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#357354 11/17/13 09:18 AM
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So, I've been lurking around PB for a few months. What a great site! laugh Thanks to all of you for the tips and great information.

But, now the shovel is about to split the dirt and I have a few questions. I've read a number of threads and as much as I could find in the archives on cover and structure. I've read Bob's book on pond management three times. So, I have the basic idea but it's all academic so far. Here's a little background...

The 0.5 acre cattle tank (photo below) was built by my grandfather in Northeast Texas around the 1940's and, with Otto's help, I plan to enlarge it to about 2 to 2.5 acres. I plan to stock FHM, GS, CNBG, BG, CC and LMB so my wife and I can enjoy fishing in retirement when we're not cruising the country on our Gold Wing. cool

I'm attaching a "concept" drawing of the pond as we haven't shot grade yet. Obviously, mother nature and a crafty dozer will dictate the actual shape. But, we walked it several times and I don't think I'm too far off the topography.

To the point... I'd like to use all natural cover in the pond. In the drawing, I have placed the cover trying to create a "fish highway" as someone described in a previous post. But, again, I am a complete novice and this is all an academic exercise at this point. If anyone has suggestions, I would appreciate your thoughts on the concept drawing and the best types of natural cover. Is this too much or too little cover (I remember a 20% rule-of-thumb from one of the threads)? Does the layout create a suitable "fish highway"? Anything you'd add to the habitat? Any comments or insights would be greatly appreciated.

PS: This is my first attempt to add images so, hopefully, they are attached. If not, I'll keep trying. blush

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Sweet layout
looks perfectly planned out to me
well done!!

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The only thing that I'd like to add is that with natural cover, and especially with the cover that is placed to target YOY and fingerling fish, is that it will decompose rather quickly, and you will have to be replacing it or adding to it every couple of years. Because of that, depending on the soil in and around the pond, the extra nutrients that you will be adding to the pond could be a blessing or a curse.


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3/4 to 1 1/4 ac pond LMB, SMB, PS, BG, RES, CC, YP, Bardello BG, (RBT & Blue Tilapia - seasonal).
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Nice plan.

Wish I would have thought mine out more ahead of time. The BOW itself was well planned but the cover structure, dock, etc. were all by the seat of my pants as things progressed. Digging post holes for the dock would have been much easier on dry land than in the water.

Oh, well. It all got done.

Wish you the best on your endeavor and hope you and your wife enjoy the pond as much as I and my wife do.


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Thanks Peepaw, that's a great compliment coming from a habitat expert. Snrub, what I put on paper and how it unfolds are sure to be two different things. I know this, though, I can throw away my post-hole digger. The soil is solid red iron clay - at least, it is down to 10 ft where we stopped the excavator. So, I may have to use a pile driver instead. In fact, a floating dock suddenly seems like an attractive option.

Esshup, hope you (and Peepaw?) are hunkered down in your basements by now... nasty weather for sure! eek

When you get back on line, thanks for the advice! My nephew (tournament angler) said exactly the same thing about the natural cover. If it makes a difference, I'm planning to put the brush in shallow water just off the banks so it's relatively easy to replace. I intend to plant the (live) sand flat with aquatic plants (maybe lilies?) for fingerlings and to help oxygenate the water. I could build up the submerged islands to within 3 ft of the water surface for additional plants as well. What do you think?

Also to your point, the tree trunks over the trench(s) will be hard to replace. If I use cedar or hardwoods, they will last longer. But, I can't find any good alternatives for this feature. If you happen to think of something, I'm all ears!


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Ok here is what I see. First the key on structure is to think in 3-D. Think water depth/bottom couture then added structure. Make it for all seasons accounting for water stratification / temp and time of year. Then species and spawning to adult tendencies.

On your specifics given your location natural decomposition should not be a problem as much of East TX needs lime and nutrients (fertilizer). But do get your water/dirt tested.

Things to consider WRT your drawing :

on the islands add some gravel on the very top if it is less than 10 ft deep. add isolated brush/wood/pallet structures to give extra relief and a concentration area (about 3) per island just off the top. For example if the top is 6 ft deep at a location just off the top in 7 ft add stand up pallets or brush piles that cover about 3 X 3 and that stand 3-4 feet high.

On the long descending point (top of drawing) bring a 4 ft wide strip of gravel all the way out to 7 feet deep. At the end of that gravel and between there and the dep log structure add a mid level brush/wood structure to complete the 3-D highway.

On the part of the dam to the right of the dock add rock or pallet or brush piles about every 30 feet down the dam and alternate them in depth from 1 foot to 7 feet. The incline of the dam is the biggest bottom contour change you have and is a excellent place to attract fish from deep to shallow water over a short distance.

Add a brush pile in 7 ft of water between the 3 dirt piles and the 10 ft contour line bottom left of your plat. It will connect the highway from there to the 12 ft log pile.

Same concept , add a brush pile in 8 feet of water between the dam brush pile and the deep log structure (cover from bottom to 3 feet deep - a 5 foot high pile.

On the dam at far right end in the bend in 6 ft of water add a brush pile to hold fish from the inlet area to the right.



