Pond Boss Forums AQUATIC VEGETATION Balance of plants in the environment Water Lilies, Bullrush

I am thinking of planting some of these in my new pond in 2 shallow ends. There seems to be disagereement on the benefits to planting your own habitat or waiting for nature to take it's course.

The hatchery that sold me the fish also sells "Fancy European Pond Lilies" and advertise them as "domesticated limited growth". To me that would indicate that they would not spread as rapidly and need as much work. Is this correct?

This pond is in a fescue pasture( no livestock) and I want to provide some additional structure for insects and fish.

Which of the rushes, knob or bull would be the easiest to plant and control? Do they overwhelm a pond like cattails?

Mark, you will lots of good advise here. The most important, IMHO, is that it all depends. A plant that is a horrible monster in one area might barely survive in another. We'll give you lots of good general opinions but you need to look at some local lakes and talk to local experts to get a better idea.

Thanks Norm. Most ponds around here are agricultural and fish are an afterthought. I have not really found one that is managed for fish and wildlife per se like mine. The aesthetics are important to me because the house I am building overlooks the pond.

I guess I answered my own question then. The lilies and rushes would definitely make it look more attractive and provide cover.

If your knob rush is the genus Eleocharis then knob rush will be easier to manage. Be aware there are 29 species of Eleocharis (spike-rush) and 28 species of the bulrush group or genus (Scirpus). Each one has slightly and sometimes dramatically different growth habits. I highly suggest you know the species before planting.

I am not sure what "Fancy European Pond Lilies" are. I am not aware of any big name US water garden companies selling water lilies as European Lilies. Again I suggest you get some specific common names of the lilies and present them here so we can look them up and provide you with some educated guidance.

Bill,

The common names for the lilies are:

red gloriosa, alskan white, yellow sunrise, indiana, pink sensation, white gladstone, yellow chromestella and bronze commanche.

they don't say what genus the rushes are but I will attempt to find out. Thanks for the reply.

Here are some pics thanks to Bill.

The lilies you list are not unique to Europe. The original parentage was from Europe mostly France. Many of the original varieties were originally produced at the Latour-Marliac Nursery in France during the late 1800's and early 1900's. Numerous US water garden nurseries now have decendents of those varieties. Quite a few new varieties have been produced here in the US starting starting around 1910. As an example the pink sensation (leaf spread 4') was produced by Peter Slocum in 1947 from a seed mutation of stock from a Marliac rhizome. The Gladstone (leaf spread 5'-8') was produced in Ohio in 1897!.
Smallest spread of the above names will be Indiana, Chromestella and Comanche. Others have medium spread except the whites which tend to have a larger spread of the domestic or cultivated lilies.
Gloriosa leaf spread (ls) 5', "best red hardy"
Y.Sunrise ls 5'-8' large flowers, does not flower as well in zones 3-5, best in zones 6-10.
Indiana ls 30", free blooming "one of best changeables",
Chromestella ls 2'-3', overall best hardy yellow
Comanche ls 4'-5' orangish changable, prone to crown rot
My references do not list Alaskan white lily; be cautious of that one.
All of my lilies that ewest posted photos of above were varieties developed in the US by Peter Slocum; last photo is the pink sensation.

Get some Genus species names for the rushes and I can advise. The thin round stems in the lily photos are one specie of spike rush Eloecharis that I mentioned above.

WOW! the wealth of information that is free on this forum is outstanding! What if any of these would work in a high nutrient pond without too much extra work.

Wow! Thanks for the great replies. I take it that these lilies will look very nice in the shallow ends and not become a nuisance.

What about willow trees for banks? Yes or no. Do they really consume that much water that I should worry about it in a pond that MAY be prone to leaking or excessive evaporation.

Would silver maples look just as good? Any tree recoomendations to plant around a 2 acre pond would be appreciated.

Willow trees do indeed use a large volume of water.

IMHO Silver Maples are very soft and trashy; they lose a LOT of branches after they have gotten large. A harder species such as Red Maple would be a better choice than Silver.

