Pond Boss Forums GENERAL QUESTIONS Pond Boss Hunting/Trapping 2013-2014

Nice suggestion!

Sounds like a good haul.

I shot two anterless so far. Didn't see any bucks but also didn't really hunt hard. I am more interested in meat than the rack. We have two more antlerless periods coming up this month - 18th - 20th and 28th - 31st - so I hope to get at least two more.

Hunted with my AR15 this year for the first time as I got the optics and laser zeroed in a couple of months ago. More than anything it was just fun hunting with my 8 year old as he loves that rifle. I am impressed with it - 2 standing and unbraced shots, 2 kills. The sucker is dialed in! I was thoroughly impressed with how well it shot. One was a head shot with the laser at about 120 yards and the second was a neck shot through the scope in a bunch of brush. Both dropped on the spot.

Nice wish we could hunt with exotic guns here but no chance. Those head and neck shots will drop them like a rock.

We only have two weeks a year we can hunt with shot gun and the others are bow hunts. Shot gun is first week of November and the first week of December.

Cheers Don.

Move to Michigan! You can red neck it across the boarder

Number 6 hanging in the barn. Taken from a herd of seven (but three were young ones). Hopefully I will get the doe numbers down and force the bucks to compete. Only one left within the county limit.

Nice! I'm doing the same thing at our place. The few neighbors we have in our general area out there all try to take at least a couple of does each year as we work to keep numbers down. I won't shoot a mother that still has young with her but once she's on her own or at least once her babies are grown, it's on! We don't see a lot of bucks thanks to a few bordering property owners who don't care that the rest of us are trying to improve the quality of deer. They have a big group that comes up from Florida for the first week and they shoot everything that moves. Kind of sucks, but that's the reality.

It certainly is fun! I've always hunted with a traditional hunting rifle but thought we'd take this one out this year. With a little luck, I'll get my son on one during one of these extra hunting periods and let him try it out. He's not a bad shot and may be able to do the trick.

Your firearm season isn't radically different than ours. Buck gun season is only two weeks but we do have the antlerless periods and a couple of muzzle loader periods, too, so we have ample opportunity.

We have neighbors that do the same thing - If its brown its down. The results will be a much smaller herd since a lot more does need to go if folks take a lot of immature bucks, which are the easiest deer to shoot. I'll keep taking lots of does till the ratio is right (about 1 buck to two does). These guys don't own the land so I guess they are not really interested in long term management. I support new or young hunters taking small bucks because they are trophies to them and a way to learn, but these guys have been doing this for years. Some like to say that they are meat hunters, but does taste as good as any buck, so maybe they are just poor hunters? Its not my land and its not illegal, so they have the right to do it.

I feel you. It's frustrating not owning a huge tract of land where you can actually manage your own herd in a sense, so we make the best of it we can. I am truly a meat hunter and have shot one rack buck ever, that being my 8 point last year. He was a nice sized deer body-wise but his rack, while very nicely shaped and very symmetrical, could have stood another year or two and he'd have been a gorgeous mount with decent mass. As it was, though, I knew there was little chance of him surviving another season and figured I might as well be the guy to shoot him. We had him mounted and he now hangs in my son's room.

I do not like to hunt too hard and the high number of does makes it easy to know we're going to get at least a few deer in the freezer each season with just a bit of effort.

My neighbor killed another while hunting on me today. I saw it on the trailer as they drove past, but I was fishing off the swim platform at the time and didn't want to get off and take a closer look. I think that makes four that have been removed thus far.

I made a mistake at the end of bow season and took a smaller buck than I would have liked to take, but it was not many years back when I would have been thrilled to have taken him. I have had some good luck in recent years, so I am more picky now. The problem is eight guys shooting anything that moves on five acres of land, vs me hunting alone on 100 acres of my own land. I do let a good friend hunt when he is not going to his own land, but he is willing to let the immature bucks walk. In addition to these eight guys, two other neighbors let a number of guys hunt on small tracts that don't support many deer year round. I am restoring habitat on 100 of my 114 acres for lots of different wildlife, but I only hunt deer. A retired neighbor traps our land also to keep populations of fur bearers in check. We do need to cull some coyotes also, so I may try and let some friends give it a go. My kids have no interest in hunting though, but I had no interest until I was 30 years old, so maybe it will kick in later for them.

Here's the elk hunt story - it's a long one. Hard to make a 4 day hunt short! I am just getting the pictures organized, so they'll be up tomorrow evening. Play time is over, work starts again tomorrow.

It is a bit technical because I also posted it on a reloading forum that I belong to where half of the guys on the trip frequent. The people on the trip were me, Dave, JJ, Colorado Mark, Florida Mark, Randy and Harry (also from Florida). Randy, both Marks and I were on the trip last year and Randy was the only one to get a cow. Harry blew his knee out less than 12 hrs before the plane was to take off and a doctor friend drained it and told him to be VERY careful. He tore his ACL and is going in for surgery tomorrow.

