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#367398 02/26/14 11:06 AM
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Its been a pretty rough winter this year. We have been iced over on the pond for quite a while now and for about a month the pond was snow covered. I am pretty stressed about the RES. Anybody have any thoughts about their survivability in the winter. I was told in new BOW that winter kill was pretty rare, but I am still a rook. The pond is very lightly stocked so I am thinking the oxygen reservoir should have been pretty large for the fish in it.

~2 Acres
30 RES
15-CC
3lbs GSH + whatever spawned last year
3lbs + tons spawned last year

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Wow that's a lot of room for just those fish! If that's all that's in there I don't think a D.O. problem should be an issue. I would be more worried about maybe some dying from the cold than D.O. Unless of course you have some real bad water issue that we don't know about. I think you will be fine.

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The only difference between a rut and a Grave is the depth. So get up get out of that rut and get moving!! Time to work!!
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Average and maximum pond depths play a big role as to how long DO will last in a pond under ice and snow cover. Newish ponds with low organic loads generally winter kill a lot less frequently than older shallow ponds.

Last edited by Bill Cody; 02/26/14 12:09 PM.

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RES can and will die from lack of DO under the ice, however I don't believe they are any ore susceptible to this than BG. The issue as RC51 eluded to is the temperature. RES are southern fish, with their native range barely making into the southern 1/4 of Illinois. Even there, they were naturally uncommon that far north. In northern areas, RES tend to do best in larger bodies of water where the water volume can regulate rapid changes in water temperature which I believe is the biggest killer of RES. They just can't handle fast swings in water temperature. Larger bodies of water take longer to warm and cool and thus help prevent these swings. Deeper bodies of water also help with this. If your pond has a fairly large area with deeper water, the RES can stay in that area. Water is most dense at just above 39 degrees F. This is right around the minimum temperature RES can tolerate for extended periods. When shallower waters begin to cool so much that the 39 degree refuge begins to cool, I think that is when RES struggle. You can also see this super cooling occurring in ponds that are aerated, especially incorrectly.

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My aquaponics got a heavy freeze for the first time last december (2013). I can confirm my redear were not anymore susceptible to the cold than my bluegill... at least with initial survive ability... but the stress did lower their immune system and they all got ick.. i brought them in to my indoor aquarium, salted to 3ppm and the ick fell off, they would have died if i left them outdoors. The couple of remaining bluegill didnt have ick and are still alive today in my ferro tank.




I posted a full freeze report with pictures on my aquaponics forum.. i apologize for linking another forum, i usually at least cut and paste it into a unique post here but i dont have time right now to upload the photos to my web site

http://www.backyardaquaponics.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=19949

it's not a competing forum and no ads

brian

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Thanks for all the good info guys. I am hoping that they will be alright.

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I'm interested in seeing what ice out brings to the ponds in my area concerning RES. Many of us opted to aerate all, or at least much, of the winter due to extended snow and ice cover. This has apparently cooled the water temps down below the 39 degree norm encountered at or very near bottom, in the "safe" refuge.

Perhaps regional adaptation has led to some slightly hardier RES in my area.....at least that's what I'm hoping for.


"Forget pounds and ounces, I'm figuring displacement!"

If we accept that: MBG(+)FGSF(=)HBG(F1)
And we surmise that: BG(>)HBG(F1) while GSF(<)HBG(F1)
Would it hold true that: HBG(F1)(+)AM500(x)q.d.(=)1.5lbGRWT?
PB answer: It depends.
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We are in the beginning stages of a long term plan for fish stocking. I am going to let the forage base build up for a few years before I put bass in. We are going to put some HSB in this spring but they are supposed to be feed trained. I am hoping that their impact on the bait fish will be low enough that they can maintain their numbers and even grow. We will see. Worst case I catch the HSB and let the bait fish catch back up a litle.

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Jakeroo, it's been my experience that if fed, HSB will prey on forage but will not put much of a dent into them. My FHM population which seems to be the most susceptible species to being extirpated from a pond due to predation has maintained itself even after the HSB were stocked. Now if they were not fed, there most likely would be different results.

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I'm currently researching the northern most geographic locations where RES can survive, and thought this link might be interesting to some....my apologies if it's been posted here before.

http://www.michigandnr.com/publications/pdfs/ifr/ifrlibra/technical/reports/2003-3tr.pdf


"Forget pounds and ounces, I'm figuring displacement!"

If we accept that: MBG(+)FGSF(=)HBG(F1)
And we surmise that: BG(>)HBG(F1) while GSF(<)HBG(F1)
Would it hold true that: HBG(F1)(+)AM500(x)q.d.(=)1.5lbGRWT?
PB answer: It depends.
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Originally Posted By: sprkplug
I'm currently researching the northern most geographic locations where RES can survive, and thought this link might be interesting to some....my apologies if it's been posted here before.

http://www.michigandnr.com/publications/pdfs/ifr/ifrlibra/technical/reports/2003-3tr.pdf


Good reading. It would be interesting to know where the original source came from that Michigan used for planting and broodstock. I'm hesitant to use an Arkansas source which is where many of the redears sold in our region come from.


