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jturbo Offline OP
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Hi all,

Another New Pond person that should have done more research before building.

I was having some driveway work done last summer and became enamored with daming off the end of one of the valleys on my property.

The resulting lake should be about 1/3 to 1/2 Acre when full.
The Max Depth is around 16 Feet, but most of the pond would be around 6-10 feet.

It has been leaking about 3 inches per day over the last month or so, but has been filling none the less as we have been getting a lot of rain. Currently 60% full, I would estimate. About 3-4 foot left to go.

We had a huge dry spell between July - Feb, so the pond just began filling in earnest in Mid Febuary. However, even when it was only 4-5 few feet deep, it was leaking down, but I didnt measure by how much per day.

The operator has experience with building ponds and didnt seem to treat it as any big deal. So I didnt think to research the kind of things that should be done to be successful.

IN general, in my area north 20 north of Lexington KY, the SOIL is pretty much all Clay with lots of floater slab limestone rock. No sand or anything like that.

There are a fair number of ponds, I feel that most people are able to build ponds without going to unusual measures.


Anyway, my operator dug clay out of the valley bottom and moved it with a large track (325Cat) hoe to form the DAM core, which was dug down 8-10 feet below the level of the valley floor.

As the core went up, we used used Clay with some smaller rocks in it, and sifted out the larger floater rocks. Where I am is full of limestone floater/slab rocks that dont seem to negate the possibility of pond building.

We did track in the core with a dozer and with the track hoe, but didnt use a sheepsfoot as it was rented out the days that we needed it. It was also dry, which is another issue, as I understand now.

Anyway, The toe of the dam has a wet spot about 20 foot across that stays wet, and continues to flow ( Maybe a couple gal/min) after the rest of the are has stopped draining. A few days after a rain, it will essentially stop flowing, but stay wet. Is this likely to settle and seal?

The front side of the dam has developed a number of fairly wide cracks, and has settled a foot or two in a couple of places. Over the main part of the core, it has not really settled or cracked.

It doesnt seem possible that I am losing maybe 20-30 thousand gallons a day thru the wet spot in the dam, so I think that something else may be going on.

Is it possible that the pond is just soaking in with that amount of water loss?

Thanks for any thoughts.

John

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It will soak in alot of water. The wet spot your talking about is on the back side of the damn?

"Anyway, The toe of the dam has a wet spot about 20 foot across that stays wet, and continues to flow ( Maybe a couple gal/min) after the rest of the are has stopped draining. A few days after a rain, it will essentially stop flowing, but stay wet. Is this likely to settle and seal?"

Kinda confused on this part.. If its leaking all the way through the damn at the bottom. I would consider starting over..


I believe in catch and release. I catch then release to the grease..

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If your dam has "settled" and is cracking...it was most probably 1) not compacted at all or 2) the clay was far too dry to be compacted.....either problem is compaction....with the large cracks...I highly suspect the dam was built in very dry weather since you have "big cracks" in the dam.

If the clay had a high enough, yet not to high, of moisture, the clay could have been compacted and made into one solid structure. Dry clay can hold shape, but allows it to absorb too much water and push apart by swelling and pushing outward. As the clay releases the moisture, it shrinks and cracks...The settling in this case is not settling at all, it is erosion of small amounts of clay washing away every time it releases the moisture.

Right now, the cheapest fix may be to drain the pond before it silts in, get either the original dirt worker or a better one to take off the inside 2-3 feet of the dam and re-compact it properly in 6" lifts for at least a 3' thick blanket. I wouldn't be at all surprised if compaction wouldn't reduce the dam height by 2 feet or more. If the clay was too dry and it sounds like it was....the entire pool area of the pond may need to be compacted also.

The "core" of a dam should be dug down however deep is needed to find good clay the entire length of the berm and the hillsides. Then the core is tied in and compacted in 6" lifts...never just piled spread and run over a few times with tracked equipment.

Also, since the clay was too dry, it simply can not be compacted at all...not even a sheep's foot roller would have helped.

Most reputable builders would fix this problem quickly...if it was their fault...if the clay was in fact dry and couldn't be compacted, a "qualified" pond builder would have made it clear to you there would likely be problems and wanted to add water or wait till a good soaking rain came....or would have refused to build it at all. If he informed you of any issues and you said to build it anyway...well, you're the boss.

For what it's worth, tracked equipment while being heavy are designed to cause MINIMUM compaction...the weight is spread out over a the tracks...a large area...similar to using snow shoes to keep from breaking through deep snow.

