG) I decided I really did like hybrids. I'm a pan fish guy, not a big bass guy. So I started stocking my main pond with home raised hybrids from my forage and sediment ponds. Both CNBG/GSF and RES/GSF.

In fact I had even thought about specifically stocking a few GSF females to get some GRES (RESxGSF hybrids). Well as luck or fate would have it, it happened by accident instead of intent.

I get LOTS of naturally occurring hybrids out of my two small ponds. My thinking is that the reason I get so many hybrids is two fold. One is I fish out and remove as many GSF as I can (both trap and hook). So the GSF population stays relatively low compared to the other sunfish. Second both of these ponds have very low visibility most of the year. The forage pond because of a very heavy planktonic algae bloom and the sediment pond mostly because of the high rate of runoff from agriculture ground. I surmise it is the combination of the GSF having limited mating options and the turbid water that give me so many hybrids.

All the hybrids get moved to my main pond. We have caught some up in the 9" range recently and filleted them. I really like the fish. And when the pure BG get persnickety about getting caught I can nearly always depend on a hybrid accommodating my hook.

More hybrid pictures. I am not certain on the parentage of the hybrids pictured below but I will give them my best guess. I would be interested in others opinions.

My best guess is listed on each picture. I do have northern BG for the most part but also have had CNBG in my sediment pond for two years now and last year transferred many hundreds of the offspring to my main pond. I do catch the CNBG occasionally from the main pond and nearly always from the sediment pond although during high water events a few northern BG have swam up into the sediment pond so there can also be both in it although I have caught no northern BG that I am aware of from that pond.

So most of my hybrid BG are actually CNBGxGSF but I do have both.

Nearly all the hybrids have been raised in my own ponds.

Edit: pic 182346 may be a CNBGxGSF rather than from northern BG. Just hard to tell for sure.

One I caught yesterday that particularly shows the RES parentage. This likely was transferred as a fingerling either from my forage or sediment pond into my main pond where I caught it.

RESxGSF hybrid - same fish two pictures

First picture has face of fish shaded so it shows up the GSF'ish green cheek bars really well. Second picture I stood to shade the fish and the orange opercular tab shows up much better. Notice that it looks RES'ish but is not completely solid like a RES. But it is much more solid color than a GSF would exhibit with the solid part being on the end of the ear tab (RES'sih) and the whitish translucent portion wrapping around the tab (GSF'sih).

Just going by the pictures, a person might think it was two different fish. But it is only one fish (you can actually see it is laying in the same spot and position). Just goes to show how lighting and angle can change the perception. I often see things in a fish when I have it live that in pictures the feature can either look less or more pronounced.

Nice pictures snrub! Your GSF/RES hybrids are very cool.

I always try to take my RES pictures in the shade so they don't look washed out.

snrub, would you have any pics of cnbg/res hyb? In my stocking plan I added 1850 res to a 3.25 acre pond along with my 3250 cnbg. In doing so, I think I have seen one or two cnbg/res hyb but not sure of it. I think with the fertile green water, it may have given an opportunity for the spawning but I am not sure.

I have only seen a couple of fish I thought could have been CNBGxRES hybrids, but I am not good enough at identifying fish to be sure they were. I just knew they looked different than most of my HBG or HRES.

The only reason I am reasonably comfortable identifying these HRES (RESxGSF) is that I have seen lots and lots of them come from a pond that they are the only possible hybrid because RES and GSF are the only sunfish in the pond (my forage pond).

Below is another RESxGSF that I caught out of my main pond yesterday. Lots of these hybrids were transferred from my forage pond as fingerlings and now they have grown. I return all of these particular hybrids to the pond to grow up because I am curious as to how they will turn out.

No sooner than I say I have rarely seen in my pond CNBGxRES hybrids and I catch two in a row of what I think are BGxRES and most likely CNBGxRES (because that is the mix that was in my sediment pond where lots of hybrids were created, transferred to my main pond, where these 4 fish were caught).

So the pics below are not RESxGSF, what this thread is about, but I thought it would be interesting to post the pictures to see the contrast. All fish pictured below were caught today and I got pics of both sides of each fish for better identification.

