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I pulled the Vertex diffusers and went back to the old stone diffusers on both lines and psi is back to normal about 5psi. Unfortunately with the weather I am not sure when I will be able to get the Vertex ones hooked back up to see what is going on.
As long as I know the Vertex diffusers can handle the output of the compressor I have then I will start looking at other potential issues.
Hopefully tomorrow I can experiment some and see what I can figure out.
I am pretty sure the line wasn't kinked. It is all new, self sinking line and was tight when lowered into the water.
Thanks for the info. I'll keep you all informed.
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Nate, you have gotten some really good advice. Read it over carefully and all the information is there. I am just going to reiterate a couple things, just in case you did not catch it reading the previous posts.
Your compressor, if in good shape, should output XX amount CFM at a given depth. The deeper the water, the more the back pressure on the compressor, the lower the CFM. As was pointed out, about 6 psi is what your pressure should be at the compressor head to be able to push the air out against the static water pressure at thhe 12' depth plus what resistance is in the line and diffuser. So if the pressure reading is significantly higher than that, something is amiss.
My first suspect is the diffusers might be under sized for the CFM you have, since they were the variable you changed that changed the pressure reading.
A membrane diffuser is sized and has holes to operate correctly at a given CFM flow (actually has a "range" of acceptable operating CFM flows). If there is more air flow (to high CFM) than the holes and size of the diffuser can handle, it will balloon up and force the holes bigger, reducing the output of the compressor at the higher psi while at the same time over flexing the membrane. This will cause the membrane to fail prematurely, like a balloon being over inflated.
IF this is the case (and it might not be, just check the specs on the diffusers for their CFM rating). The output of your compressor at the depth it is running (12') should fall within the range of the sum of all the diffusers added up can handle. If you have more CFM than what the diffusers are rated for, you can either add more diffusers (like a dual, triple or quad diffuser), use a bigger diffuser, or bleed off some air from your compressor so not all the air goes to the diffusers. I personally would want to use all the air you are paying electricity for to compress, even if it meant going to bigger holes and bigger bubbles or a larger or multiple diffuser. But that is just me (and I am not at all an expert).
All of this information was included in the previous posts if you read through them carefully. I have said nothing new, just presented it in maybe a more explanatory way.
Last edited by snrub; 04/27/14 09:26 PM.
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This all makes a lot of sense. Thanks for the summary.
The Vertex diffusers are rated at .5cfm to 2cfm. If I was trying to run one of those with my compressor which puts out 4.5cfm that would probably be what caused my pressure at the pump to go up.
I am wondering if I may not need to bleed some air off or at least run both diffusers even though not needed for the size of pond I have.
Any harm in running both? Can you turn the pond over to much? Doesn't seem like it would be an issue.
I am hoping to create some good water for the family to swim in as well as restock with bluegills so my 2 and 4 yr old can have some fun catching fish in the future.
I built a manifold tonight that I can hook up when it's nice again. It will allow me to have both diffusers plus a line to bleed off air if needed.
Thanks again everyone for getting me headed in the right direction.
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This all makes a lot of sense. Thanks for the summary.
The Vertex diffusers are rated at .5cfm to 2cfm. If I was trying to run one of those with my compressor which puts out 4.5cfm that would probably be what caused my pressure at the pump to go up.
Sounds like you are on the right track to me. One diffuser = need to bleed some air off. Two diffusers will be about perfect. Remember, your pump will put out somewhat less CFM against a 12' static water pressure (6 psi) than it will open flow. So you might have only 3.5 or 4 cfm at 6 psi. Like I said before, I'm no expert. I have run pond aeration for a total of two or three weeks last fall as a temporary experiment in preparation for installing a permanent system later this spring (soon I hope). My knowledge is mostly from reading a bunch (here on PBF as well as mfg spcs) last year in preparation for installing a system myself. But I have had many years with pressure and flow rates in hydraulics and air so have what I feel is a very good layman's working knowledge on flows and pressures. I'm also a scuba diver and understand static water pressures at depth. So that is the background I speak from. Definitely not from years of experience with pond aeration systems. With the above in mind I will give an opinion (that very may well be wrong because of lack of experience, but it is worth every penny you paid for it  ) My opinion would be, where you have had a fish kill, you want to clean up some muck, where you are in "remediation" mode, my OPINION would be you could use all the air you could get. You might stir the pond up and make it turbid with old muck. So what? Nutrients stirred up should give you a good algae bloom. It might make your water look "yucky" for a while, but the added disturbance should get you the quickest results of remediation. After all what does the air do? It moves water. The bubbles don't do much themselves except move water. The bubbles are inducing current to move water. I don't see any way (and I have been wrong before, many times, so it is an opinion, not expert advice) that you could produce too large of current in the water to hurt the current fish population or do any permanent damage. If you don't like the results being obtained, do something different. If it were me, I'd go for it. Move some water with all the air you got. 
