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In an open unpressurized tank to a well pump? When the float drops to a certain level in the tank the well pump kicks on to fill it again to a certain level. Remember the tank is open (actually a lined pit) and not pressurized. I'm sure this is done in irrigation and cattle tanks?
I will be dropping my 45 gpm flow to 2gpm or less to raise twice as many pounds of trout in an indoor recirculating system vs. the outdoor pond, but don't want to change out the well pump. Would like to expand the present 6 X 6 X 3 feet deep lined pit that the well dumps into to make it large enough that the 2 gpm only kicks on every 24 hours.
Not sure what start up amperage is but I think running amps of the well pump is 20 amps if I remember right.
Btw for my fellow hoosiers, according to a state political source I am privy too, Indiana legislators want to come up with a "water plan" in the not too distant future. Could be anything from new permits to water use fees. Fortunately the farm looby is strong here but I'll keep you posted.
Last edited by Cecil Baird1; 12/17/13 01:09 PM.
If pigs could fly bacon would be harder to come by and there would be a lot of damaged trees.
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I have two float switches and electric valves in my non-pressurized de-gassing tank for our home water, I can only assume they are readily available.
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If pigs could fly bacon would be harder to come by and there would be a lot of damaged trees.
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At farm stores you can get mechanical float valves for cattle tanks.
We have used them in 1500 gallon plastic storage tanks that we use as surge tanks to fill our ag sprayer out of. We removed the lid of the tank and installed one of these valves on the lid at the desired water level (full but not so full as to run out the lid). The water flows through the valve till the tank is full and the water is cut off. Once we fill out of the tank and the water drops the valve allows the tank to refill. Standard garden hose screws into the valve.
That way no one has to babysit the tanks while they are filling. We have used a couple different types of these valves and generally speaking the better ones that cost a little more are more dependable and last longer. Farm stores have them in stock around here.
Depending on your flow needs, a bathroom stool tank float valve might also work.
Edit: I misunderstood the question. I thought he already had a working water system and only needed to control the water level in an open tank. I see now he was wanting to switch a pump on and off.
Last edited by snrub; 12/19/13 08:07 AM. Reason: misunderstood question so gave poor answer
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Thank you gentleman. Just realized something: my present 4 inch buried PVC outlet is set up for surface overflow from the pit.That gave me an oh crap moment until I remembered even though the feed is at the surface, the actual pipe is a good 3 feet down, so when I replace the epdm liner (which has a small leak) I can rig up a surface AND bottom outlet.
If I only had a outlet at the surface a float valve would be a waste of time. LOL
Last edited by Cecil Baird1; 12/17/13 07:12 PM.
If pigs could fly bacon would be harder to come by and there would be a lot of damaged trees.
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Something to think about while your getting your pit straightened out.
How reliable will this have to function?
Would it be OK if the pump didn't kick in to fill the pit once it reached it's low level?
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Well it wouldn't be a catastrophe right away as the flow from the well will only be 2 gallons per minute or less and the system will be about 4400 gallons the first year and 8400 the second year.
This is for the benefit of others here as you probably know this Phil: It's a recirc but uses a low continuous flow from the well to keep temps down and as make up water. Unfortunately that's one of the downsides to coldwater fish in a recirc as in keeping temps down and the water as clean of suspended solids as possible. Salmonids don't tolerate nitrates as well as other species either. Therefore more water exchange is needed than other species.
If pigs could fly bacon would be harder to come by and there would be a lot of damaged trees.
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What about a float switch from a pedestal style sump pump?I actually have one that isn't that old.The pump ingested something and we replaced the whole unit.You are welcome to it for the cost of shipping.The unit I have is quite similar to this one here http://www.contractorsdirect.com/General...t-Pump-VS-P2800 I think it would be fairly easy to mount the guide rod to the edge of the tank along with the switch.
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Btw for my fellow hoosiers, according to a state political source I am privy too, Indiana legislators want to come up with a "water plan" in the not too distant future. Could be anything from new permits to water use fees. Fortunately the farm looby is strong here but I'll keep you posted. I've been watching this myself. http://www.indianaeconomicdigest.net/main.asp?SectionID=31&SubSectionID=120&ArticleID=72176And here: http://chestertontribune.com/Environment/indiana_lawmakers_and_advocates.htm
Last edited by sprkplug; 12/17/13 07:54 PM. Reason: added link
"Forget pounds and ounces, I'm figuring displacement!"
If we accept that: MBG(+)FGSF(=)HBG(F1) And we surmise that: BG(>)HBG(F1) while GSF(<)HBG(F1) Would it hold true that: HBG(F1)(+)AM500(x)q.d.(=)1.5lbGRWT? PB answer: It depends.
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Thanks Tony! Well meaning people but I hope they base their decisions on good science and not a knee jerk reaction. The way the articles read to me the water supply is the same throughout the state. Couldn't be more wrong.
Tony did you know that the South Bend area was once a prehistoric canyon that has been filled with glacial till and has lots and lots of ground water - the most in the state? Then in parts of southern Indiana we have folks sucking water out of cracks in rock at 10 to fifteen gallons a minute if they are lucky.
