Pond Boss Forums GENERAL QUESTIONS Water chemistry Ken's hatchery Recommendations

Deb or Ken, I asked similiar questions before but never got an answer. I'll try again. EX. 1 acre pond in Georgia and want to increase production and have 8 ppm hardness/alkalinity what specifically would you recommend? What products and how much? What do you feel is desired hardness and alkalinity level in this situation? thank you for your time

Is this the Ken HolyYoke down in Tifton?? At least I hope not....

Hey Greg! I think the problem in communication rests in the way we test. I will try to paste a copy of our water test to this link, but it might not come through. Also I am not back at the lab, so excuse any spelling errors I may have in the chemical names.

Let’s take your example of a 1 acre pond:
When a customer brings in a water sample, we measure out specific amounts of water for each individual test. I am not in the lab, but I will guess at close to a quarter of a shot glass for hardness and alkalinity. Then we do the following test
Hardness: a) Add 3 drops bufferin solution
b) Add two drops on Manver Hardness
c) Add Titrent solution drop by drop until the water turns red
to blue. We then multiply that number by 17.

Alkalinity: a) Add 1 drop of Phenophthale solution (1%)
b) Add 1 small packet of Bromcresol Green-Methyl Red Indicator
c) Add Sulfuric acid drop by drop until the water turns green
to red. We then multiply that number by 17.

Using this equation, not yours, we like to see water quality above 120 (this might relate to your equations as 7ppm, I am not sure). We raise quality with Cal-plus (calcium) and Bufferin (sodium bi-carbonate). We have found that every pond is different (some absorb chemicals into the soil as you know), but on average this works well for us. Now recommendations should vary with drastic depth changes, but in a standard situation 5 of the 50 lb bags of each will raise quality from 0-51 (mind you that is using our equations not yours). Hardness and Alkalinity need to be equal!
I hope we can go about all of this in a peaceful manner as I am ready and eager to learn what works for you. Ken has been out of college for a few decades, and I for almost 12 years, so any help you could offer would be appreciated. This is just what has worked for us and our ponds.

Any suggestions without slamming me !

Deb

No slam and thank you for the detailed answer. I have seen the water quality sheet and reason for my questions/explanations. We run a very similar test. Most folks agree hardness and alkalnity levels should be above 20 ppm. I think this is the same as what you want to be above 120 ppm. If not then how in the world can we compare? So why so high?

Ok, so you suggest the 5 bags to raise 0-51 so if you want 120 from most ponds in GA starting at 10 or less you need to add 10 bags about right? This is (old price list) $120 for CalPlus (hydrated lime, right) and $150 for bufferin or $270 plus shipping for 1 acre pond in example. This is not too bad but how long will it last will normal rainfall/excahnge rate?

Hey Deb you have been very honest so far so I expect another one. I hope folks are reading this, many times stick to quesions thread. thanks for your time and hope you understand my concern with these products.

Hey there! We are not using parts per million in our equation, and I think that is the confusing part. We just use a round "layman" figure which actually seems very comparable to yours. And Lord have mercy no that is not the right price. Our calcium is only $12.95 per 50 lb bag (reducing to $11.00 over 10 bags), our bufferin is only $15.95 per 50 lb bag (reducing to $13.50 over 10 bags), and our lime (which I believe you are confusing with the calcium) is only $10.00 for a 50 lb bag. We use this to raise pH, and with it being slack and not ag., we only recommend 25 lbs per acre per week to raise .5 on the scale each time.
I kinda think we are on the same page (or at least the same library ) but are circling around it. Tell me how you all measure and fix things please. Given time any chemical is going to have to be replaced due to rain/drought. Have you found a way not to have to do this?

Deb

Off the subject, I know the baby thing is still new, but has it sunk in that they might all have taken root. Take a pillow with you to the doctor's office and place it on the floor behind you when ya'll go in for the first sonogram. I don't even now you but am terribly excited. It brings back memories. And by the way I meant what I said about non-fish questions and discussions. I will even give you my private email or home number. God bless you, your wife, and the new life that you have NO CLUE what you are getting in to. If you go after fatherhood with the tenacity that you have posted here, your gonna be great.

Being read Greg, good stuff

I just can't buy Kens ideas. To do so flies in the face of every aquatic Biologist I have talked to or read from. Also my own personal experience.

Biologists in most Southeastern States recommend 500 BG per acre at initial stocking time. Others recommend 1,000. The difference is in the waiting time to stock predators. I'm not a Pro but have certainly lost a lot of fish from fertilization and thus overstocking with a resulting DO crash. Of course, I'm in an area of low rainfall where one acre can become 2/3 acre in a hurry. That's reality in my part of the world and overstocking can be unintentionable but still fatal. I've initially stocked several new ponds with a seine. I've also killed my share of fish by either neglect or "experimenting" with over stocking.