Last edited by snrub; 04/27/14 10:34 PM.
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^^^ what he said!
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NateS - Try this for some troubleshooting your extra psi problem. I am pretty sure the Vertex membrane diffuser was designed to normally handle or operate at 0.5 to 4cfm with peak flow of 6cfm were damage to the diffuser could occur. Ted Lea could confirm this. To test the Vertex diffuser which I assume is a dual head model, connect the diffuser directly to the compressor using a short piece of 5/8"ID hose. The diffuser should be out of the water and near the pump so the only thing receiving air is the diffuser through a short hose. Dual head diffuser will result in each membrane getting less air volume than just one membrane. Turn on the pump and the gauge (30psi model) should read 0 pressure. I just tested a single Non-Vertex 9" membrane connected to the pump with 4.5 cfm and pressure on gauge read 0. This test means there are enough holes and large enough holes in the diffuser to not cause backpressure on the pump. The Vertex diffuser could be causing some sort of back or head pressure.
Last edited by Bill Cody; 04/02/21 09:16 PM.
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I'll give that a try. I bought the single disk diffuser pack. It is 2 single disk diffusers without a base. I built the base and plumbed the connection system for it.
According the Vertex sight each diffuser is rated for .5 cfm min to 2cfm max.
I need some nice weather so I can get out and play with this more. I can do the direct hookup though since the compressor is under my carport and out of the weather.
Thanks
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Double check with Ted L. I think 2cfm max is for normal operation. I think each of the membranes can withstand more cfm (4-5.5cfm) for short periods similar to what I noted above. Let us know what you find out.
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Got a break in the weather and was able to run some tests.
I did as you suggested. I hooked the single disc Vertex diffuser straight to the 5/8" coming out of my compressor. Immediately psi went up to 10. I then tried the other Vertex disc and same thing, 10psi. That is 5/8" line that is running 10', dry.
I then split the line and ran to both diffusers and it dropped to 5psi.
I hooked up a new manifold I made from pvc down by the pond to get rid of the inline valves. Now I have 1.25" going 300ft to the pond downsizing to 3/4" pvc manifold with 3 ball valves so I can have a relief line if needed.
This goes down to 3/8" sinking line to 1 diffuser at about 9' and 1 at about 5' depth. (I lowered the pond about 3' to keep the Fluridone in and give me room with rain to keep the water from reaching the overflow for some time.)
I have the Vertex diffuser in the deep and the old ring diffuser in the shallow.
I am now reading 5.5 psi at the pump with the valve part way shut to the shallow water diffuser.
This seems to indicate to me I need to relieve pressure from just running 1 Vertex.
I am hoping to get in touch with Ted Lea at some point but he has been sick so I don't want to bother him unnecessarily.
Appreciate the help as always and am enjoying learning from everyone's input here.
I want to run both at this point anyhow to speed up the recovery process of my pond.
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I could not find a data sheet for a model 2650 but here is a link to a 2660-2680 models and notice in the right hand column the output is 4.4 cfm open flow so should be close performance to your 2650. On these rocking piston compressors that can handle significant pressures it looks like very little cfm loss at 5 psi. At 10 psi it is only about .2 cfm loss. Thomas 2660-2680 pump performance PDF FYI
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I would assume the lower the psi the better for the pump although if I am understanding correctly it would be ok for this pump to run at 10psi?