The first two fish are what I believe are CNBGxRES (or could be RESxCNBG - male of the cross usually stated first). No guarantees and I will be interested to hear what the experts say. I will give my reasoning and what I see and they can agree or disagree.

The first four pictures are of the two alleged CNBGxRES. Here is what I see that makes me believe they are that cross. 1. There is a translucent margin on the opercular tab. Cant remember for sure but I think it was Bill Cody that said a pure BG will always have a solid opercular. No margin. If that is so, the translucent margin indicates this fish is a hybrid if a person believes it has BG genetics involved. 2. I see no GSF genetics in the fish. No large mouth, no green bars below the eyes, relatively long pectoral fin. 3. What I do see below the eye and opercular tab is the yellow mottled patch that is on about 3/4 of my RES and is not a characteristic of any of my BG. 4. orange-ish translucent border on the opercular tab. That could be a characteristic of a GSF, but in this case there are no other GSF characteristics so the orange could come from RES genetics. 5. Could it be a RES with just a poorly defined red/orange tab? Possibly but the top of the fish has bright blue/purple that is very characteristic of some of my CNBG but never my RES. 6. The possible genetics in my ponds are BG, CNBG, RES and GSF. I have never seen, to my knowledge, any other sunfish species that stood out as being different than the mentioned four. Therefore by the characteristics I see and process of elimination I deem the first 4 pictures of two fish to be either RESxBG or BGxRES.

Fish 3 and four are just what I consider to be normal CNBGxGSF HBG. They could be northern BGxGSF but the probability is much higher that it is CNBG genetics because nearly all of my hybrids came from my sediment pond and CNBG is what was stocked along with RES in that pond with a few GSF from unknown source providing the GSF portion of the HBG. I put the regular HBG in there for comparison. They are nice fish, fillet out well and I like them. The first two fish went back in the pond. The HBG went to the holding pen to be invited to dinner.

Edit: the translucent opercular tab border is not very pronounced in the picture for fish #2 but if you look closely you can see it. It was very evident in person. Funny I caught the first two fish back to back in the same area.

Thank you snrub for the pic's of suspected res/bg hybd. The two fish I caught were very similar. About the only difference was in the color of the fish and that could be due to your water color or the picture itself. My two were a little more of a brownish/copper colored checkered pattern on the two side of the fish. Yours look to be a blueish/grey color from the pic. So, maybe others might join in with an opinion.

My BG have really turned colorful this fall. So much so I mentioned how pretty they were to my wife. I have lots that have that bright blue almost purple across the back and some of the females have such a bright almost iridescent yellow belly. Other colors enhanced to. The bright blue across the back is another BG feature that I do not see in my RES.

Another alleged RESxGSF hybrid caught tonight. Pretty fish.

Second fish a regular HBG for comparison. This HBG looks more like a regular BG than some.

Snrub, This may be a bit off topic from your work with RES, but you seem to have a strong interest in monitoring hybrids. From what I've read, you have CNBG and northern BG in your pond. Do you notice many differences? I get that GSFxBG=HBG which to leads to a more aggressive growth which is common when cross breeding many things. The CNBG and BG must certainly cross in your pond so do you see any "mixed" BG? And are they any more aggressive or come in on the end of a hook any more frequently? I wish I could put some CNBG in my pond up here.

Good questions. Most of which I do not have answers for.

Some background. My main pond is 3 acres and was 2-3 years old before any CNBG were introduced. So the pond was likely at carrying capacity and had northern BG in the tens if not hundreds of thousands.

I stocked 100 CNBG and 175 RES in my 1/10th acre forage pond. They spawned and the pond likely went to carrying capacity with a large percentage being CNBG. I fished out what I could what had grown to be 5-7" original CNBG and put them in the main pond. I also trapped lots of fingerlings and put in the main pond. At year two of the sediment pond I had a fish kill and dip netted thousands of CNBG out before they surely would have died and put them in the main pond. So I put maybe a few thousand CNBG into a pond that likely had tens of thousands or more of northern BG.

