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#386472 09/01/14 05:23 PM
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The details:

.4 acre pond 9' max depth well irrigation. Feed AM 500/600 3x daily. 150 Male [6-9"] CSBG, 94 F [6-12"] YP

Forage base thousands FHM, Crayfish, PK Shrimp

Few observations this Spring and Summer. Good news - have witnessed zero reproduction in YP or BG, and I set traps weekly baited with AM and surely would have captured something by now. Glad I got the gender ID correct.

The bad - fish have never hit pellets very aggressively. I actually shut down feeding times from 6x to 3x daily - very little feeding AM or PM.

I figured fish were making a living on the YOY Crays, PKs, and abundant FHM and were maybe satiated and not interested in expending energy to fight FHM schools for pellets.

Sampled the pond today with a new digital scale with tray to determine WR values.

All fish caught appeared to be underperforming. All BG bellies were concave - just don't look like they are thriving. YP were slender and light. Here are the results and I'm using WR chart from bigbluegill.com and Willis/Lusk article from PB:

BG:
9" - 10.75 oz - 116 WR
9" - 10.65 oz - 115 WR
8.75" - 11.1 oz - 126 WR
9" - 10.6 oz - 115 WR
8.5" - 8.65 oz - 110 WR
8.75" - 9.5 oz - 107 WR
8.5" - 9.55 oz - 123 WR

YP:
9.5" - 5.55 oz - 77 WR
9.5" - 7.1 oz - 99 WR

I'm perplexed the BG aren't faring better, and the concave stomachs were especially troubling. I was expecting to sample very stout BG considering the amount of natural forage and pellets.

The YP results were equally worrisome - with tens of thousands of FHM, yoy crays and grass shrimp I had much higher hopes.

All fish stocked were assumed pellet trained, maybe 10% were questionable. I'm open to any feedback/guidance on how to improve the condition of the fish. My goals are to achieve a WR average of 130-150 per fish. I figured if I provided enough forage, fish would respond with explosive growth. I'm missing something here...so far it's not much of a "trophy" fishery.



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I know the numbers on the BG aren't what you were hoping for, but they appear extremely consistent, and they are all above 100%. On the surface, the math looks pretty good.

I don't recall....how long have these fish been in place, and what size were they when you stocked them, TJ?


"Forget pounds and ounces, I'm figuring displacement!"

If we accept that: MBG(+)FGSF(=)HBG(F1)
And we surmise that: BG(>)HBG(F1) while GSF(<)HBG(F1)
Would it hold true that: HBG(F1)(+)AM500(x)q.d.(=)1.5lbGRWT?
PB answer: It depends.
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BG stocked Autumn 13 and Spring 14 6-9". Most were in the 6-7" range. All YP stocked Spring 14 6-8" and a couple 12s.


Many men go fishing all of their lives without knowing that it is not fish they are after. ~ Henry David Thoreau

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Did you open up any of the fish and see what they were eating? Just curious as to what they preferred. (forage or pellets)

I'm grasping here, but if they went off pellets in favor of forage, wouldn't the net gain to the fish be far less, as per Optimal Forage Theory?


"Forget pounds and ounces, I'm figuring displacement!"

If we accept that: MBG(+)FGSF(=)HBG(F1)
And we surmise that: BG(>)HBG(F1) while GSF(<)HBG(F1)
Would it hold true that: HBG(F1)(+)AM500(x)q.d.(=)1.5lbGRWT?
PB answer: It depends.
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Originally Posted By: teehjaeh57
All fish stocked were assumed pellet trained, maybe 10% were questionable. I'm open to any feedback/guidance on how to improve the condition of the fish. My goals are to achieve an average of 130-150 per fish. I figured if you provided enough forage fish would respond. I'm missing something here...so much for the "trophy" fishery!


How many weeds are in the pond? Could they be expending calories by chasing but not catching forage?

BG in my pond don't hit pellets. Maybe it's the LMB, maybe it's because they have natural forage? The YP DO hit the pellets and I haven't caught any in a few months due to water temps. Maybe they aren't as pellet trained as you assumed?

I'm curious about the same quentions that Tony asked.


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No fish were culled, but I considered it.

Weeds are relegated to shallow margins - American Pondweed about 3-4' from shore. Chara exists, but doesn't seem too dense, and water has only about 30" visibility so I don't think it's growing deep.

All fish were kept in cages for at least 6 months and pellet fed. Only stocked fish which were obviously eating pellets [decent body condition] and Bruce and I went through the BG 3x before selecting top fish we had confidence in [and were verified Males].

FHM are swimming in open water pecking pellets in dense schools. They are easy picking totally oblivious to anything but the pellets. For a long time I figured the YP and BG made a living on the FHM and thought their body condition would reflect that. Not so much.

.4 acre average depth of 7' - 243 fish shouldn't serve as a carrying capacity issue. I'm stumped, and hoping for some corrective strategy.


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This might be a "nave" look at it, but could it be that the ones you are catching are the hungriest, thus they are the ones that are the worst WR? Others might be in there that are huge but just to full on natural forage to bother going after your bait? The ones you are catching are not stunted so they still wouldn't want artificial feed but will go after your bait?