I am going to stick with the 2 diffusers running at this point and in the winter go down to 1 and relieve pressure by running a line directly into the water if needed. I should have no problem keeping it around 5-6psi doing this.
When I get in touch with Ted I will relay any info I get from him about this setup.
Any suggestions on a good air filter setup? I would like to upgrade from the seemingly cheap plastic/foam insert thing that came with it.
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I think each Vertex diffuser should take all the air direct from the compressor with 0 back pressure. Ask Ted to connect one of his single diffusers to a 4cfm pump and see what his psi reading is. IMO pressure should be 0 not 10psi. Something seems wrong with this picture IMO. A normal Vertex diffuser should not cause that much back pressure. The only way the psi should be 10 for one diffuser is the holes/slits are smaller than 1 millimeter and too few of them on the membrane.
Snrub thanks a lot for the link to the Thomas compressors. Very helpful.
Last edited by Bill Cody; 04/29/14 05:00 PM.
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Just to test things a bit further.
I again connected my single Vertex diffuser (the one not currently in the water) direct to my 5/8" line from my compressor and got about 8 psi. The one in the water consistently give me 10psi in 9' of water and sets my relief valve off.
I then took my extra stone diffuser which is probably 8 years old and hooked direct to the 5/8" line from the compressor and got a 1psi reading.
Looks like I will be making a call to see if Ted or his wife can give me some ideas. I feel bad bothering Ted knowing he is struggling with his health right now but would like to try to figure this out.
I'll keep everyone informed of my findings.
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I think each Vertex diffuser should take all the air direct from the compressor with 0 back pressure. Ask Ted to connect one of his single diffusers to a 4cfm pump and see what his psi reading is. IMO pressure should be 0 not 10psi. Something seems wrong with this picture IMO. A normal Vertex diffuser should not cause that much back pressure. The only way the psi should be 10 for one diffuser is the holes/slits are smaller than 1 millimeter and too few of them on the membrane.
Snrub thanks a lot for the link to the Thomas compressors. Very helpful. Bill, I may be all wet here because I am speaking from what my "minds eye" sees and not from practical experience, but I would expect more back pressure from the diffuser at shallow or no depth than from deeper depths. For example, at 10 feet depth, the compressor already has to overcome the static water pressure at that depth. The diffuser might only add an additional tenth psi or something very small to open the slits for the bubble to escape. But I can see where there is no back pressure from water depth, it is going to take something to balloon up the diffuser and cause the air to escape. I could be all wrong about this. I have no engineering data or practical experience to back it up, just what would seem logical to me. Would be nice if one of the aeration sales experts could come on and give some examples or explanations as I am interested too. I do know if you connect a dual Matala diffuser to a pump at about 4 cfm it will balloon up when done so on the surface. Did not have a pressure gage installed at the time (have one now). I have not watched it at depth (will this summer when I scuba dive the pond - will try to remember to take pictures) but I would expect the membrane to move very little. Seems I read somewhere it is not particularly good to balloon up the membranes as it is hard on them. I'm going to run a linear diaphragm pump which looses cfm rapidly at depth, but they are very economical on electricity at shallow depths. My CFM drops in half from surface to 10' and max depth for the pump is only about 12' (where the output would approach zero beyond that). I've got mine setting out in the shed. If I think about it tomorrow will hook it up and see what happens to the pressure on the surface with the pump turned on. Again, this is just speculation at this point on my part.
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Just to test things a bit further.
I again connected my single Vertex diffuser (the one not currently in the water) direct to my 5/8" line from my compressor and got about 8 psi. The one in the water consistently give me 10psi in 9' of water and sets my relief valve off.
I then took my extra stone diffuser which is probably 8 years old and hooked direct to the 5/8" line from the compressor and got a 1psi reading.
Looks like I will be making a call to see if Ted or his wife can give me some ideas. I feel bad bothering Ted knowing he is struggling with his health right now but would like to try to figure this out.
I'll keep everyone informed of my findings.
