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HSB Questions
#361512 12/31/13 11:33 AM
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We have around a 2 acre BOW that is currently stocked with a FHM,GSH,RES and a few albino CC. The fatheads and shiners were put in last spring. We added the 50RES and CC this fall.

The FHM are definitely doing very well. I don't see any evidence of GSH reproduction, but I am pretty sure they are doing fine and should spawn this year. I need to do some minnow trapping and see if I can catch some.

My question is this. I was thinking about adding some HSB this spring. Like 20. Would they eat all of my FHM? Is this a good plan? I am eventually going to add LMB/BG, but I am not in a big hurry. Thoughts?

Re: HSB Questions
Jakeroo #361527 12/31/13 01:13 PM
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I do plan on regular feeding. I think I read on hear that the HSB are not very prone to accept feed, but at least I can feed the CC. I was just hoping to maintain a good forage base and add bass and bluegill in 3-5 years.

I guess my goal with this thought was just to grow a few big boys without destroying my forage base. I am also concerned about the RES spawning without something to eat them. I have read that RES will not stunt very easily. Would the HSB and a dozen CC keep them in check until I stock the LMB?

Re: HSB Questions
Jakeroo #361540 12/31/13 03:01 PM
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Wow lots of questions! I'll take a stab at them.

1. HSB will eat your FHM however I don't think 20 of them will eat all of them especailly if you are pellet feeding.

HSB will eat your RES but RES don't spawn that much so I wouldn't worry about your RES taking over. Course once RES get so big your HSB may not be able to eat them. Even the bigger HSB have a hard time with larger RES and BG.

HSB will take to feeding no problem if you have feed trained HSB. I bought 25 a couple years ago and they been doing great. I bought 15 feed trained and 10 non feed trained and I think at this point they are all eating pellets. They will learn from the others and will take to food most of the time.

I think what you want to do would be fine, but lets see what someone else has to say maybe I am missing something.

RC

Last edited by RC51; 12/31/13 03:02 PM.

The only difference between a rut and a Grave is the depth. So get up get out of that rut and get moving!! Time to work!!
Re: HSB Questions
RC51 #361587 12/31/13 09:11 PM
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RC, regarding the non-feed trained HSB. Do you have any idea how they were spawned and how they were grown as fingerlings? How do you know they aren't pellet trained? (just curious, that's all)


www.hoosierpondpros.com


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3/4 to 1 1/4 ac pond LMB, SMB, PS, BG, RES, CC, YP, Bardello BG, (RBT & Blue Tilapia - seasonal).
Re: HSB Questions
esshup #361664 01/02/14 08:48 AM
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Originally Posted By: esshup
RC, regarding the non-feed trained HSB. Do you have any idea how they were spawned and how they were grown as fingerlings? How do you know they aren't pellet trained? (just curious, that's all)


Hey Esshup

I only know this by what Keo's fish farm told me. They have ponds and tanks that have both feed trained and non feed trained HSB. But I think the non ones have taking to eating pellets.

Like Bill Cody said once I have some teacher fish that I think the non HSB were watching and took hold of what they were doing. This spring if all goes well this winter my HSB should be pushing 18 inches now.

The other thing is I haven't caught an HSB on a live bait for over a year or so now. Not that they wouldn't take it but I haven't got any bites yet except on fish food.

RC


The only difference between a rut and a Grave is the depth. So get up get out of that rut and get moving!! Time to work!!
Re: HSB Questions
Jakeroo #362435 01/10/14 12:17 PM
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The more I think about this pond stocking the more I am leaning towards not even adding LMB. Could the pond sustain itself with the species I have already added and just HSB. I would do a put and take system. This brings up a couple of questions.

Would GSH and RES take the place of BG in the food chain?

Would RES or GSH get out of control over time? And if so, would adding more CC be a good alternative for population control?

Re: HSB Questions
Jakeroo #362443 01/10/14 12:37 PM
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I'd lean to stocking HSB if you leave LMB/BG out of the mix insead of the CC just because of the catchability of the larger CC vs. the HSB. To act as a predator, the CC need to be a minimum of 3#, and once they get larger they usually have been C&R at least once, which makes them much harder if not impossible to catch again (at least in my expreience).

The HSB and GSH occupy the same area in the pond. (more open water). The adult RES will get too large (body size) to be forage for the HSB, but they spawn a LOT less than BG, so the overpopulation problems with BG shouldn't be seen. I have yet to hear of a stunted RES pond. HSB can easily utilize GSH for forage due to their fusiform shape.

The great thing about stocking CC and HSB is that they both do well on pellets, and if you don't have cavities in the pond for CC to use as spawning areas, both species are a put n take propositon. No worries of having a predator stunted pond like you might have with LMB in the mix due to natural reproduction.


www.hoosierpondpros.com


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3/4 to 1 1/4 ac pond LMB, SMB, PS, BG, RES, CC, YP, Bardello BG, (RBT & Blue Tilapia - seasonal).
Re: HSB Questions
Jakeroo #362445 01/10/14 12:40 PM
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Originally Posted By: Jakeroo
The more I think about this pond stocking the more I am leaning towards not even adding LMB. Could the pond sustain itself with the species I have already added and just HSB. I would do a put and take system. This brings up a couple of questions.

