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#36854 10/27/02 07:25 PM
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I have turbidity since the beginning of a new pond in an old watershed area. The biologists have tested the water, and say that its filamentous algae with recurrent blooms and die offs. They recommend Copper sulfate, but the dose is unclear. Anybody tried this?

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You don't really have "blooms" of filamentous algae. This is usually micrsopic plankton which is beneficial for fish productivity. Filamentous algae is slimy green stringy, etc. Is this what you have? If so then treat with copper sulfate liquid. I mix 4 ozs/gal of water and mist the filamentous algae with the mixture. Too much copper will kill your fish especially in low hardness water, and some species (trout) are more susceptible to copper. Good luck!


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Factoid: Not all planktonic algae blooms are of single celled algae. Planktonic algae comes in all shapes, cell arrangements, and even up to macroscopic sizes.
Planktonic algae blooms can, at times, be composed primarily of filamentous algae, blue-green forms such as Anabaena, Aphanizomenon, Oscillatoria, Lyngbya or some filamentous diatoms which are arranged like juice cans end to end.. As with single cells, high numbers of these strands / filaments can color the water with a fog like appearence or form surface films of various colors usu greenish, but not always.
Many other types of common filamentous algae such as Spirogyra, Oedogonium, Mougeotia, Pithophora, some desmids, begin growth as small tufts growing attached to the bottom or some substrate. These are the types Greg refers to in the above post. These growths quickly expand to produce big, big masses which usu. break lose from the bottom and float on the surface. Often tiny sections of the growth mass break off at different times and become strands in part of the plankton community. Rarely do these single strand types form high enough numbers to cause blooms or problems.

NOTE: Greg's recommendation or treatment method/dose is primarily for floating masses of filamentous algae or skum. It can also work but not as effectively on filamentous strands stringing up from the bottom. To kill planktonic algae throughout the water column you will need a different approach or application method and chemical quantity.

Keep In Mind. Planktonic algae is the FOOD CHAIN BASE that drives or ultimately feeds the fishery in the pond. Eliminate it and you temporarily stop the development of the food chain and halt the fish growth / development progress until the plankton can recover and once again continue the flow of energy up the food chain that fuels the food development for the fish.

One should know the main types or the group/groups of algae responsible for causing the bloom before killing the bloom. Blue-green algae are not very beneficial as good food for the food chain whereas most all the other types or groups of algae provide a more 'tasty' & nutritious base for the food chain.


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Bill thanks for clearing up my comments. Question... you said a different method was better for clearing the "bloom" type algae, what do you suggest? I've cleared turbid bluegreen and green alage blooms so where fishing is not the main priority of the pondowner. I basically mix the same copper concentration just a much larger quantity and apply over the surface of the pond. It has worked great also to slowly kill off a bloom rather than having a massive crash resulting in a fish kill. Visibility pretreatment 8 inches post 3 day treatment 14 inches. Thanks, Greg


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Treatment of Planktonic Algae Blooms.
K. Duffie should also get involved with this discussion. Numerous variables here.

Most importantly when blue-green algae blooms are a problem, the water body is SCREAMING that it has too many nutrients & the nitrogen/phosphous nutrients are in an improper balance or ratio and favor blue-green algae growth. High densities of blue-greens (and duckweed) is a symptom or signal of over enriched highly eurtophic or hyper-eutrophic conditions (way too many nutrients).
Reduce the nutrient levels or change the ratios and the blue-green problems will go away and be replaced by more beneficial fish producing algae such as greens, cryptophytes &/or diatoms. .

COPPER SULFATE & Chelated COPPER TREATMENT -
1. Total water hardness plays a big role in the effectiveness of copper sulfate and the amount or lbs needed. Water hardness plays has MINOR influnce on the active copper in chelated copper algicides. Hardness of the water very quickly (often in minutes & usu less than 1hr) actively 'absorbs' or binds the copper ions or dissolved particles of copper from the copper sulfate, rendering it not as effective or inaffective/nontoxic. Higher hardness waters require increased amounts of C. sulfate to obtain effective & reactive kills; this is bad. Accumulating copper (heavy metal) from repetative treatments results in mineralized copper deposits in the pond sediments and over time starts reducing the "health of the sediments". Sediments need to be "healthy" for processing the organic muck.