This makes me question if perhaps he accidentally sent you an incorrect diffuser model. Perhaps one designed for a lower CFM rating. As Bill pointed out, the diffuser membrane has holes sized and numbered to allow a range of air CFM to escape without excessive back pressure. They strive for the smallest holes/slits as possible because smaller bubbles for a given CFM has more surface area of the bubbles so moves more water compared to a diffuser that creates larger bubbles. That is why the membrane diffusers are generally considered better than the air stones. They can have better controlled hole size and create smaller bubbles for a given CFM. But I am speculating. I'll fire up my pump and see what happens on my Matala diffusers. If a person is trying to force more air through a diffuser that is not designed to handle that much CFM, it definitely is going to have back pressure and is also going to be very hard on the membrane I would guess.
Last edited by snrub; 04/29/14 06:34 PM.
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I know Ted pretty well and I sent him an email with a link to this thread about our back pressure problem.
It has always been my experience and preference to have no or very little back pressure (0-0.5psi) on the pump when a diffuser is connected to a compressor. This is very important when building your own diffuser. You ideally want all the air to escape out the diffuser with no pressure on the gauge until you start putting the diffuser in the water. If there is back pressure on a home made diffuser, you don't have enough holes in the diffuser or the holes are too tight/small or both, i.e too much air trying to get out too few or too small of holes. My thinking is why create unnecessary back pressure for the pump??. Use all pressure to operate the diffuser.
For commercial small slit diffusers there will be a small amount of psi needed to inflate or balloon a membrane, but this I think should be low enough to not register on the standard 30psi gauge.
When in the water, then 0.5psi is created for every foot of depth the diffuser descends into the pond.
snrub says: ""but I would expect more back pressure from the diffuser at shallow or no depth than from deeper depths. For example, at 10 feet depth, the compressor already has to overcome the static water pressure at that depth. The diffuser might only add an additional tenth psi or something very small to open the slits for the bubble to escape.""
From actual practice there is no backpressure from the diffuser at no depth. If there is any back pressure out of the water it should not come from the diffuser. What would create the backpressure? Generally it is due to too few holes or too small of holes, or too much air volume trying to get through too few holes. You say ""The diffuser might only add an additional tenth psi or something very small to open the slits..."" This is correct. Very little psi is needed to open the slits, similar to a check valve. Low pressure should be needed to open the valve. At 10 ft the static or water head pressure needed to release air is 5psi. IMO very little extra pressure of force should be then be needed to open the check valve and slits on the diffuser. PSI to open slits plus head pressure, plus tubing back pressure/resistance equals total pressure on the air gauge. Back pressures are additive. Is all this clear as mud???
Last edited by Bill Cody; 04/29/14 06:56 PM.
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I talked to him about what I was looking at and then ordered them from his website. There was only one option for the pair of single disk diffusers so that was what I selected.
When I hook them straight to the compressor they ballon up a little but not a lot. No fear of any popping.
I called and left a message for Ted so hopefully I'll hear back tomorrow sometime and be able to get some more ideas.
Snrub, I'll be interested to hear what you find with your Matalas.
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Okay I received a response from Ted Lea. He says for the Vertex membrane diffuser, the membrane holder has a smaller orifice in it that other membrane diffuser holders do not have. It makes the Vertex diffusers unique. This is a specially designed "flow control" and adds psi back pressure. It was designed and added to each diffuser to allow equal air distribution on multiple head diffusers especially when the diffuser assembly is not sitting perfectly level on the pond bottom. Once again it proves that Vertex is an innovator and leader in the pond & lake aeration industry.
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That's an interesting feature and I am sure helpful. I wonder though about my situation with running one diffuser and how effective that makes it. Maybe I am running to much compressor for what I need. In the end as long as I know it is working right and does what it's supposed to then it is all good. Never knew this would get so complex  Now I just need a simple 1/2" check valve at my compressor output. The one I hooked up tonight chattered bad. A Milwaukee Valve .5psi crack pressure. Suggestions for a check valve. This one should be simple I hope.
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Ok, Bill was right on the pressure being zero (except for the new Vertex diffusers having internal orifices).
Absent any internal orifices, my Matala dual diffusers read zero psi (on a 15 psi gage) and ballooned up maybe an inch. I held down one diffuser to close off the internal check valve and could tell there was no pressure then in that side, and all the air went to the other diffuser. The gage still read zero even with all the air going through the single diffuser.
