Pond Boss Forums INTRO Questions & Observations The chasm that lies between.

Between the collective PondBoss forum's idea of pond management, vs. the state's idea for same, that is.

Earlier this evening I attended a pond management seminar given by the Indiana Dept. of Natural Resources. I should probably 'fess up and admit that I wasn't there because I had questions or concerns about my pond, but rather to (1),see what issues the general pond-owning public was concerned about, and (2), see what management strategy the state recommended to address those concerns. Simple curiosity was my sole motivational factor.

The program kicked off the evening by stressing the importance of setting goals, and having a plan to help attain those goals. Good stuff, and the foundation for much of the advice given here on the forum. Unfortunately, this was the only thing discussed that I could really get behind and support.

It soon became apparent to me that the state biologist conducting the seminar would be preaching the gospel of balance. And while this is certainly one approach to pond management, I don't believe that it's always necessary to worship at the Altar of Equalibrium in order to meet one's goals while still avoiding the apocalyptic end-of-pond-days scenario that was foretold this evening.

To be fair, I have no way of knowing rather or not the biologist was expressing her own views, or relating the doctrine practiced and recommended by the state. And, trying to condense a subject as complex and multilayered as pond management into an hour and a half timeframe, is just ridiculous. Still, I would've liked to seen a little more out-of-the-box strategies presented.

Examples: Aeration was not recommended. Too much risk due to increased weed growth, leading to probable fish kills later in summer.

Supplemental feeding was HIGHLY discouraged. Again, excessive waste contributing to an explosion of vegetation and the requisite fishkill was given as the reason.

Stocking strategy revolved around the typical, LMB, BG, and CC scenario. I did ask about HSB, WE, and of course HBG in a pond setting, after first stating my opinion that taking a more hands-on, involved approach with a pond might open the door for additional options. But it was pretty obvious that the plan was to build a pond, stock it with bass, bluegills, and catfish, and apply diquat and/or glyphosate once in awhile.

That's it. That's all there is to it, supposedly. At least that's the message I came away with. I would've liked to polled those in attendance to find out what they wanted, and expected out of their ponds. Perhaps this is what most folks want. Dig it, stock it, forget it. But I have a hard time believing that.

So what about the private sector where pond management is concerned? To which side does it lean? PondBoss methodology, or state tactics?

Even here within the PBF community, there is a wide divergence of the amount of management a pond will get. We have people here that are on the cutting edge and will do almost anything to meet their goals, all the way to close to what your state recommends.

I consider myself a novice that is somewhere in the middle of the pack as far as what lengths I will go to as far as management practices.

Of course I've completed a forage pond earlier this spring and just completed a quarter acre sediment pond so maybe I am starting to lean towards the deep end.

Why would you expect anything better from a government agency?

As with most everything I do.. I research the crap out of it then beat it to death in my head with questions then implement a plan I construe based on what I've taught myself from planning, rarely can u get answer for anything through a state agency pretty much that simple.. lol

Aeration and supplemental feeding are discouraged in my state as well. Same with all those "other" species of fish....

I ran into the same thing here about 3 years ago. A well known TAMU Prof was speaking about 50 miles West of Fort Worth. A local landowner and old friend asked if I would attend with him. The Prof blasted tilapia and warned about the mess they created when they died in the Fall. I don't think the guy understands anything more than BG, LMB and CC. And, he is still teaching.

Gotta admit though. I'm pretty much a believer in balance across all of the factors.

I think it all starts on the very simple end, like the state tactics. In general, people want to just be led, or keep it simple type of thing. Most can't handle anything more. I am sure people come into your shop and will ask a question that you know if you answer it with all the details needed, their eyes glaze over and won't get it, and actually won't end up doing the right thing unless it is in the simplest of forms of yes/no that they can understand. Sometimes being a good leader is knowing when to keep it simple for those following.

I would think that if the majority of us would go back to that very first notion of owning/building/managing a pond, it came with a thought of "how hard can it be?", and "just want a pond with fish in it". Then, you start learning..... some are ok with the simplest scenarios, and some take it to the cutting edge, but we all have to start with baby steps.

This is where PONDBOSS excels. It helps people with the simple notions, gives options for those that want to learn more, and has created a few individuals that are changing how pond management will be done in the future.