Try to approach the builder in a way that doesn't come across as "you either fix it or else" because he'll choose the "or else"...He may be willing to fix it on his dime, if you are willing to wait till he has some free time to return. Ponds never come with a "No Leak" guarantee, and the builder has already been paid. His only incentives to repair the pond are his pride in his workmanship and how much he values his reputation.
.

Last edited by Rainman; 03/12/11 01:51 AM.


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John---- welcome to the forum the people here are a lot of fun and most of us have had some of your problems.
Is the material the same from the top all the way down to the sixteen foot depth?
You said there was an 8 to 10 foot core below the valley floor. Did you get a look at that material?
Did they stop at a rock formation?
When there is a dry spell and not much water to begin with, you said 4 or 5 feet, the water loss could be from evaporation as much as seepage.
The wet spot on the back side of the dam is not good but all dams leak some, I have seen them get better with time. The book says when new water comes into the pond from rain it will carry silt from upstream and settle. DO NOT COUNT ON THAT AS A FIX FOR THR PROBLEM.
The cracks on the front are they from clay shrinking or something else?
I have been dancing around the possibility that the contractor did a bad job because I am one of them. It would be a good idea to have him take a look. DO AS RAINMAN SAID USE HONEY NOT VINIGER.
One last thing if you are losing two or three inches a day with water coming in,,,it should be showing up somewhere if not it is going down-That is usually a material problem.

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Thanks for the replies folks.

Let me clarify a little.

The Wetness and Flow is on the back side of the dam, below the water level, primarily where the DAM intersects at the valley floor.

It has not rained in a couple of days now, but there is a small flow of water still draining ( I am guessing couple gallons/minute). My past experience is that it will slow and come to a stop but the wet spots will remain wet. But that may no longer be true now that the water level is up higher.

With regards to the cracking.
It is related to the water side of the DAM. Essentially it is like the clay on the water side is sloughing downward into the water.
And the cracks have formed along the top of the dam as the front side has sloughed off. IN some places the cracks are 6- 12" wide.

From the mid point of the core back, there is no cracking/settling, but from the midpoint forward towards the water, there are increasingly bigger cracks and sinkage. In some places the cracking and sloughing has moved the dirt several feet down towards the water.


As I have been thinking back on the building process, there were several days during the week of construction that work was stopped by rain and we did have to pump out the basin one morning. However, we were digging down 5-10 feet to accumulate the clay. Maybe the clay was still too dry. When we were working, it seemed pretty dry, but I dont know how to quantify. Once the pond went in, there was no rain for about 5 months.

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Otto,

Where I live, it is fairly hilly and my pond is long and narrow as it goes up the valley.

The only water that I see is the relatively small amount coming from the base of the DAM. It doesnt seem possible that this could account for the amount of water loss. It is 3" per day virtually every day I have measured.


The material that came out from down in the core was a mxture of Clay and slab rock. Where I am, it is alternating layers of Clay/Slab rock. That dirt was put on the backside of the backside of the DAM behind the core as it was too rocky to be used for the core.

I dont recall if the bottom of the core was clay, or rock, probably a mixture though.

The bottom half of the core was pretty clean clay brought in from further up the valley, we allowed some more rock in the upper part of the core but cleared out any of the larger rocks that we came across.

The drainage that the pond resides is a dry drainage, only flows during a storm. Normally there is little to no water entering the pond.

I dont think we hit any big/solid rock outcroppings on the sides of the valley.

I suspect that most of the water is going out the sides of the lake as there is no real liner. We simply dug out the sides to gain clay for the dam, but paid no effort to accumulating valley clay towards lining the basin.


Just a humorous to me observation. Probably related to all men. I am obsessing about this pond! Now that I am seeing it filling, I absolutely thinking it could be awesome in a way I never appreciated when I decided to do it. This could really turn into a money pit tho!



Thx,
JOhn

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I will probably let it sit a few months while I get thru the spring rains. Maybe a miracle will happen and it will slow down with the leaking. Is there a leaking pond rain dance kind of thing I should consider?

It sounds like I need to line the DAM and the Basin with a foot or two of clay and probably some bentonite/pondseal/ess13 kind of stuff.


To compact/line the dam, would it be better to tear it out and redo the core? Or would it be good enough to dig back the face and then use the sheepsfoot compact the face in lifts as the dirt is put back?

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I would choose Sodium Bentonite, if it were my pond, for a proved, permanent solution.

You may want to contact your original builder and the local NRCS Agent to consider all the best options on how to proceed. Re-building the core may be the best soultion, but is going to be very expensive or not even be the problem at all.