Short story - I got my cow. It was a small cow, but it will be tender!

Long story? Here goes. I’ll upload the pictures to Photobucket later and get them added in here tomorrow.

We (my buddy Dave from Tinley Park, Ill and JJ from Southern Illinois. JJ is a retired State Police Sniper Instructor) had pulled into Montrose at 8:00 a.m. on Monday, so after a bit of breakfast and a tour of the town for the guys, I took Dave and JJ to the landfill to sight in our guns and to check how they fared during the trip out. It was also a chance for me to shoot the big gun at altitude with the Berger 180g VLD bullets after having problems with the 175g Sierra MatchKing bullets coming apart in the air due to the speed and rpm. At my elevation (750 feet) the Bergers were leaving the muzzle at 3350 fps., about 145 fps slower than the SMK's. At the landfill, it was 6330 foot elevation, the temp was 39°F with a swirling 5-7 mph wind. JJ estimated with the elevation change, the bullets had a MV of 3400 fps. Dave was first up with his .300 Win Mag with handloads of 168g Berger VLD's pushed by H-1000 for a MV of 2950 fps at 750' elevation. His rifle is a Sig Sauer 202 Takedown, and his scope is a Swarovski 6-24x50. His rifle was zero'd here at 300 yds, and we had to do some adjustments for the altitude, but he was hitting at 300 to 500 - 600 yds. JJ was shooting a 30-06 with some Carcino bullets that he had worked up for Wildebeest in Africa. That rifle was spot on at 100-600 yds.

My gun? It took a bit of dialing in because of the different elevation, but we worked up and verified a drop table from 300 to 1335 yds. I couldn't find anything to shoot at safely any further away, durn it! I really had wanted to stretch it's legs to a mile, but it wasn't to be. So, I'm ready to go. Riiggghhhhtttttt.................

First day we hiked in to where the Elk were supposed to be crossing a corner of a ranch. I could only see 130 yds in one direction and 250 in the other. The Elk decided they wanted to take another route, so both Florida Mark and I came up empty. The wind was blowing and gusting up to 50 mph ahead of the approaching storm, so long shots were impossible. Later on that evening, on a different property, about 2,000 ft higher in elevation, the guide saw 2 cows laying under a ponderosa pine, maybe 400 yds past where Mark, Dave and JJ shot theirs that morning. Florida Mark lined up on the cow and I lined up on the head of the other one (all I could see was from in front of the ears forward because of a bunch of aspen tree trunks, but since the rifle will shoot groups of ¾” or less at the distance the guide said the elk were, I wasn’t concerned). Mark connected, I did too, and she flopped her head down at the shot. Mine tried to pick up it's head at Florida Marks 2nd shot, so I sent 2 more down range. She quickly flopped her head back down and never twitched again. I couldn't see any blood thru the 22 power scope, but she just laid there, not moving. The guides and both of us watched both elk for a bit and they never moved, so they said that we could put the guns away as they walked up to field dress the elk. The guide walked up to the elk, but when he got close to Florida Marks elk, mine got up and ran off straight up the mountain.

We figured we followed mine for 4 miles until it crossed a patch of bare ground and we (or rather the guide) lost the trail. I couldn't keep up with the guide, and I think I left part of a lung on the mountain trying to keep up. Not fun trying to keep up with a cross between a billy goat and a bighorn sheep that is years younger than you! The snow was about knee deep, and the elk kept going up and down the ridges. I ranged the shot after the fact, and it was only 120 yds, much closer than what the guide estimated. My altimeter said 8330' elevation corrected for pressure. I’m disappointed at myself for muffing the shot, and for not staying put until we KNEW both elk were down. We checked where my elk was laying when I shot. Very little hair, and just a tiny bit of blood. I'm guessing that with the bullet that I was shooting, if I'd hit anything substantial, it would have exploded. Maybe I just grazed her and knocked her out, she sure acted like that the way she got up and ran off when the guide got really close.

Lesson learned? When zero'd for 300 yds, always range the target if there is time. A few inches off can make a HUGE difference.

Dave and JJ went out predator hunting Tuesday night with a guy that Colorado Mark fixed them up with, but came home empty handed. I was supposed to go too, but after that high altitude hike I opted to stay in the lodge. They think they had a bobcat in the light at 200 yds, but miscommunication let the cat get away. BTW, we were told that bobcats in Colorado are going for $350 to $1,300 each this year!

