Pond Boss Forums STOCKING A NEW POND Types of fish to choose Stocking a new pond with RES, YP and SMB

Thank you!

Crayfish will develop high numbers in a pond with just FHM, other minnow species or shiners. Sport fish even pan fish will keep the crayfish numbers lower due to the fish even young panfish eating the new baby crayfish. Lot of crayfish in a pond can keep the FA and weeds to low amounts although the pond may be murky due to lots of crayfish activity in the sediments. Best habitat for crayfish is large riprap along most all the shoreline down to 3-5ft deep. Crayfish live among the rocks and will eat the attached algae that grows on the rocks / concrete. Some species of crayfish are more aggressive such as the rusty crayfish and tend to suppress the numbers of papershells depending on amount of habitat.

I don't think very many fish farms have figured out that you can grow lots of beneficial pond dwelling crayfish in small shallow ponds that will not support good fish populations. Wetland or summer kill ponds are good crayfish areas as long as the pond does not go completely dry in the summer. You can poly culture crayfish and minnows to get a double cash crop. There is a pretty good bait market for papershell crayfish wherever SMB angling is good. Crayfish are easy to ship with low mortality. As many fish farms that there are in the Midwest one would think more would grow crayfish.

Thank you Bill. I will likely put these in all my BOW including a shallow pond that had severe fish mortality this winter.

I've been putting in some thought on long term survivability of forage fish in the pond, and I wonder if stocking YP will make this even more challenging for me?

If your goal was primarily trophy SMB would you stock YP or leave them out of the mix? I know the YP will provide a lot of forage for the SMB, but they will also eat a lot of the other varieties of forage in the pond and possibly make the long term chances of their survival less likely?

Would a scenario of SMB and RES stocked with FH,GSH,LCS,Killifish and crayfish be a better long term setting to meet my goal?

I don't think you will be able to grow trophy SMB (4-6 lbs) in a pond with out feeding them pellets unless the number of SMB are low per acre, thus providing more or lots of forage for only a few predators. A strict slot harvest of bass would be IMO required to keep younger, smaller SMB at low density. Aquamax LMB pellets will help increase the chances of growing trophy SMB faster.

With SMB, I think FHM will be eliminated shortly after or prior to the first SMB spawn. As with LMB, the FHM are primarily to just get the bass to the 10"-11" size, then FHM are gone. The main concern for growing big SMB is to have numerous larger forage items for them after the smallies get to 15"-16" and to keep them fat and growing well. The LCS should provide that food source providing the smallies can adequately catch the LCS. LCS are noted in the literature as good behavior features for avoiding predation. The 4"-6" YP&GSH would also contribute to the larger forage items. No one here nor in the literature has used LCS-YP-RES-GSH-SMB-crayfish so you are traveling a new fishery path. Keep us informed of your progress.

Smallies in a 'balanced' population will usually keep the YP from being too abundant and damaging the smaller forage items. Diverse forage may change the balance and fishery structure.

Cody knows best - I'd like to add:

If trophy SMB were my goal, I'd go low density [25-50/acre] with pellet trained fish and specifically not add spawning structure to help manage population. GSH, LCS, BNM or other minnows and non burrowing crays would comprise my forage base. Low density SMB might be challenged to manage YP numbers - depending on density/presence of aquatic vegetation. However, I love YP so much I wouldn't mind leaving the management to myself thru angling pressure. I do NOT envision the YP population impacting the forage base outlined above to the extent that SMB would suffer. Remember a YP gape is pretty limited - any GSH or LCS 4"+ would likely be outside the predation range of all but the largest YP.

SO - I think you're onto something here, and also think the YP would be a great addition if you enjoy harvesting them to assist in management. You could grow some truly impressive SMB in this scenario.

Thanks for answering my question Bill. I do plan to feed pellets and start with a reduced rate of smallies 50-60 total in 3 acres. Also plan to remove several in the future if they prove to reproduce as well as I have heard they may. If I stock pellet trained SMB is it likely that I could keep a fairly high percentage of them on the Aquamax even as they grow to larger sizes?

Im with you on the need for larger size forage for 15"+ fish and that was the original plan for the YP to provide that... But Im a little concerned the smallies will prefer some of the other forage in the pond and the YP will get out of control and then really decimate the rest of the forage base. My biggest concern is the fact that they will be in a way a competing predator to the SMB. My hope is that the LCS won't be competing with the SMB as their diet is a lot different. I realize some of this will be speculation on you and others on the forum as this is uncharted waters, but I figure your best guess will be a lot closer than mine.

Great post TJ, just the kind of moral support and info. I'm looking for. However it's a little late on the SMB spawning substrate. I have ALOT of rock in the pond and it's not coming out. Hopefully I didn't shoot my self in the foot by providing too much. Maybe heavy silt will in time help me take care of some of that.;) I plan to work on the SMB population really hard and remove whatever necessary to keep the numbers down. I never eat bass, but sounds like its a real possibility in the near future.