The point of all of this is that my main pond being 30 times larger, even if both ponds were at carrying capacity and all the CNBG from the forage pond went into the main pond there would still be at least 30 times more northern BG compared to CNBG. I suspect it is closer to 100 to one. Point being I rarely, but do occasionally, catch a CNBG. The females I sometimes have a hard time telling. I will catch a fish with the wide vertical stripes common to CNBG and I think it may be a CNBG but my fish ID skills are not good enough to tell for sure. Once in a great while I will catch a nice male with traditional markings that it is certain to be a CNBG. So the CNBG are a very minor part of my total fish population in my main pond.

Will they intermix? My understanding is that they will and one reason I got some was for genetic diversity. Are they "hybrids" with hybrid vigor? My understanding is they are not. Since they are actually the same species (each a sub-specie) they do not take on the trait of a hybrid but will take on mixed characteristics. If the experts say otherwise, believe them over me. That is just how I understand it.

I am not far enough along to know if I have any mixed northern BG/CNBG. It is possible at this point because I had transferred the 6" nominal adults last year as I caught them. They have had time to spawn. But since I am having trouble identifying female CNBG for sure I'm not sure I will be able to tell a mixed one when I see it. That could very well be what I am seeing with the wide vertical bars on some of my fish. The CNBG could already be intermixing.

I'm not a purist so it does not matter to me. I like the hybrids and I like both types BG. As long as they are healthy pan fish that is my goal for the main pond - a pan fish pond. I have been harvesting some really nice 9"+ HBG that were originally created in my sediment pond and transferred to the main pond. (a few GSF got in that sediment pond and created a LOT of CNBGxGSF hybrids and a much lower amount of RESxGSF hybrids - these also got transferred to the main pond at fish kill time and some before on purpose).

That is what I think I know to date. Next year I will try to notice and take pictures if I see what I think are CNBG northern BG crosses.

References:
fish kill post in sediment pond thread
Main pond thread
Sediment pond thread

Edit to add a another picture of one I caught today.

Thanks for the response last week. The holiday got in the way and I didn't get around to any followup. Along with your RES projects, maybe this would give you cause to dig a new puddle just for breeding northern BG x CNBG

BTW, I've read through all of your threads and projects and really appreciate what you've done and continue to do. I think you and I have similar goals - nice pan fish before predators, place for family to enjoy, and a hobby that doubles as an inspirational learning environment for chronic tinkerers.

Thanks for the kind words. I think I missed your reply when you posted it.

Did some fishing today and caught a number of hybrids from my main pond (as well as a lot of BG and one foot long CC). These will have been hybrids produced either in my sediment pond or forage pond and transferred to my main pond as fingerlings.

The first one I believe to be a RESxGSF hybrid. The other two are likely CNBGxGSF as those were the two possibilities in my forage pond that was stocked with CNBG and RES with a few GSF introduced somehow. Also caught several smaller ones, but these three were decent size.

This fish has the appearance of a pure RES but lacking much of the red/orange coloration on the opercular tab. It does have a narrow orange band but it is small and is such that leads me to believe it might be a RESxBG or RESxCNBG hybrid.

Any opinions on the pedigree?

I am thinking hybrid RESxBG with a heavy RES expression.

On the other hand it could be a pure RES with a damaged opercular tab, the red/orange area is thin and can easily be damaged. RES do nip on each others ear tabs and they can also get fungal infections when the water is cold. Did the other side look the same? I have seen a few RES that looked like that in my pond but the ear tab on the other side always looked normal.

I'm guessing the same.

Both sides of the tab are the same. You can see the red but the margin is thinner than one would expect on a fish this size and it is partially covered by a thin layer of translucent black that further hides the red portion.

Is shows up a little better in real life than the picture but the red tab is still very marginal.

I have had trouble in pictures showing the tab border well at times. When the fish flares its gills, sometimes it changes the angle enough the margin does not show up very well in pictures. I find this often in GSF or GSF hybrids. When the gills are closed and the tab up against the body it shows well but if the fish flares its gills when I snap the picture the margin does not always show up well. The fish will just not always hold a pose for me.