Next day was spent in the lodge all day long, watching movies and BS'ing. I got up at 4:30 a.m. looked out, and saw a few flakes, but couldn't see the lights of Montrose, I went back to bed and got up a few hours later. We watched the snow fall, and I think when it was all said and done, about 18" fell at the lodge, and about 24" came down further up the mountain. We started off with coffee and JJ’s home made Irish Cream for creamer, and the Florida boys had Bloody Mary's. We finished up the day going thru 3 quarts of JJ’s apple cider hootch that is made with Everclear. Good stuff!!!!! I think we had green chilies and eggs for breakfast, I forgot what lunch was, but dinner was an appetizer of artichokes and mushrooms, with chicken, green chilies, mushrooms, rice and I forget what else for dinner.

Last day. When we got up @ 4:30 a.m., my phone said -17°F, and after coffee, it had dropped another degree. Florida Randy and Florida Harry went up the mountain, JJ (to call out drop and yardage), Dave (for moral support and extra help) and I along with my guide went about 30 miles away near Olathe, Co. which is about 1,300 feet lower in elevation to a ranch where the elk were supposed to be feeding on a ranchers haystack. We pulled through the gate and drove towards the haystack. Nothing. No tracks, no sign of any elk. So we slowly drive around on the ranch, following the 2-track that was there, going through a few gates.

The wind isn't blowing at all, but the truck thermometer says -8°F. Durn cold! Getting to the ranch, we saw a plow/salt truck that almost backed into a deep creek. We were amazed that it didn't tip over.

There wasn't room in the truck for my case and gun, so it was in the bed of the pickup, but I had the magazing and 8-10 shells in my pocket. JJ has the rangefinder and the dope book.

Anyway, we'd drive to a hilltop and glass. Nothing. Another hilltop. Nothing. Next hillto..... CRAP, there's a herd of elk! What a mad scramble. As*#$ and elbows all over the place in the mad scrambel to get out of the truck, get to the rifle, etc.. JJ ranged them at 250 yds, and before I could even get to my gun, they trotted down into a drainage and out of sight. I dashed out of the truck, got the gun, threw the mag into it and got ready. When they came out of the drainage, they all stopped at the top of the knob and stared. JJ called out range and clicks (400 yds. and change), I adjusted the scope, squeezed the trigger and promptly missed. WTH?? Checked the dope, lined up another and squeezed. Same thing, and the elk start moving TOWARDS the truck, then down into another drainage. Grab shells from my pocket, fill the magazine up again, and glass for the Elk. They popped up again, but they never really stopped moving, except for about 5 seconds. All there was time for was to JJ to range and call out dope, me to dial in more dope and squeeze off another shot, this time for 500+ yds. Another clean miss.

The elk are confused, and start towards the truck again just to go down into another drainage. When they appear again, this time they are at roughly 700 yds. They are milling around, and because there are a number of bulls and spikes in the herd of 30-40, it's hard to pick out a cow that doesn't have another elk behind or in front of it. Finally after JJ says "they're at 700 yds, the dope says to dial in 7 moa up." I confirm that I have dialed 7 and he says "dial in 2 more moa up". I confirm and dial up 2 more. The guide says to take the furthest one to the left, I move the crosshairs over, get the rifle settled in for a high shoulder shot and squeese the trigger. When I come back out of recoil, I can see the elk down on the ground, her front feet moving, but her back feet not moving at all. She had her butt to me, so I can’t put another into her without ruining a bunch of meat. We watched her for a minute (me through the scope set on 22x with a round in the chamber, Dave and the guide through 10x binoculars) and she quit moving. It took a while to find her, because we kept looking on the wrong hill, but we finally found her. The 180g Berger went right where it was supposed to, a high shoulder shot, clipping some of the backbone and dropping her in her tracks. With a VERY lacerated set of lungs, she expired quick. Looking at where the Elk went after the shot, I'm glad that she dropped there or we probably would have had to quarter her out to get her back up the hill. Less than 50 yds away they dropped into a 300 to 400 foot deep canyon before moving off.

The Berger performed great, exiting the other side. In looking at the data, and even at 700 yds it still hit her at somewhere around 2500-2600 fps and with about that much energy. We met up with the other guys and they saw a few Mulies, but no more Elk. She was back at the processor by 9 a.m., and she was all cut up, packaged and frozen for us to leave the next day. I asked for the hide, and with that she completely filled a 120 qt cooler and another 80 qt. cooler with deboned meat. Steaks, roasts, stew meat and hamburger.

That night right before dark, JJ and Dave are on the porch outside and they notice some specks in a field. Dave grabs the rangefinder and glasses, and we range a herd of cows at 1970 yds. JJ looks at the hill on the other side of the lodge and sees more Elk. These turn out to be a herd of 6 bulls, all pretty good, but one is really good, and looks to be a 6x6, 6x7 or a 7x7. I wish I had a bull tag! We ranged it at 1400 yds - well within the dope that we generated at the landfill, and the elevation was about the same. I could have shot a VERY nice bull right from the lodge.......... That snow really pushed the elk down from the high country in a hurry!