Chealated copper products bypassses a lot of these problems because it incorporates VERY low amounts of elemental copper per dose. Since it is also "immume" to the water hardness it stays in the water column much longer for a longer kill time. Length of time in the water column depends primarily on the amount of suspended organic particulates (living & dead) which absorb and decrease the concentration of the chelated copper. Chelated copper can remain in the water column up to 1 or 2 weeks and new versions up to 4 weeks.

Note that my statement was "to kill planktonic algae THROUGHOUT the water column" a different approach and amount was needed. It just ment that one needs to get a distribution of copper sulfate throughout the zone or depth spread of the bloom to get the dissolved copper in direct contact with all the algae cells so a large percentage kill occurs. Copper is a direct contact killer. Big algae kills as you know can be bad by all the dead algae decomposing and oxygen is consumed in high amounts. In addition we have just killed most of the oxygen producers (microalgae) so now major oxygen shortages prevail.

Small surface applications or doses of dissolved copper sulfate during warm water blooms, I suppose when applied sparingly over a week or two, can be used to gradually kill or knock down blooms. However, blooms will ALWAYS eventully return if nothing is done to reduce or abate the algae food source NUTRIENTS.


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Thanks for all the information. I think that I do have a blue-green algae or green algae which recurrently blooms, and not filamentous algae. There is a dark greenish color to the entire water column with very low visability. After a thick bloom, the water becomes "muddy" with a reddish-brown color. It never seems to clear. I just had a small fish kill and I think its from the low DO level after the bloom dies. I realize that algae are beneficial for the food chain, but this isnt good for fishing or aesthetics. My pond is 4-5 acres so exactly how much do I put out? When? How often? How do I abate the algae food source nutrients?

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clowder - did you write down any of the names of filamentous algae that were 'tested'; did you get a written report? This will help in providing more info.


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No, I reviewed the report and he tested the ph which was ok. I think he just postulated that it was algae blooms, and didnt identify them.

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clowder - "Him postulating that it was an algae bloom and did not identify them" is like going to the doctor with a heart attack and him saying
"it looks like you just have heart burn; take some Malox or Tums and call me tomorrow if you still feel bad - postulating. Did the "biologists" come up with the filamentous algae as a cause for the bloom or was that your conclusion? Just trying to get some details.

In my opinion, testing the pH during an algae bloom is kinda like someone feeling your forehead for a fever if you are constipated - not much relationship between the two.


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BC - I almost hate to chime in. You've been doing great from my vantage point in the cheap seats. I did want to add something for thought. I'm presently conducting some field tests with an oxidizing agent for algae control (EPA registration pending). This granular product (moisture-activated) works rapidly on most forms of algae using a priciple simular to that which barley straw imparts. But, unlike barley straw, it may be used for localized & partial-area treatments. The enticing aspects of this product are 1) algal-impact is immediate, 2) yet, as an oxidizing agent, O2 and hydrogen are released as a RESULT of this product's interaction with algae, and 3) it is non-toxic to fish and has minimal impact on aquatic invertebrates. If interested, I'll let you know how the trials go.

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BC and KM enjoyed reading your post. Keep us informed of how your trial product is working.

I recently completed a project in August that I thought you would chime in about. I applied EatchTec (chelated copper) over an entire 165 acre and 100 acre water supply reservoir in GA. I'll just describe the 100 acre. It has had "smelly" water for several years in late summer months. MY old professor determined it to be MIB from Oscillatoria. The Oscillatoria lives at greater than 4 meters for most of the year and migrates toward the surface in August every year. Once reaching the intake level it becomes a problem. Therefore, this year I applied the EarthTec. Testing revealed no change after 2 weeks. I thought that sucks but hey I got paid for the application (will probably not be coming back). Then at 3 weeks things started to change. At one month the Oscillatoria was 1% of pretreament amount. EarthTec was right and it has been a big success. Folks around town have never had better smelling water in September. A girl is doing her thesis work on the migrating Oscillatoria and I went and threw in a curve ball. So yes BC your are right it apparently stayed in suspension until binding to the most prevalent organic the Oscillatoria.