From experience, as Theo said, silver leaf maples will soon develop galls, shed limbs, and look terrible. Drummond red maple, now in our front yard, is a thing of beauty. Willows, not only use much water, but will shed limbs which are just like seeds, only much larger. The roots will also make new bushes. A real disaster around a pond unless very closely monitored. I continue fighting willows, chinese tallows(the devil's curse) and sweet gum. I wouldnt plant a tree within 20ft of a pond.

I'm going to side with Burger on this one in reference to willows. My neighbor has two large willows within 20-30' of one of my ponds and the branch/leaf debris from them is frustrating at times.

You shouldn't use trees along your pond until you know that your pond can maintain a full-pool level. I would think a golden weeping willow would look great along a pond. There will be more maintenance if you want to keep an upkept look around the pond. But I like the natural look of things, so I'm going to have willows and poplars along my pond in the future. You could always have a bamboo grove along your pond, but that would probably consume alot of water, too.

Here is a thought. Plant a couple of redbuds and dogwoods near by. Two reasons (one) so you can enjoy them while at the pond but also , (two) the theory , often repeated and true at our place, is when the redbuds are blooming the LMB males are making nests and when the dogwoods bloom the LMB are spawning. Bill Dance and Doug Hannon informed me of that years ago and it has proved true as a general indicator. Also from In-Fisherman "As bass anglers commonly recount, the bass spawn peaks as the dogwoods reach full spring bloom. ".

Trees on pond banks result in the roots permeating the banks and any core trench / liner. Roots will losen the soil core. If the tree ever dies the integrety of the liner will be compromised and infused with a connected system of tiny openings or pathways for water movement. I have seen willow roots growing out of the underwater pond bank and it looked like fine whiteish to pinkish underwater weed growth. Not a good thing to have in a pond wall. I recommend keeping all trees back from the pond edge at least 40-60 ft if you value the core trench.

Bill Cody, when you mentioned leaf spread; is that the radius from center, diameter or what. I just planted some and have never seen how large the plants get. thanks

burgerm - yes, leaf spread is the estimated diameter of the leaf pattern of each plant. Generally this refers to a properly potted mature lily plant as it grows in a water garden "lily type" pond. In an earth bottom pond setting the lily rhizome (root) can grow and spread outward from a initial basal planting. My experience is the rhizome spread rate is directly dependant on the softness and thickness of the sediments and the variety of the lily. Thick soft mucky sediments allow easier spread of the lily roots. Hybrid lilies spread very slowly in new ponds with compacted sediments. Spread will be somewhat faster in new ponds if the lilies are planted in areas with lose topsoil.

Flowers of hardy water lilies are produced on the actively growing tips of each rhizome.

Thanks for the great replies. I think I will start by planting some ornamentals as suggested. Maybe a couple of plum trees for wildlife.

Just some outstanding advice in these old classic threads. I am fighting the dreaded former pond guy planted willows on the water's edge. Just an unmitigated disaster. I'm cutting trunks my 20" bar is too short for. About the worst tree you could plant right on the shore. They end up throwing suckers everywhere, bush out with multi trunks if cut and release way too many seeds into the air that end up on embankments and a dam where you just cannot have them. Even worse, they block access to the water and even viewing when they are leafy. The roots elevate up out of the soil underwater and sometime make more trees. Going to take years to fix that mess.

I've heard willows can be worse than cattails to manage/eradicate. They also have notorious thirst - not unlike the Eastern Cottonwood that we have growing at the water's edge on my ponds. At least a Cottonwood has some merit as a tree...

Yes. I'll vouch for that. Tomorrow I go cattail eradicating and test out the new cattail cutting head for Jensen Lake mower. Just putt putt in the aluminum boat and mow. Willows, not so fun. Tons of limbs and brush to cut and burn. Then if you let them go too long, huge multi branched trunks or giant trunks. Going to backhoe smaller ones, kill larger ones in place. I have entire shorelines blocked off from access and view. It's so bad I can only take on so many at one time. My estimate is 3 - 4 years. And forget throwing the limbs in for forage cover. I had one limb float over to an embankment and start 10 new trees. They have rooting hormone everywhere but the leaves. Barely provide shade, ugly as hell. Cut them and they get mad and expand. Massive thirsty root systems. I take down everything, oaks, pine, poison oak, blackberries, you name it. Willows are the worst of the worst. I'll take some photos.