Last edited by Rainman; 03/12/11 03:48 PM.


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Hey All,

Some interesting news. I went walking down the valley onto a neighbors property and discovered spring a that is now flowing at about the rate that I estimate the pond to be leaking. This spot was always held a little bit of water but would dry up in warm weather. It is now flowing like a mini stream, which I had not seen in the past.

I am not sure if that is good news or not?

At least I know that most of the water that is disappearing from the pond is reappearing in one place.

Maybe when the pond drains down, I will be able to tell where the flow is leaving the pond.

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My first thought is the basin of your pond is leaking. There should have been no exposed rock left in the basin when compacted as the porous sandstone/limestone slab rocks will provide a convenient pathway to the groundwater system.

It is sounding more and more like you will have to line the entire pool area with a good, clean, well compacted clay blanket. (2' thick, compacted in 6" lifts and stitched together well).

Try adding a heavy amount of pond dye to your pond water and see if the "new spring" water changes color...Then you'll know if your pond is the source.



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I am wondering if my settling/cracking on the front side of the DAM might be an indication of the area under which the water could be flowing. It is curious to me that there is one area where the cracking has occurred, but the rest of the DAM has not settled or cracked.

Does anyone know if there is a DYE tht would mark the soil that the water it drawn thru? That could help pinpoint the leaking area.

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Originally Posted By: jturbo

I am wondering if my settling/cracking on the front side of the DAM might be an indication of the area under which the water could be flowing. It is curious to me that there is one area where the cracking has occurred, but the rest of the DAM has not settled or cracked.

Does anyone know if there is a DYE tht would mark the soil that the water it drawn thru? That could help pinpoint the leaking area.




Man if there were an easy way to find a leak, life would be MUCH easier for pond owners!!!

It is possible the cracked area is much looser than the rest of the dam and being more heavily eroded away.



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I dont want to quote myself. BUT if its leaking all the way through the dam at the bottom.... you get my drift.. Contact your builder asap..


I believe in catch and release. I catch then release to the grease..

BG. CSBG. LMB. HSB. RES.

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How steep is the front sloop where the dirt is sliding down

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It is pretty steep. Maybe a 30 - 40 degree pitch in the steepest place on the DAM.
Now that is has sloughed off, it is becoming less steep, maybe 25 - 30 degrees.

I dont think that the dam is in jeopardy of failing. The flow out the tow of the dam is pretty small. More like seepage than flow.

I am thinking that there must be a crack in the pond basin that is collecting flow undergound for about a hundred yards until it re-emerges at the spring.


My thought at the moment is to drain the pond and give it a week or two to dry and then get into it with a trackhoe and sheepsfoot to put in a clay liner at least on the DAM and valley bottom part of the basin. And compact up the sides of the walls.

One concern that I have is erosion due to water pressure. If there is a weak spot where most of the flow is going. Is clay likely to be good enough to support itself in that area.

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Originally Posted By: jturbo

I will probably let it sit a few months while I get thru the spring rains. Maybe a miracle will happen and it will slow down with the leaking. Is there a leaking pond rain dance kind of thing I should consider?
It sounds like I need to line the DAM and the Basin with a foot or two of clay and probably some bentonite/pondseal/ess13 kind of stuff.


To compact/line the dam, would it be better to tear it out and redo the core? Or would it be good enough to dig back the face and then use the sheepsfoot compact the face in lifts as the dirt is put back?