Other types of fish surveys available to verify?

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Originally Posted By: sprkplug
Did you open up any of the fish and see what they were eating? Just curious as to what they preferred. (forage or pellets)

I'm grasping here, but if they went off pellets in favor of forage, wouldn't the net gain to the fish be far less, as per Optimal Forage Theory?


Optimal Forage Theory

I keep learning. I knew this occurred naturally, but I never knew what it was called.


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TJ, It shouldn't be diet, since you've got a diverse forage base, so I'll throw 2 things out there.

Water? I'm sure you've got good water, so that shouldn't be an issue.

Competition? I know BG and LMB are different, but I've noticed a change in feeding habits since I started feeding GSF to my LMB. The biggest LMB have started to only feed 2 or 3 times a week, instead of daily. I'm wondering if the availability of a consistent easy meal changes their natural habits? The smaller LMB, continue to show up daily.

My CNBG, which I feed on a schedule similar to yours, exhibit some of the same traits as the LMB. The midsized CNBG will eat any sized pellet, and gorge until they're satiated. The larger CNBG will pick through the pellets and only eat what they want. I'm thinking about reducing the number of throws, and increasing the throw times. Maybe competition for food will cause them to eat more.

Just throwing darts at this.

Last edited by FireIsHot; 09/02/14 06:19 AM.

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TJ - as always very thought provoking stuff. How does the WR of these guys compare to the same fish out of your larger pond? Water quality, same feed (although different abundance), different predator-prey balance, different vegetation - all variables. The other thing I found interesting was that you are seeing concave bellies but they are heavier than weight-length numbers that you got from BG.com and the PB article. I pulled the estimator from PA Fish Commission and this seems to portray your fish as being heavier too. Weight-Length Estimator
Did you verify scale accuracy?

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Maybe they are lonely and despondent, lacking opposite sex interaction. I know I would be if I were a fish in that pond. grin


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Originally Posted By: fish n chips
This might be a "nave" look at it, but could it be that the ones you are catching are the hungriest, thus they are the ones that are the worst WR? Others might be in there that are huge but just to full on natural forage to bother going after your bait? The ones you are catching are not stunted so they still wouldn't want artificial feed but will go after your bait?

Other types of fish surveys available to verify?



Fish, that's good insight. I was catching BG on a mini crankbait for a while, and thought I'd be better served using a pellet imitation for just the reason you offer. I know only pellet trained fish will take a pellet imitation, and those are the fish I really want to sample. It was too windy for pellet fishing, so I went with crawler nub on a #8 barbless baitholder and little shot about 30" up. I think in order to eliminate fish that aren't on pellets I need to fish exclusively with stubby steves or my homemade pellet flies.


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Originally Posted By: Victor
TJ - as always very thought provoking stuff. How does the WR of these guys compare to the same fish out of your larger pond? Water quality, same feed (although different abundance), different predator-prey balance, different vegetation - all variables. The other thing I found interesting was that you are seeing concave bellies but they are heavier than weight-length numbers that you got from BG.com and the PB article. I pulled the estimator from PA Fish Commission and this seems to portray your fish as being heavier too. Weight-Length Estimator
Did you verify scale accuracy?



Totally different parameters from big pond fish - single sex, zero predators, abundant forage and pellets, etc.

The concave stomachs have me stumped as not one BG I sampled was below 100 WR, but they didn't look right, still. Frankly a 125 fish I would envision as much thicker and robust.

Yes, brand new digital gram/ounce scale and was tested.


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Originally Posted By: sprkplug
Did you open up any of the fish and see what they were eating? Just curious as to what they preferred. (forage or pellets)

I'm grasping here, but if they went off pellets in favor of forage, wouldn't the net gain to the fish be far less, as per Optimal Forage Theory?


Makes some sense here I agree, but since pellet program has have never abated except during winter it's hard for me to believe they are chasing shrimp or FHM over a floating defenseless cheeseburger.

Don't forget the YP...the WRs are so low considering the variety and density of forage - I was very surprised at their poor performance.


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If the goal truly is gigantic fish, maybe slower but steady is the key? Seems those fish that feed on pellets to engorgement every day do balloon out early but die younger. It may take longer with natural feed but you may grow some real monsters in the end... My all male BG never take pellets. Like your pond, the natural forage is too plentiful. Only my HSB, albino CC and forage fish(FHM, BNM, shiners, etc) take the pellets. Even my all male GSF refuse pellets.

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Originally Posted By: teehjaeh57

it's hard for me to believe they are chasing shrimp or FHM over a floating defenseless cheeseburger.


Sometimes its about the instinct that they just need to chase.... Look at a dog, if it runs they case, when the prey stops they aren't nearly as interested. Add in the fact that when others are interested in chasing the same thing, competition factor kicks in and it becomes more intensified.

I'd be curious to see what you catch with FHM as bait.

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At this point I agree with fish n Chips, I think your sampling was biased especially for the YP. Fattest fish are not biting.

Last edited by Bill Cody; 09/03/14 07:02 AM.