Same thing goes for dorsal fin extension. If I remember I will lightly tap the fish on one side with one finger and the dorsal fin will extend for the picture. Of course that also can cause them to jump off the table onto the ground.

If there was just more of a red/orange margin it would be a picture perfect RES.

I agree with Shorty !

Not just ear tab but pec fin looks hybrid to me also.

https://i.imgur.com/uR9miRh.jpg

Shrub this looks similar to the RES that I catch out of my pond.I believe this fish is from my original stocking in October 2015. Do you think it has some GSF genetics? I do still have a few GSF even after culling over 250+.

I would call it pure RES but I am also no expert. I see nothing that leads me to believe it is a hybrid.

Here is a picture of a RES I took out of my forage pond last night by cast net. Notice it has a very thin red opercular tab. Most of my RES have much more prominent red/orange borders. But I would also call this a pure RES. I see no other characteristics to make me think it is other than RES. There is just a lot of natural variation within species.

Be interesting to see what others think of both of our fish.

Snrub, your picture looks like a female RES with a thin color margin on the ear tab.

Thanks John! I enjoy following your posts. If seems like I do experience a lot of variation in my fish. I hope to have some more fish pictures soon.

snrub on your pic I agree again with Shorty - female RES.

Glad to get the confirmation from both of you because this one went down to my RES only pond.

I'm calling this a RESxGSF hybrid.

I filleted several GSF tonight and none of them have the intensity of orange on the ear tab this hybrid does. I know for a fact I have numerous RESxGSF hybrids because I have moved many from a pond that only has RES and GSF. No BG at all. So I know this cross is in this pond and I believe this is one of the transfers all grown up.

Because of the sun angle the GSF green cheek bars do not show up well in the picture but they were very evident in person. Guessing it about 8" long. Wife had a 5 3/4# CC on the table with the measure or it would have been pictured there.

This one met the fillet knife tonight.

Handsome fish. Fat with good proportions. It is great to finally see one. Yours is the first and only color photo of this particular hybrid I have seen. Bet it was tasty. I know this may sound wierd, but I like the appearance of this fish better than its parents (or at least better than straight up GSF). I cant say that for BGxGSF hybrids which to me look a wee bit creepy.

Thanks! I thought it was a good looking fish also.

Kind of hated to fillet it, but with an over abundance of forage fish in this pond almost everything forage fish wise caught that is big enough gets filleted or if small gets transferred to a trash pond or cut the tail off for a LMB snack. I try to harvest quite a lot of fish to keep the biomass of the pond at reasonable levels to prevent a fish kill. I feed so the pond produces lots of pounds of fish.

The ones that go back into the pond are large male BG and CNBG, all RES, a select few large female BG if they look like they have outstanding genetics (but most females get filleted) and once in a while a large GSF if it looks like it has the potential to reach trophy size.

If I ever get the LMB population up to speed not as many will fall under the knife. I would really like to be catching lots of 1-2# LMB but there are few to be found in my pond. I did catch about a 4 pound LMB yesterday, but luckily it flipped off my barbless 1/64 oz jig before I could land it. In this hot weather I was glad it got away before I got it out of the water.

It was a really good fishing day yesterday.

Glad to hear the fishing was good. I've always thought that RES yield more filet for their weight than BG but don't know for sure. What are your thoughts? That fish just looks to be the perfect size and dimensions to yield a very good filet.

They might most likely be RES/GSF as this paper suggests. Within this is referenced:

"Attempts to simultaneously produce R x G and B x G F1 hybrids in the same pond by parental stocking have not been successful (Lewis and Heidinger 1978). The crosses always went in the direction of the parental redear sunfish."

This pertains to crosses of female GSF where the female GSF have the choice of RES or BG males.

Been looking through the thread and see you've posted many other photos. This is an interesting hybrid.

Interesting article.

In my sediment pond the initial stocking was 175 fingerling RES and 100 CNBG (FHM had been added earlier as soon as there was water in the pond).