We also try to keep our predator load at about 100 lbs. per acre. That seems to work; sometimes too well. If I wanted to catch a bunch of bass and catfish, I would overstock. Those starving fish would be easy to catch.

Starting off with pond dye sounds questionable. There is a cycle of life in the "normal" body of water. It begins with plankton that is started by light entering the water and ends with whatever is the top of the food chain. We have all seen the pictures. Assuming that all fry would feed in the top of the water means some fish would have to adapt differently (RES). Actually it seems to say that all fish would have to become topwater feeders. Maybe I'm wrong here. As stated, I'm not a Pro; just a pond junkie.

Nothing wrong with a bug zapper. Others have reported getting favorable results with them but they won't feed the masses.

I'll take Bill Duggans word about the growth rates of the GG. Evidently, Ken has developed a faster growing fish and deserves a lot of credit. I believe I would only use them to supplement BG so I would have a continued forage base.

I understand how some of the stuff works that Ken recommends. It's a different balancing act that I think very few hobbyists could make work on an ongoing basis. Count me in the "Oh Ye, of little faith crowd".

Deb, ok you are right we are going in circles. It is not my equation it is the standard way by most everyone in the pond industry. I use the same method to get the alkalinty and hardness, excpet I use a more expensive digitial titrator and can read direct results directly or use a calcualtion to get true ppm (or mg/l) Total Hardness. The formula you are using is based on the same thing, if not why do you come up with a completely differnt chart than anyone to send out to clients with the water quality report. They ssume it is total hardness and recommmend 120 when eveyrone else recommends 20ppm.

This makes me (and others in the know)wary when I see this so if it is different look into the calcualtion and see what you recommend for total hardness not some equation diff than everyone else.

On my example I did use the right price just went ahead and did the math 10 bags x $12.95, for 1 acre pond to raise to 120, get it.

Ok, on to major difference in opinion yes I did not figure out way to get around the rain dilution, it was taught in class. It is called agricultural lime. When done properly at 4 tons/acre you can get 4-6 years without having to add other chemicals to raise the level to above recommend level of 20 ppm. However the water quality test suggest to the client not to use ag lime b/c it slow reacting. Correct it is but also slow to be reomved from the pond. Can you see my point and why I get upset when I see the water test? It suggest products that will raise the alkalinity to really high levels but only for a short period of time then guess what they have to buy more. If it is a 0.25 acre pond maybe not a bad idea but with a 2-5 acre pond will cost $1,000's and have clients spend that with you only to have poor water quality when I test the water. Thanks again for your answers.

Greg, do you use a Hach Digital titrator?

I would have to try Ken's formula exactly before condemning it out of hand.

It appears that Ken's method is "brute force", as opposed to the balanced method that's favored by biologists. I liken it to harvesting wild wheat vs. a modern wheat farm. Both have their advantages and disadvantages. Modern wheat farms require high maintenance with massive equipment, chemicals, and expensive improved seed planted every year.

As we know, many experts rail against massive monoculture for raising wheat, but there's no question that a modern farm produces more.

That said, I think I prefer balance. It's obviously less expensive and more carefree for the casual ponder. The brute force method is obviously more expensive, but the rewards are great. Big, agressive bream that grow fast and bite hard in huge numbers are certainly tempting, but I also like variety.

Ross you got it right hach digitial titrator is the best method I've found for field accuracy since most of the time we are talking about 15 ppm or less. If you are in places where it is 100 ppm or more no reason for extra expense.

Greg,
You make a very valid point, and are out of my field on this. Biology and chemistry are two totally different subjects that work together. Chemistry was never my strong point, so if I tried to further my point right now it would be purely guessing. I have never questioned the methods we use (glad I joined the forum), so if you don't mind I will take a little time to research what you have said against others and our own. I am not admitting defeat , but I currently don't feel comfortable defending this. Is it ok if I pick this up later? Thanks.
As for the price conflict I "get it" as you so eloquently put it. In fact I got it right after I posted and reread.

Thanks for asking these questions and opening me up to a possible change. Get back to you later!

Deb

Greg,
Forgot to ask you a question. Since you are in the pond management field I hope you can help me with this one. I know it is all but impossible to test for dissolved oxygen from a test that is brought into the lab (versus done in the field)due to movement and displacement, but does the same hold true for the hardness and alkalinity. If we are testing in ppm, can that # change if not tested in the field? The reason I ask is because all of our testing is done in our lab from a test that is either brought or mailed in. I wonder if that could be the reason for the difference in techniques? Just pondering!