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Originally Posted By: fish n chips



Sometimes its about the instinct that they just need to chase.... Look at a dog, if it runs they case, when the prey stops they aren't nearly as interested. Add in the fact that when others are interested in chasing the same thing, competition factor kicks in and it becomes more intensified.



I have been giving this very subject a lot of thought over the summer. I think there may be growth potential available by exploiting the competition angle, somehow. I've watched schools of BG cruise right by pellets available on the surface, just to run with the school to where the next handful hits the water. Like they're afraid they will miss out on something if they don't. I suppose that could be a survival mechanism, safety in numbers, but I can't say for sure.

I also believe that feeding fewer pellets at a time, spread out over a few minutes, might promote better feeding activity for the same reason. From my observations, it almost seems that perceived quantity of food available (less), drives the fish to feed more aggressively.


"Forget pounds and ounces, I'm figuring displacement!"

If we accept that: MBG(+)FGSF(=)HBG(F1)
And we surmise that: BG(>)HBG(F1) while GSF(<)HBG(F1)
Would it hold true that: HBG(F1)(+)AM500(x)q.d.(=)1.5lbGRWT?
PB answer: It depends.
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Originally Posted By: CJBS2003
If the goal truly is gigantic fish, maybe slower but steady is the key? Seems those fish that feed on pellets to engorgement every day do balloon out early but die younger. It may take longer with natural feed but you may grow some real monsters in the end... My all male BG never take pellets. Like your pond, the natural forage is too plentiful. Only my HSB, albino CC and forage fish(FHM, BNM, shiners, etc) take the pellets. Even my all male GSF refuse pellets.


Thanks for the feedback, T. Have you performed any WR measurements lately on those BG? Does anyone else out there see the concave belly to which I'm referring?


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Originally Posted By: Bill Cody
At this point I agree with fish n Chips, I think your sampling was biased especially for the YP. Fattest fish are not biting.


Well Fish and Cody - that's definitely a positive spin to put on this scenario and I hope it's part of the issue.

I will fish with only pellets soon and see if my results vary. Will report again soon.


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My primary reason for posting this report was to share my experiences with the low WR of the BG and YP. This surprised me considering they were pellet trained and have abundant natural forage and pellets available to them. It suggests there exist additional variables influencing health/growth rate of fish than just forage availability and water quality. Thank you for working with me to try and determine these other factors.

I still find it hard to believe a female YP stocked in a pond for 3 months with 10,000's of FHM would register 77 WR. I would have predicted that fish to be pushing 125+.


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Originally Posted By: sprkplug
Originally Posted By: fish n chips



Sometimes its about the instinct that they just need to chase.... Look at a dog, if it runs they case, when the prey stops they aren't nearly as interested. Add in the fact that when others are interested in chasing the same thing, competition factor kicks in and it becomes more intensified.



I have been giving this very subject a lot of thought over the summer. I think there may be growth potential available by exploiting the competition angle, somehow. I've watched schools of BG cruise right by pellets available on the surface, just to run with the school to where the next handful hits the water. Like they're afraid they will miss out on something if they don't. I suppose that could be a survival mechanism, safety in numbers, but I can't say for sure.

I also believe that feeding fewer pellets at a time, spread out over a few minutes, might promote better feeding activity for the same reason. From my observations, it almost seems that perceived quantity of food available (less), drives the fish to feed more aggressively.


I've witnessed this with multiple fish species at my ponds, Tony, and have to agree your assessment warrants merit. These are the granular details that are so much fun to discover, but rather maddening while trying to achieve goals, too! I love working through them with you guys though...but can't anything be simple?? crazy


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TJ, I've been creating this pond for my girls to fish so no fishing, all observation so far. I may do a little sampling in the fall to see how they're progressing and report back then.

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I would trap some minnows and poke them with some holes and drop them back in so they swim on their sides. We do this just to see the perch come up to feed now that they have turned off the feeder and really going to the minnows. We do this through the ice in the winter like a bird feeder. Same hole same great fishing spot all winter.

Our perch didn't really leave the feeder till after the spring spawn and the average fish was over 10"s. Last year when they were smaller they stayed on the feed longer.

The perch that we have been catching and eating from out pond had only a snail or two and some minnow back bones in them and of course, rolls of fat. Only one had pellets. I expect after the fist cold rain we get here, till mid October, that they will go back on the feeder for the winter.

Cheers Don.


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Originally Posted By: teehjaeh57
Originally Posted By: Bill Cody
At this point I agree with fish n Chips, I think your sampling was biased especially for the YP. Fattest fish are not biting.


Well Fish and Cody - that's definitely a positive spin to put on this scenario and I hope it's part of the issue.

I will fish with only pellets soon and see if my results vary. Will report again soon.


What about sampling using a fish trap instead of fishing? Switch up the sampling method a little?

Also, I was only 95% joking with the "lonely and despondent" reply. Have any studies been done on the growth rate of single sex fish compared to mixed sex? Could this change the fish drive to eat levels? I have no clue. Just asking.

Going to be in your great state of Nebraska next week at "Husker Harvest Days". Big 3 day farm show.

Last edited by snrub; 09/04/14 09:20 AM.

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