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Cripes aetain, you're getting some great info on here. Daphnia will show up. CC's , if you like eating them (food hogs). But you will need a whole lot more fatheads even for half of the summer.

Get the fatheads in now. Give them a chance to breed. They won't be there long when the predators are introduced.

Personally, I'd go with walleyes instead of CC's. Just a fish choice on my side though.

Good luck to you and your pond (and remember its your pond) wink grin.

Last edited by hang_loose; 05/27/14 08:47 PM.
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Forget the cc. My bass setup is complete then thanks to esshup. All I need now is a cp setup. Anyone have ideas?

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1,000,000 CP per acre.

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Serious answers please...

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This quote below from CJ was from a prior thread you had started a while back:

Originally Posted By: CJBS2003
I'd stock BKF, FHM and GSH and around 10 CP.


Within that thread was also some good info. The CP discussion begins about half way down the page. I will include the link below because there are some folks who do have a hard time with the search feature within the site.


http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=334647&page=1

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I forgot about that. I cant find where to buy kilifish. How many #s of gsh and fhm. Also would yp be beneficial?

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Aetain, this is probably the friendliest forum I am a member of. The members continuing to help even when you've pretty much stated you're being rude is a testament to that. Pond management isn't just a set of numbers on a page.

BKF are pretty much not available commercially. Either one wild collects them, they get them from me or they contact one of the aquarium breeders that sell them for $$$$.

Last edited by CJBS2003; 05/28/14 10:33 AM.
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I'm not too sure the BKF would be very beneficial as productive forage for bass or CP. Forage for LMB and CP should be more sunfish-shiner oriented for bass and YP oriented for CP with maybe GSF or some other sunfish since the goal is not harvestable panfish. Do the homework for stocking numbers which will be based a lot on productivity of the pond. NJ soils may be sandy and conducive to lower natural production, thus expect lower standing stocks.


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The pond is in the catskills. Its all clay where I am so im fine with the soil. So I already have a bass setup, and for pickerel, here is what I think:

YP
GSH
CP
FHM
Papershell Crayfish

I just need numbers for those? Can anyone give me a set amount of numbers for the species I just listed? Also feel free to make any changes. Thank s

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In 1/2 ac put in now 4 to 5 lbs FHM, 3-4 lbs adult GSH, and 200YP (100 3"-4"; 100 4"-6", or any mix of sizes), 400-500 crayfish. Fall or next spring add 20CP. Then after 2 years and you still have common numbers of GSH and young 4"-6" YP add 10-14 CP. With this number of CP per acre do not expect them to get longer than 16"-20". To get bigger CP the total number should be around 8-14 per 0.5ac.

It would actually be better in the small 0.25-0.5 ac pond, to stock 3-6 each year until you get the numbers of CP to where the forage-YP-GSH balance appears acceptable. As you add CP you will see a decline in certain sizes of forage species, if you regularly monitor the entire forage fish community (all sizes FHM-GSH-YP). Lots of forage and numerous smaller thin bodied YP (4"-6"), then add a few more CP. Too few surviving harvestable YP (8"-12"), very few adult shiners, then remove some CP. You should be able to harvest in a natural clear water pond around 12-20 lb of YP/acre. FYI four 8" YP weigh about a pound. The quality of management determines the quality of the fishery.

The lake chubsucker as a supplemental forage fish would be a good fish to experiment with for producing either LMB or CP. The chubsucker would be a better forage fish compared to BKF because the LCS inhabits similar areas (bottom structures) as the predator (LMB-CP)compared to the surface dwelling BKF. If interested in harvestable panfish, I would not hesitate to add HBG in a CP-YP-GSH pond.


For good habitat use fallen timer and hardy hybrid water lilies. Large, long rock piles in shallow water will benefit production of crayfish. If you allow the pond to develop weed beds expect some recruitment of the CP which will make the average size of the CP smaller.

Last edited by Bill Cody; 05/28/14 08:56 PM.