Hey jturbo sorry about your leak. Back in January I helped a member in Tx solve his cattail problem with the following formula (slightly modified for dam leaks) you must follow it to the LETTER to have any hope at all!
#1 Stop shaving NOW!
#2 Place a complete change of clothes in a trash bag along with 7 vidalia onions, two navel oranges, an unopened pack of Marlboro Lights(soft-pack only) and a 2 Pints of Smirnoff. Seal the bag tight and stuff it under the seat of your truck.
#3 In the next day or two find an old used tractor tire and place it exactly 6 paces either North or East of your leak. Then every night after everyone is bed sneak out there and urinate in it. (IMPORTANT!!DO NOT SKIP A NIGHT)
#4 Continue this until Monday night 4/18/11 (full moon!) then retrieve the bag, put on the clothes, flush the cigs down the toilet and pour the Smirnoff over your head making sure it runs down into and through the beard you should have going by now. (#1)
#5 OK Here's where it gets good!!!! At 11:45 pm take a black Sharpie marker and draw big circles around both your eyes all the way from eyebrows to cheek bones! Now at exactly 12.01 set the tire on fire and wait till it gets a GOOD burn going. Then throw your hands in the air like you just don't care, raise your right leg up and start hopping around the fire COUNTERCLOCKWISE while shouting PLUGYA! PLUGYA! PLUGYA! as loud as you can. Make three complete revolutions in this manner then quickly drop your right leg lift the left one and start hopping around the burning tire clockwise for three revolutions shouting even Louder!! Now grab your pistol out of the glove box and a handful of ammo...return to the fire..take off all your clothes, sit by the fire and begin shooting into the air while screaming the mantra from above. After you have fired 10 shots, get the onions and oranges and throw them as hard as you can at where you suspect the leak is coming from and Shout SERENITY NOW!!! Each time you chunk one. When you've thrown them all (9) return to sit by the fire and empty ALL the rounds you have left directly into the burning tractor tire (so that the sparks rise into the night sky like thousands of lightening bugs)
#6 The next morning when you are released from the police station or the mental health facility, go out to the ashes, look at your dam situation and I promise you will realize that a leaking dam is the LEAST of your problems!!!!!
Glad I could help FFF
PS This dance works wonders to put all kinds of stressors in perspective( GLOBAL WARMING-CORPARATE BAILOUTS-IMMIGRATION REFORM-UNREST IN THE MIDDLE EAST ETC ETC )..not just cattails and leaks.


" EVERY DAY I'M AMAZED BY HOW MANY THINGS I DON'T KNOW AND HOW MUCH STUFF I DON'T UNDERSTAND"
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An Update.

I have drained the pond. It took a while, given the monsoon type weather here in KY ovet the past month or so.

In one small area, I have found a hole aouut 3-4 inches in diameter that shows signs of water movement surrounding the hole.
The remainder of the pond bottom appears smooth silt, so I think I have found the source of my leak.

The hole is in the very bottom of the valley about 75 feet up from the dam, a couple of vertical feet up from the deepest part of the basin.

Any suggestions about the best way to seal a hole like this?
ONe thought was to dig it out and pour in gravel or concrete and then work a layer or clay over that area.

I am wondering about how big an area to build clay over??

Maybe I should still line the entire pond. Not sure.

Thx for any advice.

JOhn

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I think I would stuff all of the clay I could get into the hole. Pack it well and then put some more packed clay on top of it.

No idea whether I would dig around it.


It's not about the fish. It's about the pond. Take care of the pond and the fish will be fine. PB subscriber since before it was in color.

Without a sense of urgency, Nothing ever gets done.

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Thought I would add an update to add in case it helps others along the way.


I have had several rounds of pond fixing over the past few years
to make this pond hold. It has been an expensive proposition to be sure, however I have learned a lot about pond building in my area of central Kentucky.


Essentially, I have a lot of clay, mixed with limestone rock layers. The challenge for valley dams around here comes from water coming down the valley sinking down until it hits a weak layer and then progressing horizontally down the valley.

Once a Pond is built, the water pressure keeps trying to push the water towards any weak spot, which reconnects the water to the weak layer(s) that run under the valley.

As such as the pond has filled over the years, it keeps springing leaks farther up the valley which then reconnect the pond to the underground drainage system.

WHen I have a leak, they are fairly easy to spot as the location where the spring daylights will increase in flow and the pond will drop faster. Once the pond drops, it is easy to see the little sinkhole where the water is flowing.

At that point, I dig out that area with an excavator, dig down as deep as I can, to hit the rotten layer and then pack in clay.

I have done 2 rounds of this and have chased the leaks up the valley several hundred feet. By doing this, I have gone from 3" to 1.5" to .85" of loss per day.

THis past summer, I tried a different tact, as the heavy equipment route is very costly.

I located a company in Australia - Polymer Innovations which sells Water $ave. THey make a polymer sealant type product that is spread on the water over a large or small area, sinks to the bottom and is drawn into any seeping areas, where it expands into the voids.

It is not a cheap product, (shipping from AU basically doubled the cost of the product). However, it seems to work very well. As I locate a sink hole, I simply pour this product in the area of the hole and the leak stops within a couple of days. Using this product I have taken my leak from .85" down to .25" per day, and can probably eliminate the issue totally as I locate more problem areas over time.

The pond is leaking slowly enough at this point that I the water level may not get down low enough for me to locate more weak areas.

I feel like I could have used this product to avoid all the additional Excavating and clay packing that I did over the course of several summers. May be worth a try vs moving heavy equipment back into place.

Anyway, Thanks for the help that you all provided a few years back.

John


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