All in all it was a great trip. Crappy ride home because of the icing on the roads around Denver. It took us about 3 more hours coming home because of the bad road conditions. JJ sent me a text later after he got home saying that he had 1” of ice covered by 18” of snow, but Dave and I drove the rest of the way home on snow and ice free roads. It took us 24 hrs to get there, and 27 to get home

Congrats esshup! Sounds like a great adventure!

Thanks for sharing all the info. Did you use the rifle you had at TJ's?

Al:

Yep. That's why we had such a hard time at TJ's with it. The bullets sometimes weren't making it to the target - they were coming apart in mid-air 20 to 50 yds downrange from the muzzle. Too much velocity and RPM's coupled with a slightly rough throat (gunsmiths guess) boogered up the thin jacket on the Sierra MatchKings enough that they wouldn't hold together. The Bergers have a thicker jacket.

FWIW, that Sierra Matchking bullet is spinning 279,600 rpm when it's leaving the muzzle..... (MV 3495 fps, 1:9 twist rate)

http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/2008/06/calculating-bullet-rpm-spin-rates-and-stability/

To give you an idea where the elk was, take the distance from the shooting bench to the fence at TJ's. Now double that distance and add 1/3 more.

I'm glad you figured it out prior to your hunting trip. It would have been a bad deal to have that happen in the field. I wonder if TJ's neighbor's windows are still vibrating?

Also, does the cold air affect ballistics? I've never taken game over 150 yards, so I'm clueless.

Nice, Scott! Fun trip! Did you determine why you were missing?

Yes to both questions. Difference in altitude and difference in air temp all were contributing factors. Colder air is denser. Lower altitude air is denser. Colder temps make powders burn slower - some are more temp. senstitve than others. Slower the bullet velocity, the faster it drops. I had hoped to mitigate some of that by keeping the cartridges in an inside pocket where it was warmer. I honestly don't know how much they cooled off sitting in the magazine in the rifle.

The only thing that I can do is wait until we have a cold day around zero and go to the range and shoot at 500-1,000 yds and collect data.

It was a mad scramble to get the rifle dialed in before the hunt for sure!

Moving the Point of Impact (POI) up 2 moa actually moved the POI 14.66" at 700 yds. (1 MOA = 1.0472 inches per 100 yds)

A normal (average) sized Elk has a top of the back to bottom of brisket measurement of 18", so I was shooting just under them. I think that's why they turned and came towards me after the shots. The bullet was impacting the ground on the other side of the herd as I was shooting under the elk, and with the muzzle brake on the rifle, the impact noise was greater than the report of the rifle, so they thought the danger was on the opposite side.

Interesting analysis. Lots of variables in long range shooting, for sure.

Todd, the biggest variable is the wind. What it's doing where you are is usually NOT what it's doing down range. Wind can move bullets up/down/left/right and that can be all in the same shot! I've watched bullets move right, then left, then back right to impact the target. In long range shooting, when behind the shooter if you have good optics, you can actually watch the bullet "trace" as it disturbs the air when it goes down range.

It's the inconsistency of gravity that wreaks the most havoc with my shooting. Somedays, that rifle is just too blamed heavy to tote around for very long.

Strangely enough, I've noticed that those days tend to occur most often when there's heavy snow on the ground, or If I was up very late the night before, or maybe when it's cold enough to snack on a pinesap popsicle. And most recently, during a "River Monsters" marathon on TV.

Thank God someone had the foresight to invent gravity resistant, graphite fishing rods.

I hear ya! That thing weighs 12 pounds. I'd rather be toting around my 6 pound .243, but that long range gun has more than twice the reach of the .243. It's easier to walk up to them without the rifle when they're dead than stalk after them with the rifle when they are alive!

Although after my experience this year, I'm thinking of finding a lightweight rifle that can shoot to 600-700 yds if required. Something in the 6# weight class with scope. I know recoil won't be pleasant, but I can live with it for one or 2 shots on game.

Esshup,

Congrats on your elk!

You need to take up archery hunting...70 yards is a long ways on an elk with a bow!!

I'm a bow guy at heart, but I regularly shotgun/muzzy hunt deer in MI. I will admit though that I love the 3-4 opportunities a year that I get at a coyote behind the house at 3-600 yards. I love the challenge of touching off a shot with my 243 that has a chance to kill one at those distances. I'm not nearly proficient enough at those kind of ranges to shoot at anything except a varmint.

Once you are beyond 2-300 yards, it becomes another type of game and turns into long range shooting and it is quite a skill to master it and have the ability to kill animals at those distances. I wish I had the time to become more proficient in long range shooting.

Wind is a huge variable. My Brother was into precision shooting at 100 to 200 yds. He used 3 wind flags at 100 yds and 6 at 200. Sometimes none of the flags were going the same direction.

Something Todd should learn.