Deb

Bobad, I put on a disclaimer saying I'm not a Pro.

However, your likeness to brute force is pretty apt and I don't think brute force works in nature. Maybe temporarily but only temporarily. I've tried it and never won.

WARNING! This is going to get wordy. I liken a body of water with fish to a pasture full of cows. The grass is the forage and the cows are the predators. I have always found that the best cattlemen are actually grass farmers. Take care of the forage and the cows will take care of you. You can do rotational grazing of the forage and come out pretty well as long as you don't overstock and thus overgraze. Then the sun bakes the barren ground and no grass grows for years. Not much recovery for quite a while. Or you can plow up the native grasses, plant improved grasses and fertilize. Every year you have to increase the fertilization until you hit the point where nothing grows without heavy fertilization. Let a drought hit and you will be feeding hay. Since droughts hit areas and not individual properties, hay gets pretty expensive and the price of cattle drops. Then your pasture/environment is ruined and you are losing money. I think the original idea of managing resources and not using brute force to improve productivity is the best way to do things.

Like you, I believe in a managed, balanced pond. However, I think the great rewards from brute force are only temporary and may or may not materialize. Mother Nature always balances the scales and corrects our attempts to brute force anything environmental.

But then, I'm not a Pro. Just my opinion; but I have no faith in overstocking of any forms of life. Or maybe I should say that I no longer try to force feed nature. The penalties always seem to out weigh the benefits.

Dave i'm confused are catfish grass or cows

Bill, some might consider them forage for humans but my Grandkids have named mine. Now they are neither.

LOL, little Ava got a Scooby Doo rod and reel for her two month birthday

Dave,

You are so right! I don't claim to be even a good cattleman, let alone best, but recognize the absolute truth in your words and the applicability of the analogy to ponds.

Deb thanks again for responding and get to later no problem. I agree about DO but do not think alkalinity or hardness will change. We are using the same techniuqe but instead of dropper I'm using a digitial titrator so do not need to mutiply by 17. No big difference really just a little more accurate. Not sure we can get this figured out or not.

However maybe answer the comments about ag lime, does the water report say somehting about not using it, if so why? I will be out in south TX until Sunday and will check this if possible.

Hey Duggan, I have been expecting you to post a picture with her and her first fishin pole. HINT!

Alkalinity and total hardness are relatively stable parameters and do not normally fluxuate significantly in a few days when in a sample bottle. Samples with high amounts of algae can cause a shift in the forms of alkalinity from bicarbonate to carbonate and from carbonate to hydroxide. During these changes the total alkalinity remains constant; however the pH can change (source: Chemistry for Sanitary Engineers).

Greg, I too have found it to be pretty accurate when compared to samples processed by the company lab. In my line of work I deal with huge variance in hardness & alkalinity levels. I just carry 2 different cartridge strengths for testing the variety. Cuts down on the cost and the time when I'm running alot of samples.

Hey Greg! Your question is still in regards to our water testing and the chemical components/recommendations. Give me time to research please. I know we do not recommend the ag lime, but as I stated to you before I do not feel comfortable without further research. I did read over our water test directions last night, and I discovered that we test in gpg (grains per gallon) instead of ppm. So our testing methods are different from yours. I am more than sure your methods are more accurate, but we can't travel to a different state everyday to test straight from the pond. My real concern with someone's water quality (when fish are dying) is ammonia and pH levels. But again let me remind you that I am still in the research part of this so give me some time.

By the way, I asked this question on another thread but would like to hear from you also. Why fertilize a pond? Please don't answer me like you did before with what you learned in school... I am curious about your field experience. No offense about the school thing (been there - done that), but times and teachings change. Remember that for decades people believed the earth was flat because that was what they were taught. Also doctor's go to school for years, then intern, then residency, yet they "practice" medicine until they retire (in other words they continue to learn and adapt). One week they tell you cheese causes cancer, and the next week they will say it is the best thing for preventing heart disease (unfounded analogy). That is because life is in constant change, and we have to change with it. I am not saying anyone here has to change (I'm kinda playing devil's advocate), but let's all entertain the thought. You know what I am saying.

Anyway, tell me about what you do!

Deb

0.058419 grains per US gallon = 1 ppm

Just multiply G/Gal x 0.05419 to get ppm total hardness.

SO...if I have 100 ppm x 0.058419 = 5.84 ppm

Thank you Matt! Now I will attempt to compare testing methods. This forum is a great teaching tool!

Deb