According to that article most if not all the hybrids produced in that pond should be RESxGSF. Not sure where the GSF even came from as none were supposedly stocked. The sediment pond gets high water flows at times and is turbid with the high flows then clears up. I have assumed the high numbers of hybrids produced in the sediment pond was due to the limited partner availibility of the GSF along with turbid water (to perhaps make species determination more difficult).

In my forage pond supposedly only RES (and FHM) were stocked but in this stocking the fingerlings I got were terrible. I hand sorted them and they contained numerous hybrids with GSF parentage. I sorted out all the hybrids and put in the pond only the ones large enough I could positively identify as pure RES. But that was early in my pondmeister days and I was not nearly as proficient at separating out pure RES from hybrids or GSF as I am today. So either I let a GSF or hybrid slip through (very possible) or however a GSF got in my sediment pond they also got into my forage pond. Whatever the case was, I also ended up producing lots of RESxGSF hybrids in my forage pond. As I raised fingerlings I transferred both the RES and the hybrids over to my main pond.

So I know my main pond has numerous hybrids with RES parentage.

I was under the assumption that most of the hybrids from my sediment pond were CNBGxGSF but if the article you linked is accurate they should mostly be RESxGSF. I do not really believe that though because I often see in the hybrids the wide vertical bands that are more similar to my CNBG than a RES.

So without some DNA testing I may never know.

I do know that I like the hybrids, whatever the parentage is. They grow well (pellet hogs just like GSF), fillet well and fight well. Early on in my main 3 acre pond I had a small number of hybrids from my original stocking (was supposed to be all BG but 30 or 40 hybrids slipped in the stock). I pretty much fished them out (the article is correct about hybrids being easily caught) and transferred them to my old 1 acre pond (kind of a trash fish pond), thinking they were undesirable. About the time I could not catch any more I decided I really did like the hybrids after all. I could always catch them when nothing else wanted to bite.

So when I started getting naturally produced hybrid fingerlings from my forage and sediment ponds, I transferred them to my main pond along with pure RES and CNBG. So I have went from trying to get rid of hybrids in my main pond to stocking them on purpose.

Keep in mind I like fishing for pan fish. If I never had a LMB over 2# that would be ok with me. So the hybrids as pan fish go are just fine with me.

I can not tell you anything about the fillets on a RES. I think I cleaned one a couple years back that got gut hooked but because of low initial stocking of RES in my main pond I always return them to the water. The idea of having RES and raising fingerlings in my forage pond and sediment ponds was to increase the number of RES in my main pond by supplemental stocking transfers. It is working because I am starting to catch a RES once in a while in my main pond now.

Been trapping some GSF out of my forage pond and run across some hybrids too so I took the time to do some side by side pictures of similar size fish. The fish pictured are in the 3-4" range which is the size my minnow trap with the 1.5" opening catches the most of.

How do I know the hybrid is a RESxGSF? Those are the only two species in my forage pond. No BG stocked and none ever caught.

The hybrids got transferred to my main pond. The GSF get their tails cut off and fed to a couple pet LMB and a half dozen CC in the main pond that hang around my dock waiting for me to throw them in one at a time to them. Kind of fun watching a LMB hammer a 4" GSF but they have to be quick to beat the CC to them.

Their bellies are so extended because they are stuffed full of Optimal Hand Toss pellets that I use to bait the minnow trap.

This one might be a RESxGSF hybrid. Left and right side pictures. Notice length of pectoral fin and the orange dot most noticeable on the left side of the fish.

Just for comparison the third picture is of a pure GSF. The boards the fish are laying on are 2x6 so about 5.5" wide for size comparison. Note the length of the pectoral fin on the GSF compared to the hybrid.

Edit: Last picture was taken right after catching the fish. The first two pictures were taken after the fish had been on ice just before filleting it.

Interesting fish.

Dave I might not have even noticed or thought about the pedigree of hybrids except I have my forage pond that has only RES and GSF (have never stocked or caught a BG out of the forage pond) and I know there have been numerous hybrids from this pond that I transferred to my main pond. So unless they all got eaten after being transferred, I am pretty certain at least a small portion of my hybrid sunfish in my main pond are RES hybrids.