Last edited by ewest; 11/19/13 09:30 AM.















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Ewest... many thanks!! Great advice! I will definitely do the soil and water tests. I was planning to do a water test before and after renovation. I expect high iron and low pH.

I'm incorporating your suggestions in the drawing and will post an update when I'm done.


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I will be looking.
















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ewest, here's my update...

I've tried to connect the highways' placing structure and cover as you suggested. I've substituted rock piles for brush, wood, and pallets where possible because the former will last longer. For the submerged islands, I've put gravel on top. The soil is mostly red clay so I believe I can shape the islands using a track loader with flats to support three separate rock piles. An illustration of the island is attached along with the updated concept drawing of the pond.

Do you know if FHM will use the undersides of lilies for spawning or do they need something more substantial (as in pallets)?

Any more thoughts? smile

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PondConcept.jpg IslandConcept.jpg

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Those look great. Step back now and think in 3-D. I would switch the dam rock piles and brush piles to cover more vertical space in the water column (3-D). Brush in deeper water and rock piles near bank. Those islands look great.
















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The vertical part is hard for me to visualize. I guess that comes with experience.

So, here's the latest. It's off to Mike now. It will be interesting to compare the real cover on structure versus the concept when we're through. If I'm not traveling, I'll try to take some pictures as we go. wink

Thanks again, ewest!

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Just try to think like you are a fish ( like in a submarine).
















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Your plans are looking top notch!!

Eric has many great points about habitat here. Note the comparison of short and tall objects and the "basement" effect.

why fish cribs work or fail

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Thanks Peepaw - lots of good info there. Yes the vertical component (in water depth) is often the most overlooked aspect of structure. It is best to cove all depths and locations correctly.
















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As far as hardwoods over the trench, if you can get some Osage Orange corner posts (we locally call them "hedge posts") they will last 30-40 years as a corner post so submerged I would imagine they would last for as long as the pond had life.

Don't know if they are available in your area. Many years ago lots were cut from the "hedge rows" that were originally used as fence lines from this area and shipped south for both line posts as well as the larger ones for corner posts. They are still used locally for corner posts but most everyone uses steel posts for line posts. I cut from our own hedge rows the ones used in my dock for dock pilings. Also used some old line posts we had taken out of a fence that were already 30+ years old (and still good) to crib up and add boards for FHM spawning and cover for small BG.

In our new pond we have a deep area near the dam then another deep area closer to the opposite side where we excavated with a scraper to get the rest of the dirt for the dam. So the center of our pond is actually shallower than either side. Then in this shallow center area we took the scraper and cut trenches laterally across the pond in about four places. We bridged all the way across in some places and slanted to the bottom in other places structure. Used a variety of things, one being a large Osage Orange stump we removed from near the site turned on its side and weighted down with concrete foundation pieces. The root ball was so large actually had to cut some of it off so it would not be above water (in about a 9' depth area). Another thing we made a lot of use of was concrete foundation pieces we got from our defunct turkey growing operation. The concrete foundations were about a foot thick by two feet wide by anything from six foot to 12 foot in length (whatever broke off when the dozer pushed it out). These concrete chunks ought to last long enough. We also "cribbed" a bunch of them with wild cedar trees standing upright within. Recently I have learned the cedar will go away in a few years so wish I would have added some plastic or other finer material along with the cedars. Oh well, I'm a scuba diver so will be able to inspect and maybe add as needed. Also used some salvaged concrete "slabs" from the same source and made overhang ledges in a few places along drop offs to replicate a "bluff". Maybe someone nearby tearing out some foundations that they might have to pay to dispose of you could get for free?

Just some ideas for you. If you have access to Osage Orange trees or concrete foundation pieces or slabs, they both last a long time.

Last edited by snrub; 11/25/13 01:01 AM.

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Take some underwater pics/video when you dive and post them here - a great addition.

Osage Orange is a great wood for specialty items so I would not waste it in the pond - other hard wood will work. Its the exposure to air that mainly breaks down wood - keep it submerged an it will last a long time.

Last edited by ewest; 11/25/13 06:43 AM.















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Great wood for specialty items??? LOL. We burn it for heat here. Tremendous btu's in a dense wood. I cant fathom how much of it had been dozed up out of old fence rows and burned in brush piles since the time I was a small kid (a long time ago). Many farms had multiple hedge rows transversing the property to form natural fences for cattle or to separate them from cropping areas. From the time I was a small child through today these rows that were originally planted by pioneers during homesteading time have been removed to create bigger tracts of land to farm, build houses on, etc. What at pioneer times were rapid growing sticker laden bushes are now a foot or more in diameter as natural selection pushed out the smaller trees and only the big ones were left.

In my younger years the "hedges" were cut regularly for line posts then in a few years they grew up again to new posts. Since few use wood posts for fences any more because of the labor costs for both cutting the posts and installing them where steel posts are both cheaper and easier to install, these hedge rows have grown up into huge trees. They sap out sometimes approaching a hundred feet into a field and show up on a yield monitor when harvesting crops depleting the yield to a great degree. So Osage Orange is mostly a scourge to farmers while making a great heating wood for wood stove burners.

