Pond Boss Forums STOCKING A NEW POND Raising Forage and Bait Going in Backwards

Follow up - currently I do have pretty good coverage - it is not an open bowl -

I have 8-10 big dead cedars, several other trees, brush etc..- I know this is relative, but it is not one big open bowl

There are numerous ways to proceed and approach your current situation. Having a 3/4 ac forage pond changes how you can proceed and your options. Adding forage from the 0.7 ac pond will do a lot to maintain a strong forage base in the 2 ac pond. Below is an indication of how much forage you may need to add per acre for growing large bass.

You and other big bass or predator lovers with smaller ponds can think about this "out of the box" approach as an option for growing or raising trophy LMB in a small 1-2 ac pond.

If the two ponds were mine at my point in life, and my dream was big LMbass of 5 lbs to 10 lbs in a one to two ac pond, I would stock the pond with forage and then only add female bass caught during spawn season. BENEFITS: Competition would be kept to a minimum and you have very good control of predator numbers which we have learned is especially important when trying to grow trophy fish (see later). No over population problems unless you make a 'sexing' mistake. Preferably I would try and use pellet trained females that could eat the AquaMax big bass pellets (1") and forage. Feed trained bass would allow you to monitor their sizes, relative condition, their numbers and watch them as pets which would be pretty amazing and unique.

You would not have to add all the female bass at once, but add them over the period of a few years - a few each year as you are able to get them. Then after several years, as they start dying of old age periodically add a few females each year to keep the numbers around 30 and depending on what their body condition is (Rw) and the amount of proper forage present to feed big bass. Remember big bass do not grow well eating small 4"-6" forage items (see later).

Instead of using pellet trained bass or addition to, you could with time and concerted effort, also teach them to eat hand fed fish. A few posts here have discussed that option notably Herman Brothers and Bruce Condello. PBoss member 'gar king' has a videos on this forum of hand feeding bass.
Hand feeding bass
http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Main=26245&Number=335870#Post335870

http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Main=26066&Number=333550#Post333550

http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Main=25493&Number=325080#Post325080

http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Main=25627&Number=327372#Post327372


The technique has some specific methods for teaching the fish to make it work conveniently. My dad & I did similar things of hand feeding big bass fresh fish in our new pond back in the 1970's. It works. I think you could realistically grow 25-35 female bass (4 to 10 lbs ave 5-6 lbs; range 2-10 lbs) in 2 ac.

To put the number of big bass per acre in perspective read this from B.Lusk. ""Look at bass larger than 5 pounds with reverence. Be awed. Not only have these bass eaten a lot, they have avoided being eaten...a lot.
An eight pound bass is probably six years old. It has lived only half its "normal" life.
In a "great" 25 acre trophy bass lake, there are likely fewer than 25 bass larger than six pounds.""

So if one can have 20-25 only big female bass in 2 acres of water that is truly a very unique fishery and great accomplishment, not to mention very rare.

The following is a quote from a place that specializes in growing big bass. It is not real well written but the idea is evident.
"" Here is number one pitfall of most trophy bass lakes. These large monster bass reproduce a lot of little bass and you must comment to removing these smaller bass. This is the hardest job in raise trophy bass. This is the number one cause of failure in trophy bass lake. Most trophy bass lakes are private and don't have the fishing presser to remove those smaller bass. These smaller bass grow very quickly and consume a lot feed intend for your trophy bass. This is where your food supply gets out of whack.""

Thus for a smaller body of water an alternative method to grow big bass is to stock single sex female bass and you have prevented one of the big problems of too many bass eating too much of the available food and thus not growing or even worse loosing weight which commonly occurs when one transfers big bass into a new pond with improper forage.

It is my experience that bass almost always grow to a size that is allowed by the limits of the forage community.

Norm Latovia from Southeastern Pond Management - AL: Next discusses how much forage it takes to grow big bass and keep big bass growing.

""Recent research suggests that largemouth bass, under optimal conditions, are capable of consuming as much as 5 percent of their body weight daily. That means a 5-pound bass, feeding at maximum efficiency, will consume a quarter pound per day ... nearly 2 pounds per week... over 50 pounds during a normal growing season (March-October).
That's 10 times its body weight, just during the growing season!
Let's assume that the typical pond has roughly 125 pounds per acre of largemouth bass, ranging in size from juveniles to mature adults. Given this model, these individuals would consume as much as six-plus pounds of forage per day... over 40 pounds in a week ... and more than 1,300 pounds in a growing season. This is for one acre!"".

David:

I agree with Bill on the options that you have with the forage pond. Just remember that the species of Tilapia that you stock in Texas don't survive water temps much below 60°F range and will die when water temps drop below 50°F or so.