I guess what surprised me the most, was what I perceived to be an definitive hesitation in even acknowledging that other scenarios are possible. Sure, once you leave the confines of the "box" you may need to up your game somewhat, but it's still attainable and workable if the efforts are put forth.

At a minimum I had hoped there would be options presented, not just one side of the story suggested as the best course of action all around. And to add once again, she WAS severely constrained by the time frame....maybe all she could do was offer up the basic plan.

But to dismiss aeration, supplemental feeding, and all species not considered traditional for pond stocking during the same hour and a half program was a lot to try and swallow.

I would've liked to hear another viewpoint address some of the negative issues that were given as reasons as to why one should follow state recommendations for private pond management.

The set it and forget it crowd drive me nuts... I am passionate about many things I do or as my wife would say, CRAZY... Ponds are no different, some people are passionate and others are just like, hey look a pond...

Just the other night I was standing on the walk bridge at the park just down the road while my oldest was at piano lessons.. My wife's boss rides up on his bike and ask what I was doing... Still thinking he regrets that question...LOL

Amazing how most of us here look at things compared to others, for me its not about the money or just having something... It's about the journey of making it better and knowing I was part that.. If I could just make it happen faster now!!!

Sprkplug, I have come to the personal conclusion that the vast majority of state biologists, and especially enforcement agents have almost NO "real world" knowledge of their chosen professions. Far too many simply read what others in the field before them say and accept it as proven fact that can never vary. Those "other" species issues are a prime example, one I am intimately involved in now!

The fact that a biologist would make a blanket discouragement of aeration, stating it will increase plant growth and potentially cause a die off (DO crash presumably?)late in summer would instantly make me feel the person teaching, is either very ignorant, stupid, in denial, uninformed, or all of the above.

It is sad that so many states rely on people that are not qualified, are ideologically motivated, and/or deny "real world" situations and repeated examples that refute old theories and improve the very environments those employees are there to help. Some states are blessed to have people in decision making positions that truly do have passion for their jobs, AND, they stay abreast of and even promote the latest discoveries that improve important aspects of their tasked job concerns.

There is a reason for the saying...Those that CAN, DO while those that can't, teach! perhaps it should be, those that can, do, AND teach! I'm with you Dave, on the balanced approach stratagies. Soaking up all the knowledge on alternative goals/methods only helps to increase my ability to find those balances faster, and better when a customer wants something "new".

"...at the Altar of Equalibrium..."

Say, isn't that bar in Budokan???

I think I got hammered there once....

Somehow, I knew Sunil would approve the instant I typed that part.

Although I really believe in balance, I now realize that balance can be a very slippery slope and is a never ending battle. That balance depends on my goals, cash, time, nature(rain), and breaks of the game.

And, as I have learned here, over the years, geography also is a huge variable. What I know usually works here isn't even close in other areas of the country. An Auburn or TAMU trained Biologist would have to unlearn and relearn an astounding amount of "stuff" to be effective elsewhere. And, some people don't really progress from the University. It is my PERSONAL belief that the members of this site have often exceeded the University types/stereotypes. The best of the bunch was Dave Willis. He often responded "We just don't know".

Without experimentation, we don't get anywhere. A couple of points: I remember a younger Condello, quite a few years ago, being told that he probably couldn't grow monster redears in his area. He responded that he just might be the guy to prove that wrong. He did. Meadowlark was told that tiapia would ruin a pond. He was just stubborn enough to experiment and prove that wrong. Quite a few years ago, a lot of people on this site were trying to grow 10 inch BG. George, Meadowlark and I had already done it. Mine was an accident while trying to grow big enough BG to feed big bass. Bobby Rice is stocking saltwater fish in fresh water ponds. Nate believes that he can grow the worlds record bass in the midwest. And, he just might. And the list goes on. Some guys just aren't going to fail.

I, on the other hand, have killed millions of fish when I started questioning "I wonder what would happen if?". Maybe someday I'll hit it right on some of my wild ideas.

Make it happen at your own realistic speed, because that's the only one ya got!

The LMB, BG, and CC is the common stocking plan for most ponds around here and very few people feed the fish. That mixture is probably the best combination for someone who just wants some fish and doesn't want to spend much tome or money managing a pond. Stocked with the right combination from the beginning, those ponds tend to stay in relative balance for several years. The few who do feed buy floating catfish food from Rural King or TSC but no Purina dealer withing 30 miles stocks Aquamax because no one will buy it.