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I have rush planted and gravel. So my final setup is
Bass: 50 lmb
30 yp
10# fhm
10# gsh
500 crayfish
800 bluegill
200 red ear sunfish
Fhm, crayfish, and gsh stocked in june while the rest are stocked next may

Pickerel: 5# fhm
4# adult gsh
200 yp (100 2-3"--100 4-6")
500 crayfish
20 cp
Fhm, crayfish, yp, gsh stocked in june while the rest are stocked next may

Bill,
1. could I get away stocking 20 cp and then not again because thell spawn?
2. Can I stock the cp at any size since I will have to catch them?
3. How many fish and what species will I have to harvest out of each setup of pond?

Any changes to the pond setups, please address them and thank you for your help.

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Also, could I use f1 bass in the catskills ny? And since my pond is .5 acres and 15 ft deep in the middle, do I need an aeration unit?

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Pickerel.
1. could I get away stocking 20 cp and then not again because thell spawn? INITIALLY I WOULD NOT DEPEND ON CP SPAWNING. IF THEY SPAWN THEN 'WORK THROUGH' THE RESULTING RECRUITMENT BASED ON HOW MANY SURVIVE TO 7" TO 10". GENERALLY THE LARGER THE STOCKER SIZES THE FEWER THAT ARE STOCKED.

2. Can I stock the cp at any size since I will have to catch them? IMO THE LARGER THE STOCKER CP THE FEWER THAT SHOULD BE STOCKED DUE TO THE AMOUNT OF LARGER SIZED FISH THAT EACH CP WILL EAT. I ASSUME YOUR GOAL IS LARGER SIZED CP OF 20"-28"? EXPECT EACH ONE OF THEM TO EAT 8-10 LBS OF FISH EACH YEAR. AN UNFERTILIZED, NON-PELLET FED POND WITH FAIRLY CLEAR WATER (4-6FT) WILL NOT GROW VERY MANY FORAGE FISH POUNDS PER 0.5 ACRE. IMO YOU DO NOT WANT A FOOD SHORTAGE TO OCCUR AND THE CP NOT TO GROW. THIS BECOMES MORE COMPLICATED IF THE CP ARE SPAWNING AND RECRUITING MORE CP INTO THE POND. TOO MANY PREDATORS OVEREATING THE FORAGE FISH IS NOT GOOD FISH MANAGEMENT.

3. How many fish and what species will I have to harvest out of each setup of pond? HARVEST RATE WILL BE DEPENDENT ON POND FERTILITY AND WHAT IT CAN PRODUCE IN TERMS OF FISH PONDS PER ACRE. A 0.5 AC CLEAR WATER POND IMO WILL NOT PRODUCE FOR HARVEST MORE THAN 2 LBS OF PREDATOR AND 10 LBS OF PANFISH PER 1/2 ACRE. IF THE CP AER NOT SPAWNING - RECRUITING THEIR HARVEST WILL BE A PUT & TAKE SITUATION. WITH WATER CLARITY OF 8-12FT THE HARVEST RATES WILL BE LESS DUE TO LESS PRIMARY PRODUCTIVITY. The 2 pounds of predator harvest may have to consist of CP 6"-10" long if CP are recruiting new predators each year. A similar situation will apply to LMbass. IMO ideally you want enough panfish to survive each year to replace what is harvested and still have enough panfish broodstock to provide the crop for next year. You determine this by regularly monitoring the numbers and sizes of intermediate sized panfish. Too few intermediates = too many predators. Too many intermediates with few adults = too few predators. It is a balancing act.

I would not use F1 bass in NY. If the fish balance is correct you can easily grow 3-4 lb northern bass in 3-5 yrs. In 10-12 yrs expect a well fed northern bass to be 6-8lbs; a very nice bass anywhere.

Last edited by Bill Cody; 05/29/14 11:23 AM.

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So should I use the bass or pickerel setup? If the pickerel, can I not resrock the pickerel but instead restock gsh and fhm? So I ahould harvest 2 lbs of lmb or pik each year?

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I cannot make the stocking choices for you. You have to weigh the pros and cons of each based on your ultimate goals and ability to manage the fishery. As noted earlier, harvest rate will depend on fertility which is usually determined by the monthly secchi disk readings (transparency) and general water hue or color. In my experiences, without very good, best type, frequent management, don't expect a lot of fish harvest from a 1/2 acre natural production pond; usually minimal at best and generally the fish harvested are very average to smaller sized.