Sounds a lot like Locust trees native to NE - these aren't a pond nuisance but have up to 6" razor sharp thorns and if you cut one 100 saplings will shoot up. Taking too tight a turn on the UTV and these things could blind you easily - or worse.

My new muskrats visitors mowed the few cattails for me last year - trading a problem for a PROBLEM.

The State of Cal dam inspector says I have to cut the cattails out of the spillway to prevent blocking and elsewhere because they are prime muskrat habitat. The muskrats are embankment and dam killers. But I have none because they are not protected and most assuredly don't survive head shots. Have a few pocket gophers but they will get gas bombed and cyanided. Have to keep the pond in compliance. They should call me dirty Frog as I get all of the nobody else will do it jobs.

Considering all the legislation I see these days I thought you were going to suggest CA protected Skrats! Glad to hear that's not the case. You're right, when I saw my cattails mowed I was elated for a brief moment - until I realized my banks and dam could soon be compromised due to their tunneling nature. I do have a mink that pays visits - and skrats are on their menu. I'm willing to lose an occasional BG, FHM and GSH to mink if they can keep my pond skrat free.

TJ:

Shoot them with white paintballs and call Rainman. He'll take care of them for you. Just make sure to paint any PVC laying around brown.

Ouch! Poor Rainman will never live that down...

This could be a problem! Scott has his great new 1500 yard toy, and I have to wait till I see the whites of his eyes.............Hmmm, will he have me deliver the tilapia, or drive the truck up after the test shot..........

Since 'rats are about 4"-5" dia, if you dope the wind correctly, it will reach out further than that to get them. Depending on how much coffee I had, it's running between 1/4 and 1/2 MOA c-c groups.

With a good background (i.e. tree) my rangefinder is repeatable to 2K yds. It's the wind that gets me. According to my ballistics program, the bullet is still supersonic past 2500 Yds.

OK, ordered 5 new varieties from Dusty and Jess and Texas Water Lilies. That will bring me up to over 20.

Peaches and Cream.
Nymphea Orodato
Munkala Ubon
Glori Du Temple
Almost Black

For those of you who don't know they come bareroot, so I have special soil all lined up ready to go. I also have some floaters ready from some drought tolorant types I am working on developing for my neck of the woods. I will get some photos as Texas Water Lilies is going to have a customer section also. Everything wholesale except the Almost Black.Price coming down on those but still too high for the plant. A bit of hype there but customer ordered from me.

Also doing some heavy work eradicating Willows, which will fit in this thread also. Going to chainsaw and backhoe those bad boys. Photos there also.

What is your special soil mixture for the water lilies?

You would be amazed but I found this abandoned beaver pond. And yes I have photos. This was in an old creek, just passing through a nothing field with wild grasses with lots of quail, dove and pheasants. Naturally with urban sprawl they built up all around it. I mean within 50 feet. The beavers started eating up all of the trees, so they wire meshed the trunks. Then they put all of the street drainage in to a large collection basin dumping just upstream of the beaver's pond. Beaver's hate that, hate dirty water they cannot control. So they left. And moved upstream where they still live. Within 20 feet of some people's back fence. So after 20 years this pond, which was hard pan clay bottom filled in. Maybe 24-30 inches of silt and soil, zero muck. It has 4 inch wide cracks all the way down to the hard pan.

I have never seen anything even close to this. The soil is incredibly fertile, well broken down slow release nutrients, completely weed free. A large cattail marsh in front of it filters everything out. But nothing grows in it. No algae, no bottom plants, nothing. I get a dozen 5 gallon buckets and load up chunks. As big as I want, they won't even fit in a bucket. It is gray bottom soil. If I hit the bottom, it is red clay, and does not budge. It dries out every season, and is very shallow. So I bring home the chunks, store them in planters and blend them with black muck, which is full of ready avaible nutrients.