Would GSH and RES take the place of BG in the food chain?

Would RES or GSH get out of control over time? And if so, would adding more CC be a good alternative for population control?


I believe reports of RES over-population are rare. Angling for them can be challenging -- you might have more fun with HBG.

Maybe an expert could weigh in on GSH-RES-HBG-HSB with pellet feeding? Over time what whose genes would predominate?

Last edited by Bocomo; 01/10/14 01:02 PM.
Re: HSB Questions
Jakeroo #362446 01/10/14 12:43 PM
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Would HBG and the RES breed resulting in GSF eventually?

Last edited by Jakeroo; 01/10/14 12:50 PM.
Re: HSB Questions
Bocomo #362449 01/10/14 12:59 PM
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HBG have a large mouth gape for their length compared to RES. They will eat a lot of smaller fish, almost like having 6"-8" LMB in the pond.

Here's what I saw on a clients property.

2 ponds. Approximately 1 ac each. Both stocked with FHM, GSH, RES and YP at the same stocking rate in the Spring. 2 years later a population survey was done.

Ponds were purposely stocked light, approximately 40%-50% of recommended stocking rate.

Pond #1 with FHM, GHS, RES and YP showed good populations of fish of all age classes.

Pond #2 showed a very small population of FHM and no GHS other than the orig. stockers. Only a handful of YOY and 1 year old RES were observed, and even less YP YOY (other than the origional stockers).

The difference?

Pond #2 had GSF in it, unknown to the pond owner at the time of stocking the other fish. No GSF were observed that were larger than 6" in length, but it seems that there were enough of them in the pond to eat any YOY that were hatched.

Both ponds had the same amount of cover for YOY fish to hide in.

The following year after the population survey was completed, SMB were stocked in the first pond, and pond #2 was drained and rotenoned to ensure removal of the GSF.

HBG have the mouth gape comparable to GSF, and while pellet feeding will help control their appetite for YOY fish, I feel that HBG in this instance would be another predator in the pond. They WILL spawn too, although not as much as GSF or BG.

I think adding HBG to this pond will all depend on how much "catch and remove" will be done on the HBG. They are readily available and could always be added later if the pond owner feels that they would like to catch more "sunfish" and RES are too difficult to catch.


www.hoosierpondpros.com


http://www.pondboss.com/subscribe.asp?c=4
3/4 to 1 1/4 ac pond LMB, SMB, PS, BG, RES, CC, YP, Bardello BG, (RBT & Blue Tilapia - seasonal).
Re: HSB Questions
esshup #362451 01/10/14 01:15 PM
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Good info on the GSF and HBG. As far as I know, nothing else has been added to our pond. The abundance of FHM babies is a good sign that we don't have a problem yet, but I will keep an eye out.

Re: HSB Questions
Jakeroo #362486 01/10/14 07:21 PM
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In the 0.34 acre pond I have been experimenting with for some time now, the only predators I have in it are HSB, albino CC and a handful of female only SMB and one lone LMB. I also have RES and RBS in it. I am looking at adding a couple dozen all female crappies to see how much they affect the forage fish population. If it isn't excessive, I will probably add 20 or so all female crappies each spring when they are easy to sex. I have been building the forage fish population in this pond for 5 years with several different species though, so the forage fish diversity is very high for such a small pond.

When the LMB hits 14", it'll be removed. When the CC hit 20" they will be removed. Only the SMB, HSB and crappies will be allowed to grow to maximum size.


Men and fish are alike. They both get into trouble when they open their mouths.
Re: HSB Questions
Jakeroo #362562 01/11/14 02:03 PM
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How many HSB do you have in the pond? What are your impressions so far of your experiment? Has your forage base expanded or retracted?

Re: HSB Questions
Jakeroo #363017 01/15/14 03:05 PM
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Got a quote from the hatchery today. They gave prices for 4-6" and 8-10" at $1.25 and $2.50. My question is what is the likely difference? Is this a spring vs. fall spawn, better genetics or age?

Re: HSB Questions
Jakeroo #363033 01/15/14 05:34 PM
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My guess is strictly age. They are spawned by man mixing eggs and milt, and I'd venture to guess that happens at least once a week. There is a high demand for them as food fish, and they can be grown in an aquaculture setting, so just like tilapia, they want to harvest them every week.


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3/4 to 1 1/4 ac pond LMB, SMB, PS, BG, RES, CC, YP, Bardello BG, (RBT & Blue Tilapia - seasonal).
Re: HSB Questions
Jakeroo #363325 01/18/14 07:54 AM
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"and RES are too difficult to catch."

Esshup, what in your opinion makes the RES so hard to catch? Any tips on upping the catch-ability? Different fishing techniques specifically for that fish?

Keep reading where they are mean and hard to catch. I'm kind of fascinated by them, but I hope I can actually catch some to see how they are doing.


John

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Re: HSB Questions
snrub #363333 01/18/14 08:57 AM
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RES aren't mean, what gave you that idea?