I think the term "balanced" probably means different things to different folks, when used in a pond context. I have a hard time accepting that the typical, balanced scenario of LMB, BG, and CC can exist without intervention on the part of the pondowner, at least not for any great length of time.

It may appear balanced, but I would be willing to bet that conditions have changed in a manner that favors one species over another, even if the change is not instantly apparent on the surface.

I totally agree with you.. a pond left to natures balance is very "off balance" by most of our definitions.... anytime you adjust the pond in any way, addition of water, food, structure, removal of fish, we have changed the balance, thus tipping the scale toward bigger, bass, bigger BG, ect..

a balanced pond is the last thing I want!

Agree; the best years of a "self sustaining" pond are the first 2. After that, it is observing, culling and managing the environment and the fish. I've never kept a log but I should.

Hi Guys, this one made me think and I look on a internet search for US ponds and finally found a 2006 survey that estimated Texas ponds at 1 million. Well if one is conservative and cuts the number in half for the rest of the US and leave out AK and a couple of NE us states with more extreme weather. it one could say safely and very conservatively there might be 20 to 30 million ponds in the US. Even at a tenth of that number for conversation sake the number might be as low as 2 to 3 million would give one the idea that there are a LOT of BOW owners that are no where near a PB'er in their mind set of Pond Management.
11,972 PB'ers are just a drop in the bucket of pond owners even on the very low side of the above estimates.

That said I have always felt since I started asking questions on PB forum that this group is unique in the approach to pond management. unique in that most here view, like I think I do, that balance is OK as long as it is informed,enhanced,and knowledgeable more than most. Knowledgeable all the way up too the biologist and other professionals that help us lay folks understand as best we can, what we are doing and trying to understand before we make too many really bad mistakes if we will listen.

I think that the State folks and others that teach cannot for many reasons, not delve out too far past the standards set in their respective areas of said expertise. As an example the SRAC info I have read 100's of by now, do not ever explain or even suggest many of the ideas and options that are offered by PB'ers.

Nature of the different beasts I guess but I respect their way enough to do like sprkplug and listen but realize that the Pond/Lake world is bigger than their box and really my very slightly larger box that is much smaller than most others on this site.

That is one great thing that the internet with all it's issues have given me,a chance to grow my skill-sets in several areas(mainly ponds) I would have had to take the slow path on via,library, school classes and seminars etc. in the past.

In Short guys thanks for making my pond a better pond with possible goals that I may very well reach without too much death and destruction of aquatic life. We shall see.

This week alone I've talked to 3 different people that want to build ponds.

1 wants a natrual swimming pond, and with the existing wetland on the property, I think it can be done. Minimal fish - no interest in fishing.

1 wants a pond where his young son can go out and catch fish, but want a pretty "hands off" approach to the pond.

1 wanted a LMB/BG/CC pond but when I asked if he knew that other fish could be used too or in place of those, his eyes lit up.

Wide variance in the goals of the future pond owners!

Sorry to interrupt but do u have to donate to start a fourm?

If you want to start a thread for a question of your own, go to the top of the page and look for the "topic Options". Click on that and it will give you a drop down menu for "New Topic". No money needed to ask questions here, although donations are what keeps the site viable.

Now if you want to start a "new forum", there are a lot of internet companies out there that will help you, and you probably will have to donate a lot to their wallets.

Spark, wouldn't it be nice if all the people out there giving basic info would know about PondBoss, and then say "if you want more info that I can provide here, or you have a special idea, go to PondBoss.com to find out more."

I suppose no "agency" could provide such info because it may violate some type of rules.

I'm sure you are aware of the limitations, but several governmental agencies take a dim view of disturbing designated wetlands. Tread carefully.

One thing is for sure. Once you break your cherry, so to speak, with Pond Boss, there's no going back, really.

These state biologist have years of experience dealing with pond owners who are mostly all Pre-Pond Boss, or no Pond Boss.

Heck, the knowledge most of us get here easily equates to an associate or maybe even a bachelors degree in fisheries.

Not defending the state biologists in any way.

But just remember how you were maybe like a mushroom before you found Pond Boss. You know, in the dark and fed sh*t.