On the other hand I've seen local farmers pump irrigation water while it's raining. Granted they probably need to get their soil moisture levels up and can't wait on the rain, but it's bad PR to the general public. Even a friend who is pretty much a liberatarian is up in arms about it. I jokingly asked him if he is only libretarian when it suits him. LOL
Last edited by Cecil Baird1; 12/17/13 08:22 PM.
If pigs could fly bacon would be harder to come by and there would be a lot of damaged trees.
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These are curious times for sure, Cecil. And somewhat frightening. Prehistoric canyon filled with glacial till huh? I guess there wasn't enough material left over to level out our hills and hollers down this way!
"Forget pounds and ounces, I'm figuring displacement!"
If we accept that: MBG(+)FGSF(=)HBG(F1) And we surmise that: BG(>)HBG(F1) while GSF(<)HBG(F1) Would it hold true that: HBG(F1)(+)AM500(x)q.d.(=)1.5lbGRWT? PB answer: It depends.
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Did the glaciers even go that far south?
If pigs could fly bacon would be harder to come by and there would be a lot of damaged trees.
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Almost. Stopped just north of here a little ways.
"Forget pounds and ounces, I'm figuring displacement!"
If we accept that: MBG(+)FGSF(=)HBG(F1) And we surmise that: BG(>)HBG(F1) while GSF(<)HBG(F1) Would it hold true that: HBG(F1)(+)AM500(x)q.d.(=)1.5lbGRWT? PB answer: It depends.
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What about a float switch from a pedestal style sump pump?I actually have one that isn't that old.The pump ingested something and we replaced the whole unit.You are welcome to it for the cost of shipping.The unit I have is quite similar to this one here http://www.contractorsdirect.com/General...t-Pump-VS-P2800 I think it would be fairly easy to mount the guide rod to the edge of the tank along with the switch. Really appreciate the offer but I will pass as I need more information and don't want to hook anything up that might damage my well pump. Thank you very much for the offer!
If pigs could fly bacon would be harder to come by and there would be a lot of damaged trees.
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Not a problem,just figured I'd make the offer.Chances are JKB or one of the other electrical gurus will have a solution for what you are looking for.If not,next time you are at Lowes or Home Depot etc take a look at how the float system works on this style sump.I think it would be pretty easy to use this style float setup to run a switch that suits your pump.
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I suggested to Cecil, in a PM, that he get's some local "Professional" input.
20 bucks won't cover it! Think a few grand, at minimum, for this to be proper.
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I suggested to Cecil, in a PM, that he get's some local "Professional" input.
20 bucks won't cover it! Think a few grand, at minimum, for this to be proper. For a float that tells an electric pump it's down so far and to kick on, and then off again with it comes back up? Seriously? Never said anything about a 20 dollar switch. Not sure where that came from.
Last edited by Cecil Baird1; 12/19/13 08:44 AM.
If pigs could fly bacon would be harder to come by and there would be a lot of damaged trees.
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I suggested to Cecil, in a PM, that he get's some local "Professional" input.
20 bucks won't cover it! Think a few grand, at minimum, for this to be proper. For a float that tells an electric pump it's down so far and to kick on, and then off again with it comes back up? Seriously? You have my PM reply. Good Luck!
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Cecil, the $ is in direct correlation to the well pump motor size. A $20 switch rated for a 1/3 hp 120v motor isn't the same as one rated for a 5 hp 220v motor. It may be less $$ than what JKB is talking about, but I'd rather prepare the client for the worst case (money wise) and come in under budget than way over budget. There's probably cheap ways to do it, but there's no guarantee that the pump motor won't fry. Just like a clients waterfall/stream pump. The old one stopped working and he wanted a bigger pump for more flow. Sure, I said, but you're going to have to upgrade the wiring going to the pond. O.K. he said, I'll have an electrician out here (his brother). I told him that I thought he should go with at least 10 ga, but 8 ga would be better, but to have the electrician do the calculations to be sure. $1,100 for a 13,600 gph pump. It lasted just shy of 2 years. He's feeding it with a little over 100' of 14 ga wire. (120v) (He didn't tell the electrician that there would be 2 hp on that circuit.) This year he added a Kasco surface agitator to the same outlet, and the waterfall pump failed. Previously, the outlet wasn't working, but somehow there was still power getting out there. The electrician that was called out said that he had to turn the breaker off, then uncover the whole wire run and let it cool because the dirt was too hot to move with his bare hands. All the electrician did was fix the "no electric" problem, but didn't upgrade the wires because he wasn't told the load that would be on them.
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Just another thought.
I misread the original question and assumed he already had a working pressure system and just wanted to supply water to an open tank. That would be no different than a bathroom stool, which is an open tank with a float valve. Now I see where he wants to switch a pump on and off to control the fill.
Another avenue might be to just go ahead and install a pressure tank with associated pump switch so you have a real water system. Then Cecil would have water supply at any tap point he wanted.