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KD - I have a good guess as the to new product; I suspected someone would come up with it since barley straw seemed to have a fairly good success rate. I am very interested in results from trials; residuals sound good. Localized treatment is definately a plus. PS We are still planning some Curtine tests this winter; haven't forgot, plus I need to know.

GG - I occassionally get an Oscillatoria up here (OH) that acts like the one in the 100 ac res you described. Our troublemaker was O. rubescens. Your bad guy may well be another species. Our (I assume Ohio) EPA will not let municipalities use chelated copper in their reservoirs. Probably because of the extended viability in the water column and potential for delivery to the public. They have to resort to CuSO4. Does 'our thesis girl' have an ID on the bad guy? Can I or you contact her for additional info?

PS If you didn't apply this way, you might want to, next time Oscillatoria treatment is necessary, try to inject the treatment deep into the distribution zone of the alga, a faster response may occur.


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BC- Im sorry but I think Ive been misleading you. I Asked the Biologist to come look at my pond because of stunted bream and a poor bass population. My pond is about 2 years old and some kid opened my turnstile and let almost all my water out the summer after I stocked it. I had a great population of bream to start with, but they became stunted. I couldnt hardly catch a bass so I asked him to evaluate the pond. He did a very basic eval. and found almost zero bass reproduction. He recommended restocking with 50 - 60 Adult Bass 1-4 lbs, which I did. I asked him about the green hue in the water and resulting muddy water after and thats when he told me it was algae blooms and dieoff. He tested the ph because he was there to evaluate the pond and not the algae. He did tell me to use the copper sulfate. What to do next?

PS I am a Doctor so I enjoyed the analogies!

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clowder - I may get some resistance here, but if it was my pond and it was 'young' like yours I wouldn't be using a heavy metal (CuSO4) on it so early in its life. Are you trying to grow fish in a swimming pool and what do you expect them to eat under those clear water conditions?? Keep in mind that metals are stable & tend to remain deposited in the environment and in living systems. Copper has been reportred to collect in muscle & brain tissue, liver, with acute toxicity it can be found in brain, liver, stomach, hair roots, and urine. Symptoms of acute Cu toxicity are gastric ulcers, hemolysis, jaundice, hepatic necrosis, and renal damage. Some studies have associated Cu with "pink disease" in infants, biliary atresia, & cirrhosis in children, atherosclerosis, and hypertension. Affects on the various systems of the pond environment are not yet so thourghly studied, but they are gradually working on it. I predict we will soon see CuSO4 banned for use in ponds. Cu is on EPA priority pollutant list, and is considered a hazardous substance by C.E.R.C.L.A. and a toxic chemical by S.A.R.A.

Anyway very difficult to have clear water AND raise numerous or lots of 'nice' fish in a small water body. Clear water will only produce a few 'nice' big fish per acre. Maybe you are expecting to grow too many 'nice fish' per acre in clear water. Green hue to the water is kind of like blood with (cloudyish) and without (clearish) nutrients in it. How does the body function without nutrients?
I looked above for pond size, ave depth, max depth, goals for pond and did not find any. I could be a little more helpful if I had a patient history and what the patient expected out of life. Bill Cody aka "The Pond Doctor".


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BC-Oscillatoria agardhii was the main one. I plan to wirte this project up for future water supply work. I may get you a copy for review since you know way more about copper than I even want to know. The Rep from EarthTec seemed to think our subsurface application would work just as good as injecting. No complaints here, it worked and was easier that way. Thanks, Greg

P.S. heading to Iowa on a bowhunt. Will have to catch up on post when I get back.


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Pond Doc:

My pond is 4.5 acres in size and has a maximum depth of 12 feet. Average depth is about 4 to 5 feet. I am an avid bass fisherman and I have two young boys and I want them to enjoy good fishing in a small pond. This was an old pond site that had grown up over the past 20 years. I designed the pond with bass fishing in mind. I have deep creeks which run thropughout the pond with lots of various cover. The banks have a fairly steep slope and my shallow end is at least 3 feet throughout. My primary goal is good bass fishing, not necessarily trophy, but with some "nice" fish mixed in. I realize the benefit of phytoplankton to the food chain. I dont care too much what the pond looks like if the fishing was good. However, the water color is so turbid that it seems to make the bass fishing poor. Also, A friend of mine had the same algae blooms and he just had a major fish kill and had to start over. I have also recently had a fish kill with several hundred small bream dead on the edge of the pond. Therefore, Ive been told to use the copper sulfate to get rid of some of the algae. Im more than willing to leave all the "nutrients" if I had good bass fishing. I hope that explains all my symptoms and goals so the doctor can go to work Ill be glad to trade medical questions for pond questions Thanks for the help

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clowder - 1. Is the water still cloudy and appearence of bloom still present?