I'll just fish close to the bottom, either with a jig head and worm, or a beetle spin.


www.hoosierpondpros.com


http://www.pondboss.com/subscribe.asp?c=4
3/4 to 1 1/4 ac pond LMB, SMB, PS, BG, RES, CC, YP, Bardello BG, (RBT & Blue Tilapia - seasonal).
Re: HSB Questions
Jakeroo #363458 01/19/14 11:19 AM
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If in a pond without BG they become far easier to catch. They act a bit more like BG when not in competition with them it seems.


Men and fish are alike. They both get into trouble when they open their mouths.
Re: HSB Questions
Jakeroo #363464 01/19/14 02:52 PM
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I kind of wondered about that CJBS2003. If they were in a pond by themselves, they might be easier to catch.

If in a lot of ponds stocking of RES was maybe only 10-20% of the BG numbers, then the fact that BG out reporduce them, it only stands to reason that in sheer numbers there are not going to be as many or as easy to catch. Then add to that the fact that they don't hit the top of the water much, and that cuts the chance of catching one down even more. Throw a baited hook in the water and there is probably 95% chance of catching something else simply because there are not a high percentage of RES in there and something else gets to the bait first.

In my refurbished pond of about an acre I put 125 RES in. I had put ten adult 5" BG in a couple months earlier. Kind of wish I had not done that. They may or may not have got off a late summer spawn. Kind of wish I had just kept it a RES only pond just to see what happened. Had put in some FHM in the spring earlier, and that is all the fish that was put in.

There was a puddle left in the middle of the pond when I cleaned it out and it had some tiny minnows and I am going to guess a GSF or two. And maybe even - gasp- a bullhead. Wish I would have went ahead and killed everything off, but something sentimental made me want to leave those fish if they had the determination that bad to live. I know.............. bad decision. But what is done is done. I think this was about the time I discovered Pond Boss Forum also, so there was a lot I had not learned yet that I am aware of now (not saying I have "learned" anything yet, just been exposed to the process. LOL)

Anyway think I will just leave the pond as it till next summer, then maybe to a sein sample and see what is there. At some point will put in a few LMB just to keep the BG population down, but want to give the RES a good chance to populate the pond. So if there is not too much young, may wait till 2015 to put predators in. Who knows, might even try a few HSB or something else.

Guy that sold me the fish and brought them out suggested a put and take HBG/HSB pond, but somehow that just did not float my boat. So the RES pond will be my experimental pond. It is kind of muddy, so who knows maybe I will end up with some RES/BG hybrids anyway. We will see.

You think esshup likes that picture? I can't keep from laughing every time I see it.

Last edited by snrub; 01/19/14 03:02 PM.

John

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Re: HSB Questions
snrub #363467 01/19/14 03:12 PM
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Originally Posted By: snrub
I kind of wondered about that CJBS2003. If they were in a pond by themselves, they might be easier to catch.

Hey shrub, HSB will be easy to catch, regardless of other species in pond.
That's the reason I stock them, in addition to out fight a LMB any day of the week - my favorite pond fish... cool
George



N.E. Texas 2 acre and 1/4 acre ponds
Original george #173 (22 June 2002)




Re: HSB Questions
george1 #363471 01/19/14 03:48 PM
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Will keep that in mind when it is time to put predators in. Thanks.

That is what I need to stay interested in fishing. Catching is fun. I get bored pretty quickly with fishing.

HSB sounds like my kind of fish. wink


John

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Re: HSB Questions
Jakeroo #363476 01/19/14 06:12 PM
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Snrub - please keep us advised as the pond fishery progresses and how things work out.


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Re: HSB Questions
george1 #363483 01/19/14 07:09 PM
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Originally Posted By: george1
Originally Posted By: snrub
I kind of wondered about that CJBS2003. If they were in a pond by themselves, they might be easier to catch.

Hey shrub, HSB will be easy to catch, regardless of other species in pond.
That's the reason I stock them, in addition to out fight a LMB any day of the week - my favorite pond fish... cool
George


George, I wasn't referring to HSB. Look up above my post and you will see I was referring to RES. :-)


Men and fish are alike. They both get into trouble when they open their mouths.
Re: HSB Questions
CJBS2003 #363527 01/20/14 05:47 AM
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Originally Posted By: CJBS2003
Originally Posted By: george1
Originally Posted By: snrub
I kind of wondered about that CJBS2003. If they were in a pond by themselves, they might be easier to catch.

Hey shrub, HSB will be easy to catch, regardless of other species in pond.
That's the reason I stock them, in addition to out fight a LMB any day of the week - my favorite pond fish... cool
George


George, I wasn't referring to HSB. Look up above my post and you will see I was referring to RES. :-)

Oh Travis - OOPS - my bad!
My brain is dis-connected from my keyboard or something like that... cry
You are so right - as usual!
I don't even target RES - only catch one now and then when AQMX pellet fly sinks - as you know they are bottom feeders and will eat fish food.

George



N.E. Texas 2 acre and 1/4 acre ponds
Original george #173 (22 June 2002)





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