So there is very little back pressure from the diffuser itself, even when out of the water absent any water head pressure. It appears according to Bill Cody's post above Vertex does put an internal restriction to force air to better equalize between diffusers when placed at different depths. This would lessen or eliminate the need for flow control valves to shut off part of the flow to a shallower diffuser (so the diffuser with the lower head pressure does not get all the flow). Probably a simplification for user who do not care to understand the dynamics of pressure and flow in their system. IE makes it more idiot proof.
Last edited by snrub; 04/29/14 08:01 PM.
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I think I need to get my other diffuser base made up so I can get the other Vertex diffuser in the shallow portion of the pond and see what the pressure does under real use.
10psi still seems high to me for just the one diffuser running in the water at 9' especially as that is with the pressure relief valve going off when set at 15psi relief.
An inch of ballooning is about what I experienced with both the Vertex diffusers so that is the same.
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Here are some additional threads and information that might be helpful. Pressure calculation thread Aeration simplified thread Water head pressure table Note on the table, it is .43 psi for each foot of depth. As esshup pointed out in one of the other threads linked above (and Bill Cody mentions in his post), .5 psi per foot is a good rule of thumb figure to use as it allows for a small additional back pressure from friction in the supply line and diffuser. You are getting me excited about getting my system back in the water in a more permanent fashion than it was last fall. Getting that time of year.
Last edited by snrub; 04/29/14 08:33 PM. Reason: can't spell worth a darn
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I know Ted pretty well and I sent him an email with a link to this thread about our back pressure problem.
It has always been my experience and preference to have no or very little back pressure (0-0.5psi) on the pump when a diffuser is connected to a compressor. This is very important when building your own diffuser. You ideally want all the air to escape out the diffuser with no pressure on the gauge until you start putting the diffuser in the water. If there is back pressure on a home made diffuser, you don't have enough holes in the diffuser or the holes are too tight/small or both, i.e too much air trying to get out too few or too small of holes. My thinking is why create unnecessary back pressure for the pump??. Use all pressure to operate the diffuser.
For commercial small slit diffusers there will be a small amount of psi needed to inflate or balloon a membrane, but this I think should be low enough to not register on the standard 30psi gauge.
When in the water, then 0.5psi is created for every foot of depth the diffuser descends into the pond.
snrub says: ""but I would expect more back pressure from the diffuser at shallow or no depth than from deeper depths. For example, at 10 feet depth, the compressor already has to overcome the static water pressure at that depth. The diffuser might only add an additional tenth psi or something very small to open the slits for the bubble to escape.""
From actual practice there is no backpressure from the diffuser at no depth. If there is any back pressure out of the water it should not come from the diffuser. What would create the backpressure? Generally it is due to too few holes or too small of holes, or too much air volume trying to get through too few holes. You say ""The diffuser might only add an additional tenth psi or something very small to open the slits..."" This is correct. Very little psi is needed to open the slits, similar to a check valve. Low pressure should be needed to open the valve. At 10 ft the static or water head pressure needed to release air is 5psi. IMO very little extra pressure of force should be then be needed to open the check valve and slits on the diffuser. PSI to open slits plus head pressure, plus tubing back pressure/resistance equals total pressure on the air gauge. Back pressures are additive. Is all this clear as mud??? Perfectly clear, and you are absolutely correct. I was incorrect in my thinking that head pressure would make a difference. It does not.
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Maybe I am still not understanding things correctly. I am trying to understand how I get 10psi on my gauge right of the pump and the reading at 9ft water depth.
Is the Vertex not designed to be used as a single disk diffuser? Or as a single disk is it meant to be used with a lower pressure compressor?
At 9ft depth, .5psi per foot I should be running about 4.5psi at the pump. However with the single Vertex I get over 10psi at the pump and setting off my pressure relief valve. However if I pull the diffuser up and swap out to my old stone diffuser I am about 5psi or just over.
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What does it read when you pressure up out of water? Your getting back pressure some where either line resistance or diffuser/depth/line length/resistance.
Could also be the Guage or popoff relief
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