If pigs could fly bacon would be harder to come by and there would be a lot of damaged trees.






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Yeah I get all my BG, RES and HSB just down the street about 15 miles away. That is nice but they are all born and raised in a warmer climate. Although it's been pretty dang cold here this year for Arkansas.

RC


The only difference between a rut and a Grave is the depth. So get up get out of that rut and get moving!! Time to work!!
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Originally Posted By: CJBS2003
Jakeroo, it's been my experience that if fed, HSB will prey on forage but will not put much of a dent into them. My FHM population which seems to be the most susceptible species to being extirpated from a pond due to predation has maintained itself even after the HSB were stocked. Now if they were not fed, there most likely would be different results.


Thanks for the knowledge here. I am hoping that I can repeat your results. I think my FHM population is pretty solid assuming they survived the winter. I also want to give the GSH and RES a year to spawn. If the lake is enjoyable with just RES/HSB, I will probably leave it like that. The more I read about BG and LMB on here, the more nervous I get about having them in our pond. I just don't think I can commit the time to managing the numbers that is required.

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Originally Posted By: sprkplug
I'm currently researching the northern most geographic locations where RES can survive, and thought this link might be interesting to some....my apologies if it's been posted here before.

http://www.michigandnr.com/publications/pdfs/ifr/ifrlibra/technical/reports/2003-3tr.pdf


Reading this gave me a little more hope for our fish. Michigan is a whole state above, which is a little bit more buffer than I previously thought I had.

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Jakeroo

You are right LMB and BG do require a little more effort to keep on track, but if done right they will start to do it for you. Then all your have to do is make sure you cull / harvest correctly. I have a 1 acre pond and I have CNBG/RES/HSB and LMB and they all are doing quite well.

Really the one main thing you need to watch is your RW of your LMB. That in itself will tell you a LOT of how your BG and BASS are doing.

RES don't spawn as much as BG but if you just go with HSB and RES you may still end up with a problem with the RES. HSB I dont think will conrol your RES population and they could still over populate. It's always something!!

RC


The only difference between a rut and a Grave is the depth. So get up get out of that rut and get moving!! Time to work!!
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You are right there. I wonder if CC could keep the RES in check. Just trying to think of "put and take" options.

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If the CC get large, possibly. I've never heard of a RES stunted pond like you hear with BG.


www.hoosierpondpros.com


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3/4 to 1 1/4 ac pond LMB, SMB, PS, BG, RES, CC, YP, Bardello BG, (RBT & Blue Tilapia - seasonal).
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Esshup if all he has in there is a certain number of HSB and RES and bait fish it may take a while but those RES will take over dont you think? Unless he has a lot of HSB in there. I think Eric once said that BG can have up to 35,000 babies each in a summer. So lets just figure low and say the RES may only have 5,000 per female. Sooner or later you would think that pond would get taken over by them without something else in there to feed on them other than just HSB. Or am I off base on that??

RC


The only difference between a rut and a Grave is the depth. So get up get out of that rut and get moving!! Time to work!!
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Don't forget that EVERYTHING in the pond eats YOY fish. From Dragonfly nymphs to adult RES. You could see recruitment as low as 1% after year 2.

http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1577/1548-8659(1946)76%5B190%3AROSAGO%5D2.0.CO%3B2#preview

I believe that those test ponds were only stocked with BG fry, and they tried to only have BG fry in them. Now throw predators in the mix and think about what the survival rate would be.....


www.hoosierpondpros.com


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3/4 to 1 1/4 ac pond LMB, SMB, PS, BG, RES, CC, YP, Bardello BG, (RBT & Blue Tilapia - seasonal).
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I suspect that larger RES eat way more YOY fish than most people realize. The five 8" RES that I currently have in my aquarium are eating 15-25 FHM in the 2" to 2-1/2" size range every single day.



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Redears are more carnivorous than bluegill. No doubt about that.


If pigs could fly bacon would be harder to come by and there would be a lot of damaged trees.






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Jakeroo Offline OP
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3-5 FHM a night seems pretty aggressive. Are they growing pretty fast?

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Yes, they are growing fast! They were a little over 3" at the end of May last year.

In addition to the FHM's they are also eating four sliced up nightcrawlers and three small frozen blocks of bloodworms a day, they would eat more if I let them.



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Just a small number of single sex LMB could help keep any RES reproduction under control. As they get too large, remove them and replace with smaller ones.

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Originally Posted By: Shorty
Yes, they are growing fast! They were a little over 3" at the end of May last year.

In addition to the FHM's they are also eating four sliced up nightcrawlers and three small frozen blocks of bloodworms a day, they would eat more if I let them.


What kind of biofilter does your tank have? With all the eating it would seem your fish would be producing a lot of ammonia.


If pigs could fly bacon would be harder to come by and there would be a lot of damaged trees.






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