It is a beautiful orange wood. I've often thought of getting some made into lumber but sawmills around here generally frown on touching it. They are not fond of the old steeples and nails and wire from barb wire being attached and buried deep into the growing tree over the years. I think it would make beautiful flooring and last forever. Been cutting up some limbs of it just yesterday to keep warm (cutting wood warms you twice, once while cutting it and the second time while burning).

I guess like so many things, beauty is in the eyes of the beholder.


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Osage makes a really good longbow.



"Forget pounds and ounces, I'm figuring displacement!"

If we accept that: MBG(+)FGSF(=)HBG(F1)
And we surmise that: BG(>)HBG(F1) while GSF(<)HBG(F1)
Would it hold true that: HBG(F1)(+)AM500(x)q.d.(=)1.5lbGRWT?
PB answer: It depends.
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Knife handles , wood carvings , lamp bases , small stands , inlay material and more.
















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Thanks for the links, Peepaw!

Wow, Eric... those are some great photos and a great article. I can't find any good books on habitat for freshwater ponds. So, I trust you're working on a book deal! I'll take a dozen for gifts...

In any case, I'm starting to see the vertical component a lot better after browsing all of these great materials so thanks for expanding my pond world. I don't know if I can make the basement thing work with submerged islands. But, suffice to say, I'm giving the submerged islands a lot more (vertical) thought. Maybe I should consider replacing them with cribs...?

Snrub, although Osage Orange grows in our area, I can't recall seeing very much of it around. We used Cedar trees for fencing when I was growing up. Cedar makes nice furniture, too. But, as you say about Osage Orange, we always considered Cedar to be a nuisance tree around the farm. It's not good for shade, doesn't produce an edible fruit and it thrives best along fence rows and in the most inconvenient places. Incidentally, I recently read that Christmas trees are the number one cash crop in Texas these days - go figure!

I'm sure we'll push up some Cedar stumps when we extend the dam. We have a small area we plan to clear behind the dam. In the lower depths, without as much oxygen, I'm thinking Cedar logs would probably last as long as I'll be around. Another option is to use concrete culverts but they tend to be a bit expensive ($100's depending on diameter and length).

I found a limestone quarry (rip rap and gravel) within delivery distance. The material cost is about $125 per bob tail load. I'm not sure how much for delivery yet. The trucking company is independent of the quarry. I read that limestone rock piles can help stabilize the water pH and alkalinity over time. I probably won't need much flat (sand) stone so I could probably pick up some planks at any landscape yard. They'd make great shelves as you say. I could easily integrate these into the submerged islands. And, I found an add recently for busted up concrete within 20 miles of the farm - taken from an old parking lot. I'm a little leery of this one because of the potential for motor oil, antifreeze and other residuals in the concrete plus the rebar. But, suffice to say, I'm finding some workable options. All great suggestions and much appreciated!


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Very nice bow sprkplug.

My brother does that. Flint knaps too. Belongs to an indian tribe and actually teaches bow making to younger tribe members. He gets his Osage Orange when he comes back to visit.

Lives in Portland now.

My work with Osage Orange is a little more crude. See picture.

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032.JPG 036.JPG
Last edited by snrub; 11/26/13 12:17 AM. Reason: added pic

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I intend to take some underwater photos but so far the visibility sucks. About 18" this summer. My wife is really the under water photographer. Camera is too distracting for me. She is into macro and it would be really neat to get her to take some macro shots of BG, etc but the chance of getting her diving in pond water is slim to none and slim just left town. She used to dive lakes with me, but I ruined her by going to the ocean. Now she expects 100' visibility.

I hope to do some photos next summer.

Here is one of her macro photos of a frogfish. I found this little guy when he was only the size of a quarter. Not a great one of a seahorse (she has lots better but not here on my computer). She will loan me her camera, but will not get in the pond. Hang her feet over the dock on a hot summer day, yes. Scuba dive, no.

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I've made knife handles out of freshly cut Oasge Orange/bois d'arc/bodark and it is a PITA to work with. Aged stuff is even worse. A carborundom wheel on a grinder only scorches it. I have had to use a rasp and then sand it.

I have found that years later it sometimes splits.

But it is really beautiful wood.

Last edited by Dave Davidson1; 11/27/13 05:52 AM.

It's not about the fish. It's about the pond. Take care of the pond and the fish will be fine. PB subscriber since before it was in color.

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The splitting is one thing I wondered about if using it for something like flooring. Might have to use some clear filler type sealant or something. I imagine oiling the wood might help with the splitting but do not know for sure.

Yes it is hard. I have a pile of old line posts (30 years old maybe??) we took out when the cattle left the farm and once in a while if I need some quick heating wood will cut some up. You can actually see sparks coming off the chain saw chain and if it is an old chain about worn out where the cutters are not very deep it will break one off once in a while. Dried out the stuff is half as hard as steel seems like.


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One tree one chain to sharpen ?

Nice pics.

Last edited by ewest; 11/27/13 09:35 PM.















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