The trick is just figuring out which ones when I catch them.

Another interesting thing from my perspective is early on I got quite a few RESxGSF hybrids from that forage pond. This year I have trapped lots of GSF fingerlings and trapped and cast netted numerous RES fingerlings but hardly ever see a hybrid. So something earlier on caused a condition to favor more hybrid production. I suspect it was that I maybe only had very few GSF so they only had limited partners to spawn with, but that is just speculation.

Has your visibility changed since last year's spawning...ie: was it less clear then, as compared to this year? I've read that often contributes to crossing.

Also, during last year's spawning, if you were short on either species' breeding age males or females, as compared to the other, that may have had something to do with it too. Not knowing which direction the cross was made.

You probably have a better idea on how these crosses occur than I do tho.

From what I have read (definitely not from what I "know") the most likely "natural" cross is RES male x GSF female. It appears the GSF females are more likely to be flusies than the RES females. The opposite cross can be done in controlled environment but usually requires human intervention. That is my understanding so I assume (dangerous) that my RES crosses are that direction.

As far as turbidity, yes there have been changes. Early on in this ponds life there was a lot of clay around and every rain made it turbid. So for the first year or two there were periods of turbidity mostly dependent on rain patterns. I lined most of the pond with crushed limestone so as the pond developed and got a good algae bloom it was much less turbid and any turbidity was because of algae instead of suspended clay. So that could explain the unusually high number of hybrids produced earlier in the ponds life. I get lots of hybrids produced in my sediment pond also and it suffers from seasonal turbidity because of agricultural runoff and sediment. So in my opinion, turbidity does play an important role.

One other interesting thing that may affect hybrid production going forward. My daughter is in the process of building a small house 30 feet from my forage pond. In that process we have dug up a lot of clay for septic lines, water line and electric line. Now that pond just the other day again became very turbid because of this runoff from a recent rain and probably will continue to be affected through next spring after rainfall events. So it will be interesting to see if I start seeing more hybrids again as the RES do their late season spawn this fall and into the spawn next spring.

I would be interested to hear what happens.

I'd almost bet you'll see an increase in hybrid offspring again, with that cloudy water blindfolding your male RES to all those lovestruck "flusies"!!

They do make some pretty babies, tho!!

Funny, soon after posting my reply we went out fishing and I caught a number of hybrids that I think may be RESxGSF. They look different than my regular CNBGxGSF hybrids which I also have quite a number of. The CNBGxGSF all came out of my sediment pond where I stocked CNBG and RES.

Pictures of the candidates below. Last picture is of a pure GSF for comparison.

Comparing these pics to the first, these appear to be carrying more of the RES traits than GSF (more slope to the nose and the obvious red tag), but you can definitely see GSF in there too.

Yup....pretty babies, indeed!!!

Any chance there are PS genes in the mix? Interesting fish for sure. What about 3 way crosses? Third fish is different. Look at the tail margin light edging - only in CNBG.

The third fish does look significantly different. And yes there is the possibility of a three way mutt.

I suppose the differenf look could just be natural variance of the cross (not all individuals look exactly alike) or a different cross alltogether. I have ran across several that do look similar to the third fish. He is larger than the others so I suppose size/age could make a difference also.

I did stock CNBG and RES in my sediment pond with a few accidental GSF in there to make all the hybrids. So CNBG parentage is possible.

I like the looks of the fish. They tend to be pellet hogs, grow fast, bite a hook well and fillet out nice.

It might seem like I have an excess amount of hybrids and based on yesterday's fishing would support that (tougher to get fish to bite than the day before). But I would estimate, based on what I see at feeding time, GSF and hybrids probably comprise no more than 5% of my forage fish BG type population. I catch lots more BG than hybrids. The hybrids are just something different so I am kind of fascinated with them.

Thanks for starting this discussion John and I hope I'm not hijacking here. I would love to get some thoughts from others. I'm not good at identification yet. I have been concerned that the "BG" I received at stocking were in fact mostly HBG (or even worse just GSF). I haven't kept a faithful log, but 90% of what I catch with a worm under a bobber are like the HBG/GSF in my pics attached. I was supposed to get 200 BG and 100 HBG at the time of stocking. I understand HBG should be more aggressive, but I hardly catch anything but what's in the pics.