2. You or the boys (jr. High or +) make your self a visibility tester (secchi disk). Get a white plastic lid abt. 7-8" dia (Kool whip lid okay). Put a hole in the center, put a 4 to 6 ft string or small dia cord thru center and knot end so it won't come out hole. Meassure how deep the disk disappears when lowered into the water.

3. Let's get a lab test / analysis (microscopic)of the pond water. A good Doctor can't do much for a serious elusive problem with confidence w/ out a "blood test". See my Oct 31, 02 post to Pottsy under heading: Balance of Plants in Environment / topic; Temperature Range for Plankton on how to get and preserve some pond water. You got health insurance and do you need a listed provider?; just kidding. All it will cost you is the postage. Any questions before we start treatment?


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G. Grimes - I would like to have a copy of the report for review.


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Thanks. Im working on the secchi disk and the collection of the water. Where do I send the water sample?

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clowder - see email for shipping address. BC


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BC

Please email me at clowder@ftc-i.net.
My other Email isnt working.

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clowder - I rcvd the water sample 12 Nov., that was collected 08 or 09 Nov 02. Preservation good. Keep in mind that the results are good only for the general time period of late Oct or early Nov. because phytoplankton is always changing and any different colored water is usually caused by different species associations. Greg G. got this right in his earlier post above - no filamentous taxa causing a problem here. A general summary follows; I will email you a detailed species and density list soon. Have you checked the water clarity yet with the white 'visibility' disk?
Sample was analyzed at 400X and 1000X for various factions of the sample; large vs small.
Numbers are in cells per milliliter (cc)
Bluegreens (Cyanobacteria) 106,640
Picoplankton 1-2um dia 35,325
Greens (Chlorophyta) 132,698
Euglenoids (Euglenophyta) 400
MICROFLAGELLATES 20,724
Diatoms (Bacillariophyta) 6,594
Total algal cell density 302,381

In addition to microalgae the detritus particles organic and inorganic (suspended, nonliving solids) were 0.1-1um dia 533,440/ml
1-5um dia 133,360/ml
This equates to total suspended algae of 8,950,477 cells/ounce of water and
15,789,800 smallest particles/ ounce
3,947,500 tiny particles/ ounce for a grand total of 28,687,777 tiny things in each ounce of water. Unbelievable!, unless you always look at water with a microscope. These densities are pretty normal for water visibilities of 2.5 ft (30"). clowder says his water was "clearer" when he colledted the sample as compared to earlier when he was having cloudier water problems. WOW. The numbers of particles were even higher back then.
Plenty in this water for zooplankton to eat, which may be part of the problem not enough grazers to thin the phytoplankton.
clowder's pond is in SC and the summer bloom is probably starting to "slow" down for the winter. Since the water has 30" ov visibility and gradually clearing you may not need to do anything to make it clearer. clowder - How clear do you want your pond to be?


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Cody- how much for a test like that?? if you don't mind me asking? I will definently use your service in the future because once a microscope is needed for id.... Thanks, Greg


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Thanks for the info. The current clarity would suit me fine, however, I dont think it will stay that way once it warms back up. It was literally filled with a puke green color from March through September. I didnt have my "secchi disc" then but I bet the visability was less than 10 inches. The algae would "bloom" and then die causing a dark muddy brown color with little visability. If I could have a great fishing pond then I could care less about the clarity. However, I worry about low DO when this bloom dies. I think this fertility is from a watershed from old farming fields draining into this pond. What do you think I should do?

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clowder - My email to you is getting returned when I use the most recent note you sent to me (11/13/02). Try emailing me and I will try to reply with some details.


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