I have ordered hundreds of lilies bareroot from Texas water lilies, and have never had a no show. I can make the soil any consistency, from almost soupy to modeling clay, depending on how much water content I add or subtract. Let me get some photos posted.

I'm gonna have to talk at you about water lilies Pond Frog. I have two places in the pond that I want to put them but the water level in our pond varies so much I'm not quite sure how and where to plant them.

As always, big thanks to my guy Omaha, who makes this forum a better place.

Photo #1 is a beaver den from the upper bank looking down. You can see slide and external water entrance.

Photo #2 is same den from side. That is why they say busy beavers. Inside will be a tunnel going directly to water. I have seen it before they built this den over it. This is less than 15 feet from somebody's backyard.

Photo #3 is there old pond. depth of this hole is about the same as a 5 gal bucket. Full size shovel and a shotgun shell perfectly preserved except some rust around the primer, unfired. It was below the gray bottom dirt, above the hardpan, when people still hunted here. A low base #8, 12 guage dove load. I imagine somebody dropped it around 1982 or so.

Photo #4 same hole but better lighting. You can see the hard pan bottom. You can also see the dark mosit bottom of the chunk with the shell on it. This is underwater in the spring, but the cracks are always there, even when it is full of water.

Photo #5 same hole but different angle and distance for reference. You can see my work gloves on a large chunk I bring home. This is at the very edge because those cracks are ankle breakers if you fall in and fall over. They are over 4 inches at most spots.

Photo #6 same chunk with gloves on top looking downstream. About a football field long. Just does not change. Year after year, fills full of water, dries out in Summer. Any new material just falls in cracks, which are a good 24-30 inches deep. No algae, no muck. All of the bullfrogs and turtles leave for the cattails upstream.

Photo #7. This is the upstream pond where the beaver den is, that was probably what it used to look like. There are some cattails but this is battle of the nastiest marginals, parrot feather and water primrose. It is mostly a draw. Neither one can over take the other, but nothing else can hang with them.


There are many dry spots all along this creek, which crosses both H99 and I5. But nothing remotely close to this. Maybe a couple inch cracks and muck, but that is it. I can take this pond bottom and store it in chunks for years. It never floats, never clouds water and has no weeds in it. When I blend it with black muck I have fast release nutrients and slow release nutrients. So my soil mix is ideal for lilies and marginals, similar to what they would thrive in at a pond.

Again, thanks to Omaha for helping me with photos.

I'll work with you on that and am working on new strains that handle our drawdowns in El Dorado county. It is very tricky and I do consult Dusty from TWL on that exact subject. He says the same thing in good ol boy speak. "Man those conditions it would be hard for anything to survive." Gotta like Dusty. At least he is honest. So we are trying to factor in what features of the strains actually will work under those conditions. I'll try some more along with the proven strain I already have. The key besides a working strain is depth. They can't be too shallow, or too deep. They find their sweet depth on thier own if I don't get it right. And like our forum brother Dave I'll hook you up for close to nothing. Maybe just a chance to catch trophy gsf. You have my commitment, we will give it a try this season when water draws down.

Sounds great!

Hey guys, keep the burgermeister informed with your program.
I just transported 10 lilies that were planted in cat litter boxes in Top soil/sand mix for 7 hrs. I planted them in Feb. They had a rough ride; some soil bounced out, then it packed, but roots are still in tact. rhizomes half uncovered. Will add more soil today. Luckily they were the Orodatas and not the pricey ones. As Jeff, my pond is over full now, but will be pretty low by June. Hope I can get the well going and there is water down there. wish I had some of that dirt, Frog.

I'd like to get some for my pond but my water stays pretty muddy. Will they get started growing with little sunlight? My pond is pretty bare now due to having it renovated last year so my wife is wanting me to get something growing around/in it. Or she just wants me out of the house! Is there a variety that grows very well with my comditions?