Last edited by Bill Cody; 05/29/14 11:28 AM.

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Which setup do you think is better for recreational fishing personally?

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Since you you say you have a lot of money and you say you want a good pond for recreational fishing, I'd settle for nothing less than a pond of 2 acres or bigger, and 10 acres makes a lot more sense. You can't make a 1/2 acre pond into an ideal fishing pond in the sense that you would have a self-sustaining fishery....which is what Bill Cody is saying. Stocking apex predators in very small numbers and then catching the same stocked apex predators back out again is not recreational fishing according to most folks who usually fish in natural bodies of water.

Bill Cody says "A 0.5 AC CLEAR WATER POND IMO WILL NOT PRODUCE FOR HARVEST MORE THAN 2 LBS OF PREDATOR AND 10 LBS OF PANFISH PER 1/2 ACRE. IF THE CP AER NOT SPAWNING - RECRUITING THEIR HARVEST WILL BE A PUT & TAKE SITUATION"

Having your buddies over and breaking out the fishing poles to fish for a 2 pound predator is not on a parallel track with a goal of having a ideal fishing pond.

As many pond experts have taught me over the few months that I've tried to learn from this awesome forum, the best time spent is the time spent thinking of what your priorities are and then setting REALISTIC goals. If money is not the limiting factor then perhaps you would do better with a single larger pond or 2 larger ponds with the same breakout of apex predators that you describe above.

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The pond would have been bigger, but there is no room to put it. If I had to stick with a .5 acre pond, what would it be? My friend has a 1 acre pond with bass pickerel bluegill perch and it holds up fine. Should I get the lmb or cp?

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That's like asking if I should get the red one, or the blue one? It's completely a personal preference. Do what makes YOU happy. It's your pond.


"Forget pounds and ounces, I'm figuring displacement!"

If we accept that: MBG(+)FGSF(=)HBG(F1)
And we surmise that: BG(>)HBG(F1) while GSF(<)HBG(F1)
Would it hold true that: HBG(F1)(+)AM500(x)q.d.(=)1.5lbGRWT?
PB answer: It depends.
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A 0.5 ac will raise about 1/2 of what a 1 ac pond will raise - 50% less assuming the proper and same balance as the 1 acre example.


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Ok. My friend has 7 lb bass in his pond. Like 2 or 3. Would it be realistic if I had 3 or 4 pound bass?

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If your friend grows 7 lb bass, he might know the secret formula. I'd ask him his stocking ratios, and how many fish he removes per year vs how many new fish he is putting back in. Then if you do half that much you might be on to the secret recipe.

He might be able to donate some pickerel as well.

I don't think a pond half the size always (or is limited somehow) to grow fish only exactly half the size. Big bass can thrive in small ponds. The formula has more to do with ratio of predator fish to forage fish and also the competition between similar sized predators in the same pond.

One of the best quotes I read on this forum is that if you don't have enough FHM or other forage fish so that you can walk on the water without sinking..... then you aren't ready to put bigger fish in yet.

That might take a summer/fall to achieve that in a 1/2 acre pond and then you can keep reading/learning and then do some more stocking next spring?

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Some are good at using math to predict fish growth and stocking outcomes.

I found this equation which might be helpful:

1 is LMB stocking size
2 is chain pickerel stocking size
c is how many FHM are there at the time of the LMB stocking
h is the size of the smaller pond
g is the size of the larger pond

The arrows show stocking in one pond vs the other
A arrow from right to left means adding more
the (-1) means taking bass out after 1 year

D1 is days after first stocking
D2 is days after the first removal of any apex predator larger than 15"

f is not a third pond but the net effect of doing everything at once rather than following only one arrow at once

Attached Images
formula.gif
Last edited by canyoncreek; 05/29/14 03:40 PM.
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My friend does nothing to maintain his pond. It came with the house and he hasn't done anything with it except fish. And thanks canyon.

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canyoncreek, I need to go back to high school confused grin. Would you please explain it in a system I can understand (just for me)?

I'm terrible about math (but my check book is always to the penny grin.

Thank You canyon!!!

I've looked at that equation 3 times and it still baffles me confused.

Last edited by hang_loose; 05/29/14 08:58 PM.
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