Then a simple float valve would control the water to his open tank, but he could add any number of valves/circuits in the future very simply. Good for future projects.
If he is trying to turn on and off a 2 horsepower pump to only supply a few gpm, that is akin to filling up your tea glass with a fire hose. Cycling that big of pump each time a small amount of water is not going to be economical electric wise or good for the life of the pump motor, IMO.
Am I off base here?
Last edited by snrub; 12/19/13 08:18 AM.
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I suggested to Cecil, in a PM, that he get's some local "Professional" input.
20 bucks won't cover it! Think a few grand, at minimum, for this to be proper. For a float that tells an electric pump it's down so far and to kick on, and then off again with it comes back up? Seriously? You have my PM reply. Good Luck! Phil, You're reading something in my posts that is not there. I never ever questioned your knowledge about these types of things and wish I had half have the knowledge you have with electronics etc. Sure I kid you a little bit about your love of gadgets/instruments etc. and the fact that you haven't got your system up and running yet, but it's just a that -- nothing more. I just made the statement that 2 grand seems a little excessive for something like this. But then I could very well be wrong as I don't know squat in your area of expertise. I would miss your input here if you stayed angry at me. You're a really smart guy and you probably roll your eyes at my posts but that's why I ask. I'm not the smartest guy but I usually figure things out eventually by asking, researching, and getting as much information I can. And I'm not afraid to hire someone if it's over my head. And believe it or not I'm not one that goes on the cheap and dangerous. But if I can DIY I will.
Last edited by Cecil Baird1; 12/19/13 09:24 AM.
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Just another thought.
I misread the original question and assumed he already had a working pressure system and just wanted to supply water to an open tank. That would be no different than a bathroom stool, which is an open tank with a float valve. Now I see where he wants to switch a pump on and off to control the fill.
Another avenue might be to just go ahead and install a pressure tank with associated pump switch so you have a real water system. Then Cecil would have water supply at any tap point he wanted.
Then a simple float valve would control the water to his open tank, but he could add any number of valves/circuits in the future very simply. Good for future projects.
If he is trying to turn on and off a 2 horsepower pump to only supply a few gpm, that is akin to filling up your tea glass with a fire hose. Cycling that big of pump each time a small amount of water is not going to be economical electric wise or good for the life of the pump motor, IMO.
Am I off base here? No idea as I don't know squat in this area. LOL Hence why I was asking JKB and others if they had ever heard of the set up I was interested in. Thanks for your response. I was hoping I'd get lucky and someone was already doing this with a irrigation system or something, and it would just be a matter of relaying the info to an electrician. I'd rather steer away from a pressure tank as it would have to be very large or several in a series to not have the pump kick on so often. Even with my home well it's bad enough with two large pressure tanks as the pump seems to be kicking on all the time. My thoughts were to make the reservoir large enough (in this case a lined pit which I have now but smaller) so that the pump only kicks on every 24 hours to fill up the pit when it goes down far enough. Flow would still be 45 gpm from the well pump but it would only have to kick on once a day. There would be a gravity flow off the pit at 2 gpm 24/7. The pit will be about 5 feet above in elevation of the water exit into the pole building, which will be farther down the property. The discharge from the pit will be low enough that there will be discharge as long as there is water in the pit. Discharge can be regulated with a gate valve at the exit point. Or perhaps another type of valve as I'm finding gate valves aka knive valves eventually leak. Perhaps two valves as a back up in case one fails.
Last edited by Cecil Baird1; 12/19/13 09:23 AM.
If pigs could fly bacon would be harder to come by and there would be a lot of damaged trees.
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Cecil, maybe talk to the plastic tank company. Run the calculations and get a tank that has enough capacity to hold 24 hr worth of water. Put the level switch in there, and it only kicks on once per day when the water gets low enough. IIRC if you have an open pit, and only exchange the water once a day, it might bring in unwanted bugs/frogs or be an area where mosquito's lay their eggs.
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In my opinion, (which should be understood is not based on any great amount of electrical experience), there should be a way to accomplish this for reasonable money. If it were mine, and I was doing it for myself, I think I could come up with a system that would work reliably, and safely. There's certainly nothing wrong with using top of the line components, engineered for exactly this type of application. But I really believe that other options exist that would perform the same function for less $$$$
I simply don't believe that there are always, only two ways of doing things...the right way, and the cheap way. There is often a middle ground to be found with a little digging.
Safety first, always. You're dealing with electricity and water. But many items have dual functionality, or will perform well in applications never envisioned by their designer. Thinking outside the box has produced excellent results for me in the past...with a few failures to be sure.
Research and experiment. I would begin by verifying your pump specs.
"Forget pounds and ounces, I'm figuring displacement!"
If we accept that: MBG(+)FGSF(=)HBG(F1) And we surmise that: BG(>)HBG(F1) while GSF(<)HBG(F1) Would it hold true that: HBG(F1)(+)AM500(x)q.d.(=)1.5lbGRWT? PB answer: It depends.
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