Muddy water seems to be a hindrance. Looks like as with any other plant growing from the bottom, they get going faster with clear water. But somehow some way, lilies manage to find the surface. But I know of a winery pond that has a couple of patches in Amador county. Similar drawdown, and that water is always murky. At least when I have seen it. They are going to donate or trade a few this year, as they have two varieties I can't get elsewhere. And they seem to be acclimated for a nasty drawdown. Depends if they are tuber/rhizomes because they have to store that moisture and energy when they are out of water. At least that is what Dusty and I think. Big rhizome and fast spreaders. But to be honest, most of mine are in fairly clear water.

I ordered 5 of those this batch to get wholesale. They are not pricey like the other ones I ordered. You wouldn't think so, but lilies to have preferred depth. What I can do with Jeff's is take some of mine, that appear to have crowns and relocate them when they are dormant on a drawdown. They will just overwinter somewhere else. They should emerge next Spring. Mine are already.

I have experimented with several types of soil mixtures, trying to emulate pond bottom conditions lilies flourish at. Can't buy that kind of soil at the chain stores. You try any of that and it just floats away. I try to pot the bareroot stock as I have to do something with the plants when they arrive, and it gives me time to get them growing and find them a home in earthen ponds most of the time. Keeping them in pots just does not do them justice. Inhibits flowering, growth and reproduction. Kind of dwarfs them like a bonsai. But I have some mini varieties even in wine barrel ponds.

What depth do the lilies do the best at? Could a platform be made that will support a container (or containers) filled with soil, and then floated with the platform at "X" depth? Unfortunately I don't have any idea on aestitec floats other than duck decoys.

I feel like your secretary Richard. Haha. Thanks for the kind words. Your continued contributions are wonderful.

If you look at texaswaterlily website each variety listed has an ideal depth. And they all differ. If you have the means, plant them directly in the ground, they just never fulfill thier potential in containers. Even dropped in a pond. The only reason I ever use containers is to limit growth. Or temporary holding. What I see is when I plant them they search out thier own ideal depth. They will move to different depths, either shallower or deeper. Once they find what the are looking for they start moving laterally, fast, along the same depth. They cannot do that in a container. What I like about lilies, besides thier obvious beauty is they provide shade and bass will hover under them in the Summer. They are very thin stemmed and the same fish will swim right through a patch, under it. They are average on forage cover, maybe below average. There is nothing like walking a popper or a frog across the pads and have a bass explode on it from underneath. Just a rush.

PF, I was thinking of JHAP's pond (like mine) with the severe water depth fluctuation.

Sadly lilies are not made for severe water movement. Even Dusty from TWL says he is suprised mine made it. I have to be honest, that is an uphill battle with little chance of success. Sorry.

I'd love to experiment with water lilies at our pond. We do have severe water depth fluctuation, in a "normal" year a 5 to 6 feet vertical drop is not unusual. Drought years are more like 7 to 8 feet. I had read quite a bit about water lilies and thought that I would have to plant them in a container and then move the container along with the drop in water level - that would just add one more thing to the "ranch to do list" - heck I can't get half the things done that I want to do on a regular basis as it is.

But I'm up for any experiment.

I haven't had a chance to read Bill Cody's article on Water Lilies in this issue of PB magazine - we just got our magazine yesterday. Ricki got all excited when she opened the magazine and saw Bill's article - guess I'm gonna have to wait until she's done reading the magazine before I can get my paws on it.

Well my drought busting strain is just excelling. I need to figure out why it is successful and add a few more types with different colors. I also went with some deep depth planting first time last season. When pond was all the way down I planted some about 8-9 feet below surface, including some droughtbusters. I planted about 7 different types, kind of thinking sacrificial lambs but at least half of them have made it to the top, and one is flowering already. But since I was so skeptical I did not label what went where, but I know what types, so I need to see flowers. I think deep growers is better than droughtbusters because they will be in the water many more months during drawdown.

And the droughtbuster flowers are just fantastic. Just huge flowers and dozens per patch. Very, very early. Big flowers and big leaves, I have four years field testing on those. I am thrilled. I wish I would have planted them in the front of the pond instead of way in the back where they are hidden from the nonfishing residents. After this storm I'll go back and get some photos. I was mostly thinning bulrush and cattails. Avoiding the nesting coots.