My pond is only two years old and stocked last spring (2017). I think most seem to be doing well (most are 5-6" with an occasional 7-8"), but I'm not confident I got exactly what I was told.

Coming from someone who has embraced GSF, I'm 99% sure the first two pics are GSF. The third may have some RES in it, but you do find a GSF occasionally with red tips on the gill flap.

http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Main=37952&Number=494376#Post494376

I'm also really new at fish ID.
I was told this fish is a hybrid BG.
there are some decent pics of HBG/GSF in this thread.

They all three look pretty GSF'y to me.

The middle picture looks pure GSF. Harder for me to tell on the first and third picture but if they have some other sunfish in them the traits sure are heavy towards GSF. They all have pectoral fins and green cheek bars that look GSF.

It is easier to tell with them in hand than in pictures only. A pure GSF will not only have a big mouth but a wide body compared to a BG. The hybrid is something in between. But if you have a pure GSF and a hybrid side by side you can see that the GSF lacks the height of body the hybrid has but the GSF will have a wider (thicker) body.

It would be easy to call all three of those GSF but I would not be surprised if there was not some mix in the first and third pictures. Thing of it is, none of them look like traditional F1 HBG. If they are hybrids they could be F2's with a lot more GSF characteristics being exhibited.

That is my take but I am far from an expert. I can tell my own fish better than someone elses because if I question I can pretty easily get my hands on another fish that I am sure of the pedigree. Once I can compare them side by side then the hybrid becomes evident. I also know what my possibilities are by the fish I stocked so that helps too.

On a side note concerning GSF, I have had the occasion to fillet quite a few pretty good size GSF recently and the meat and skin are distinctively different than BG.

One notable difference is that the GSF will have a thicker fillet but the body is not as tall so the fillet is not as wide. Overall I think I get less meat from a GSF than a BG of similar size.

But the main things I notice is the meat is finer grained (flakes are smaller when cooked) and the skin and scales are quite different. On a BG to get the fillet off the skin just run the knife between. Comes off pretty easily. But when I fillet GSF I have to be lots more careful with the knife or I cut through the skin. The skin seems to be thinner and more delicate, the scales finer and the meat more tender. All in all, when cutting the fillet off the skin I have to be a lot more careful or I mess up the fillet.

I can't say that I have noticed any difference in filleting a HBG vs a pure BG but in reality I just did not pay that much attention. I will try to compare better in the future. But the GSF was enough different it was easily noticeable that I had to be more careful getting the skin off.

snrub, what about the taste between the two? I prefer the
warmouth, rockbass, goggleye over the bg. But I still like the bg also.

Hey shrub,

Do you think it could be because GSF spend so much time in super shallow, and warmer water? The heat causing them to be softer?

Those 3 look like GSF. I don't see any BG (or HBG) traits in any of them. Only slight possibility that No. 2 is part HBG is the yellow on the fins , which can be (but not exclusively) a HBG trait.

You guys are giving me a sick feeling that I received poor stockers. I don't want to take away from the initial topic, but any guidance on what route I should now take? I know some (Mike above for one) have embraced GSF, but would like other thoughts on correction. Thanks.

I hate to say it JW, but if you're wanting them gone completely, about the only option you've got is to kill everything in the pond and start over, but that's not necessarily a 100% guarantee you'll never get GSF in your pond again. They have a reputation for "just showing up".

That being said, GSF will readily go into a trap baited with cheap dog food, and you can reduce their numbers significantly that way. It wont eliminate them, but it will knock them back some.

If you plan on restocking HBG, I think the probabilities of having them again are pretty high, tho, being that half of that cross is GSF.

As has been said... when you get lemons, make lemonade. GSF are aggressive and feisty critters. Eager to bite, and a hoot to catch on light tackle. They dont eat too bad either!!

I wouldn't worry about GSF. They only spawn annually and BG have a never ending all Spring and Summer spawn.