My pond was (and still is to an extent) forage light in regards to LMB. I stocked non-feed trained LMB in the beginning, but when I noticed them eating themselves out of house and home, I stocked 39 feed trained LMB that I tagged and have a standing rule that every LMB not tagged comes out, no matter what the size. 2" or 5#, if it isn't tagged, it comes out. I don't have a lot of cover in there for the forage fish to hide in, so the LMB eat a LOT of them. Too many, I'm afraid. That's why I am switching over to feed trained LMB. I can cut down on the amount of forage fish they eat with pellets. They aren't all female, but as of last year any male seen on a spawning bed gets removed. Unfortunately, they still somehow manage to pull off a spawn and the YOY LMB still eat a lot of YOY forage fish.

Take a look at this relative weight chart. Pay attention to the length/weight of the LMB.
http://www.fish.state.pa.us/images/pages/fishin1/weightlength3.pdf

Look and see how much a 17" to 18" LMB should weigh.

In October of 2012, I removed a LMB that was 17.5" long and 4 1/4#. (No tag, so it was removed). I could not tell if it was that size because of learning how to eat pellets, or just because it had plenty of forage fish to eat. The previous year I had added over 2,000 2"-4" BG to the pond, and annually stock 40#-50# of Tilapia along with feeding the fish in the pond. The year before that I also added somewhere between 1,000 and 2,000 2"-5" BG to the pond.

It's taken me 5 years to start to rectify my mistake of having too many LMB in the pond for the amount of forage in it. It's taken a combination of adding a LOT of forage along with removing a LOT of LMB. You have the opportunity to shave 4-5 years off of your learning curve if you jump on top of the problem now.

From your responses, I know you don't want to hear this, but to achieve your goals YOU HAVE TOO MANY LMB IN YOUR POND. Let me repeat that. YOU HAVE TOO MANY LMB IN YOUR POND. Living in the climate that you do, you have the potential to grow much larger LMB in your pond than we do up here if you get the right genetics in there. Do you know if the LMB you stocked are Northern strain, Florida strain or F1's?

If I was down there and that was my pond, I'd get all the LMB out of there before they spawn this year and restock with good genetic feed trained LMB, going with straight females if at all possible like Bill said. If done right, I'd bet you could be catching 4-5 pound LMB in 2 years or less.

By leaving all those LMB in your pond you will run into a wall in regards to carrying capacity in your pond. Remember, a pond can only support around 100# of LMB per acre, maybe a bit more if they are pellet trained and you also supplement their forage fish food base. But, remember they need Oxygen to survive, and the more pounds of fish in there, the more O2 they need.

More fish than standard carrying capacity also results in reduced water quality. Reduced water quality is stressful to fish, thus fish will eat less and grow less during stressful water quality conitions, thus you are losing growth rate of all existing fish. As Bob Lusk says "every day that the bass does not fill its belly is one day it does not grow."

To get to 10 lbs it needs to grow every day. Good year round water quality is important for growing trophy fish. It is not an accident that some waters consistently produce trophy class fish. All of B.Lusk's four needed 'features' or conditions noted in my post above need to 'come together' for the ability to have trophy fish water. Fish over crowding is not one of those 'features'.

Here are just a few words and just couple of the several requirements from Bob Lusk about growing big bass that are in the trophy category.
""When a bass can eat those smaller bass, its world changes. Its behavior changes, its food chain changes and its growth rates change.
Bigger bass have larger habits. They dominate the best habitat. They eat whatever they want. A six pound bass will readily eat a two pound bass.!!!!!!!!!
So, the keys are:
Provide habitat for all sizes of each species you need.
Make sure you have adequate amounts of the right size food sources at the right time.
Cull young, slow growing fish...keep catch records and pay attention to body condition of your fish.
Genetics are important.
Get bass from fingerling to 16.5" as fast as possible.""

With Greg Grimes' bass growing philosophy and methods you can grow bass from fingerling to 16"-18" in one year given a 10-11 month growing season. 4" to 18" is 1.27" per month growth rate. This equates to a growth rate of about 1.07 mm/day for 11 months. The fish has to be growing every day to reach the trophy size category.

What Bill describes can be done. It will take work. The concept to worry about is carrying capacity. It is dangerous and difficult to run the engine that is your pond at full capacity for long periods of time. Shoot for a few less LMB and a little more room for error. You could also add a bonus fish (a few HSB) and cut down on the CC and LMB. Water quality will be critical especially if you are prone to drought.

Cody note - reduced water quality for whatever reason including drought results in the predators not feeding. We know by now what happens when the bass are not feeding. More stress events will occur more frequently as 'ewest' suggests when the pond is above carrying capacity. As fish grow and gain weight the standing stock increases and carrying capacity becomes over loaded. This is why beginning with fewer large bass per acre is beneficial in the long term. Growing big bass is not easy nor simple.