I'm with you on the YP I love them as well,but was willing to give that up in order to reach my goal of trophy SMB. It is very reassuring to hear you say that the YP probably wouldn't make the kind of impact on the forage base as I thought they may.

J

I don't harbor any doubts you can achieve your goal of trophy SMB despite potential SMB recruitment. Remember your GSH, YP and age 1 SMB will hammer YOY SMB hard, so I'm suspecting SMB population management won't be a serious issue. Besides, if it does become an issue, you now have a good excuse to fish for SMB often and relocate/sell underachieving fish which will probably be fairly aggressive and easily culled. [FYI the SMB market nationwide is under-served and 8-12" SMB fetch a nice price - probably $10-20/ea - so that buys plenty of Aqua Max.] Catch, cage, and collect over a season and try to feed train/improve body condition and sell when you develop a market. Regarding the latter....I can think of three guys in IN on the forum now who would likely take all these fish off your hands annually.

Same goes for YP - excess 6-8" fish you can collect, cage, feed train and fatten up would fetch a nice price locally - probably $1+/ea. 6" YP in NE are about $.75/ea and that's my wholesale price. My obvious point here is that through assertive management techniques you can finally open that lemonade stand you've been dreaming about since you were 5.

*Remember, if you are selling fish to check state regulations and ensure compliance. In NE it requires a $76 annual license.*

Ultimately it's up to you whether or not to stock YP, however from my experience with these species in my own ponds I don't think presence of YP will do anything but improve your chances of achieving trophy SMB.

And...since I can't leave well enough alone...have you considered adding WE ladder stocking on an annual basis to provide a bonus catch? They will lean on your forage base much more than YP...but then again you could keep stocking numbers low and create put and take fishery. Say, 25-30 annually? Just a thought!

And because we're a "great lakes" state, you cannot sell fish (or transport to another great lake state) without having the fish tested. Talk to Cecil about that, it isn't cheap. IIRC you have to submit 60 fish of each species from each pond plus the test runs around $300.00.

Sold or moved within the state? No testing required, but you are supposed to get a fish haulers license (free) and submit quarterly stocking reports to the State.

I can definitely think of a lot worse things to do with my time then fish for SMB in order to keep populations in line. I'm sure my 13 yr old would love that job and the thought of getting a little income off the extra fish to offset expenses sounds great! At $10-20 a fish it makes it really difficult to justify eating them for dinner. Sounds like if you keep it in state it wouldn't be too big of a hassle to sell fish, but wow they really make you jump through hoops to sell out of state.

I really appreciate hearing about the real world experience you've had with the YP. It makes me feel a lot better about sticking to the original plan to include them in the pond.
Besides now that I won't be eating the SMB I'll need something for the dinner table and the perch are pretty hard to beat in that aspect!

I really like the put and take WE idea! I assume this would come down the road at least 5-6years out? So in this scenario you would stock say 1lb fish and harvest them later the same year or stock smaller fish and harvest the next season after they put on the size? I can only imagine having 5lb SMB, 14" perch, and 20" walleye in my own private waters! Now that sounds pretty awesome! Hopefully I can get it all put together and make it happen. With the info and advice I've gained on this site I feel like I'm at least starting out on the right track.

Getting back to building the forage base. I've got 30 LCS ordered to stock the pond and they range in size from some 3-4" (8-10 fish) and the rest being 1-2" fish. These fish will be my brood stock and will be going in very soon. Do you think I'm safe stocking the YP the end of May and the SMB this fall? It's difficult for me to wait til the following year but I will if necessary...
I also am stocking crayfish and wonder if it would be best to wait and stock Smallies later?

My original thoughts were that I would be okay to stock the SMB this fall since I'm stocking them at such a low rate (60 fish in 3 acres) and they will be pellet fed.

How about RES stocking? Is it okay to stock like 500-600 now or in another month or so?

I would not stock WE until you see you have an overpopulation of YP. Without excess forage the WE will compete with SMB in a small pond habitat and reduce the forage base. Thus your SMB, unless heavily dependent on pellets, will not achieve the trophy status. This applies primarily to SMB that were recruited in your pond and 7-10 yrs down the road. The original stocking of SMB may be the biggest SMB that you raise in your pond.

It is relatively easy to get the first stocking of fish in a new or renovated pond to grow fish to be the 'trophy' sizes, however it takes a lot better management methods to get the recruitment fish to grow to the trophy sizes. This concept has very little study and research. I think this occurs mainly because the pond ages and the food web declines as the nutrient budget gradually becomes more incorporated into the organic sediments and other resources. Plus a lot or too much of the standing stock is incorporated into big fish.

Great information Bill.

Rings true of guys around here talking about great fishing ponds in years gone by that no longer are any good. These are mostly "little or no management" farm ponds in need of some TLC or starting over.

I've decided to be patient and wait to stock SMB in the Fall of 2015 in order to give the forage base of the pond plenty of time to establish. Also I'm thinking of waiting until May of 2015 to stock YP. Would it be a good idea to go ahead and stock RES this spring or should I wait on these as well? I don't want to take any chance of the RES putting pressure on the forage fish so that's why I'm asking as I'm not sure if they will...

The forage I plan to stock can now be in smaller numbers so this will save me money, but I want to maximize this opportunity to establish a very strong forage base for the bass. So I would appreciate some help on numbers to stock give this new time line of stocking SMB later than originally planned.

The forage I'm planning to stock is FH,GSH, and calico crayfish. If someone could help me establish a firm number of each species to stock in my 3 ac I would appreciate it. I'm stocking LCS and WKF as well, but these will be stocked at a much lower rate this spring as they are very expensive fish.

I don't think its really necessary to stock 100# of FH or 50# of GSH given I have basically 2 full spawning seasons to get ahead of the game, but I don't want to cut corners either. I want all 3 of these species to be very strong by the time I stock SMB.

Any other suggestions of forage fish to try while I have this opportunity? I realize that BNM and SFM may not survive predation but I'm tempted to stock a few any way to give it a shot.

I appreciate any ones help on this!

With 2 seasons ahead of you 100-250 FHM and 25-100 GSH are all you NEED to stock. You can go higher, I'm merely stating you don't HAVE to. Lower QTY FHM allows you to hand sort every fish and verify species. Both fish will spawn multiple times provided the habitat is present - FHM like overhead cover [rock, pallets, trees, roots, vegetation] and GSH need submergent vegetation.

The crayfish will not be as prolific spawners by comparison - that's where I would focus my resources on establishing a higher initial population. I forget Bill's recommendation for a new pond devoid of predators - 200-500/ac? Whichever it was, take that advice to the bank.

Since you will likely miss this spring egg laying and hatch of crayfish I would if feasible for you, stock around 1000/ac or more. If you can't acquire that many stock what you can get. Higher numbers will provide a strong brood stock for next spring crayfish egg production. Once you add the SMB the crays will be heavily be preyed upon and numbers will diminish. Stocking the higher numbers will also help with filamentous algae control as crayfish will eat the FA and Chara common in new ponds.

Thanks TJ and Bill, I'll take your advice and put the money that I originally had planned to spend on FH and GSH and put it toward crayfish. It's nice to know that I'll get some added benefit of FA control from the crayfish since they are so expensive.

The LCS and western banded killifish arrived today and they were very lively! I was impressed by how well they held up in the mail for three days. Here's a few pics of the way the fish were packed and of the larger LCS as they were released.

http://i1065.photobucket.com/albums/u392/JamieE38/1b07c714f786b14ff7b82ba46841f860.jpg

http://i1065.photobucket.com/albums/u392/JamieE38/6f1cca148bd8125049d7d9d407f8e340.jpg

These fish were the first fish released into the pond. Tomorrow I will be releasing 5lbs of FHM and 2lbs of GSH.

Jamie I strongly recommend hand sorting the FHM prior to stocking to ensure no invasive species exist. Many of us have been there and made the rookie mistake...two fish of the wrong species can permanently alter your goals. Take the time, hand sort and verify species ID!

I plan to do just that TJ, even if it costs me some of the fish in the process. Is there any good method to do this? Should I get a small aquarium net to handle the fish or just reach in with my hands?

When I stock FHM into my reproduction cells I aerate 100G stock tank and use a small net like you describe to sort 10-15 at a time into a 5G bucket. You can usually do 5-10 visually at one time which helps speed the process depending on your hand size. A BG, BH or Carp really stand out - you only need a brief visual confirmation. I personally don't worry much about Sticklebacks - I toss them if I can but don't lose sleep including them.

If you start getting bored or tired take a break - this is usually when mistakes occur. This is why it's important to keep my FHM aerated so I'm not up against a time crunch - but can take breaks and come back when I'm focused again. Hand sorting 5-10,000 FHM takes some time.

Good size to those LCS. I hope they do well for you. I think they should pull off a spawn next year for you. How many of that size did you get?

Well I got through hand sorting the FHM in a similar manner as you described above TJ. I put them in a bucket, scooped them into the net and pulled out 6-10 at a time by hand. I thought as you said above that I just needed to give each one a quick look and confirm the obvious. Found only FHM in the 5 pounds that I had picked up. I also hand sorted through the golden shiners and they were all good as well. I think the 5# is about all I'd want to do with out aeration.

I may pick up another round of the same amount of FHM 5# and GSH 2# as the amount I put in just didn't seem like much compared to the size of the pond.

CJ, they were nice sized LCS, but I only got 7-8 of that size... Hopefully enough to pull off at least some type of a spawn. The other 22 fish were quite small at about 1" or so. I also released 10 western banded killifish. The 10 was all that Brian could spare for now. I am going to try to get another 20 or so of those from him later in the summer.

That's great news on the purity of the FHM order and good job sorting. You can continue to use that source with additional confidence now that your first order was clean - that's huge.