Pond Boss Forums STOCKING A NEW POND Types of fish to choose Can a person stock too many redear sunfish?

Everything that i have read is that to stock around 5 to 1 BG to RES. I am wondering why this is. BG can overpopulate and RES don't so why not stock the same ratio? I was thinking about stocking 300 RES and 300 BG in a 1/2 acre pond. Any thoughts

Depends on what your goals are... RES are not nearly as prolific as BG, so if you are expecting them produce trophy base, you may end up short on the forage.

I'd sure like to hear other's experience with RES. I keep putting them in my ponds. I see them spawning, but I never see any fry or fingerlings. I catch less than five per year -- but the ones I catch are all monsters. They immediately go back in the pond.

I have what I consider to be a good population of RES. My pond is 60 years old and it has been thirty to forty years since they were stocked. I generally catch all sizes, up to about 12 oz. I have never seen worms in any of my fish.

I probably catch 10 or 15 bluegill to each RES, based on what part of the three acre pond I fish.

I recently stocked 250 RES into a 4.3 acre pond that was bass heavy last year. Fortunately the 3"-5" range with several pushing 8".

This spring when we did a seine survey, we caught several RES in spawning colors in one shallow cove where they appeared to be spawning. Hopefully next year will pull in some YOY and yearling RES.

I was just really thinking of stocking alot more RES and same amount of BG. Just to have a large wide food base. Do RES eat alot of FHM and BG fry or shiner fry? I am just going to load up on bait fish and I don't have any experience with the RES

So back to my original question how many RES would be to much for a 1/2 to 3/4 acre pond? I am going to stock the pond with 25 SMB and 25 LMB nest fall. I currently have 20 lbs of fhm and 5 lbs of GSH.

My guess is that RES is like any other fish. If they don't have enough food, they will get stunted. The more you over stock them, the more likely that will happen. Perhaps you can make sure they have enough forage to do well. I know they will eat snails and worms. Perhaps others can give you all the other things they will eat.

Many of us have looked at the available scientific studies , talked to the on the ground biologists and sent out requests on the matter of RES stunting. We can not find a single instance or report of RES stunting. They may starve to death if no food but as far as we can tell no stunting due to over reproduction.

Also if you want both SMB and LMB, you want single sexes of each or the LMB will outcompete the SMB.

That's interesting Ewest. Always more to learn!

yep i figured after 7 to 10 years the LMB will overtake the SMB.

I think you could stock any ratio of BG:RES if you understand the consequences. Main drawback is lack of sunfish offspring to feed the bass. Consider stocking a heavy percentage of RES 80%-90% or just RES and just SMB. Then later add BG, when you see the BG YOY out numbering the RES more than your goals then add the LMB. In a small pond like yours it will eventually become dominated by BG-LMB if both are present. There are numerous stocking ratios possible. A RES-YP-SMB minnow/shiner combo is a pretty good starting point.

I think you are right fish n chips. The eyes on these two RES (top two) have signs of stunting, they are overly large relative to their body size. I got a handful of these from the fish truck last year.



Compared to:

Cat I have had decent luck with my RES. 2 weeks ago I caught 5 or six smaller ones. 2 inches to about 6 inches. I hadn't seen any all year until I broke out the worms and actually tried to catch them and there they were. Although I caught a few a couple of years ago that were already pushing 9 inches and I have not seem them again. They must be in there though cause I have smaller ones and I did not put them there. I have also caught a couple GSF/RES hybrids.

RC

Shorty - the lower two fish look like GSF or GSF hybrids and obviously different than pure RES.

Yep, those two did NOT get loose in my pond.

I posted about my expierence with the 50 additinal RES that I got from the "fish truck" during "fish days" in the spring of 2012. Cecil thought the two RES morts I had looked stunted.

http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=293460&page=2


Do the top two RES look stunted?

Shorty asks -""Do the top two RES look stunted?"" Yes I think by the size of their eyes in relation to body size they are somewhat stunted. This could be a common occurrence for the larger RES if there are not enough of the correct foods in the culture ponds which usually are overcrowded with fish so some RES stunting of larger individuals is very likely common for certain fish farmers. Not all fish farmers raise fish the same way. Locate good reliable fish farmers for your quality stockers - it is probably worth a little extra money to get better stocker fish.

These RES were just "bonus" fish from a secondary source with I think a more southern origin than the ones I had already stocked. The ones I stocked earlier were from a good source and larger, 4-6". My thoughts were a little genetic diversity might be helpful. My SMB came from two different sources as well.

I do have a small number of runts in my pellet training program that are last years hatch that are only 1-1/2". I could catch one and see if has large eyes. On the other end of the spectrum I have a few from last years hatch that are near 5".

If you did check this out like you mentioned, wouldn't this count as a good field study as to the possibility of RES stunting? Pictures of course help with the proof?

I will catch one of my runts tonight, the runts I have were 1" long when I seined them out of the pond at the begining of July. To me it's not clear if the smaller RES from last years hatch are late spawn fish or just slow growers that prefered to stay hidden in the weeds rather than feed. I do have very limited spawning areas so my adult RES may have taken turns in the spawning area.

I will run a seine survey this weekend too and take some pictures. One thing to consider is that I have a "gazllion" GSH that hatched this spring that they should be competing for some of the same aquatic groceries that my small RES need.

Here is one my runts from last years hatch. Stunted?

I don't think it is stunted very much but maybe a little. It appears plump. It could just be one of the slow growers in that year class - natural variability.

This one has been in one of my tanks for the last five weeks, he has been eating bloodworms but not pellets. He is no longer competing with my YOY GSH for food and has actually grown some since I pulled him out of the pond. I'll take some pictures of what I find during my siene survey this weekend.

Here is a thread and pictures from a "rake" survey I did in March/April of 2013 for comparison.

RES Fingerlings - Winter Survivors

Seine Survey Today

Ok back to this thread. IMO this is not stunting. You don't measure stunting in BG and RES like that. Here is why. Because of their reproductive nature (many yoy with only a few surviving to adult status) it is necessary for many to die in year one. Most die from starvation (born at the wrong time when no right size plankton is available) or to much competition from other yoy (LMB , BG , Shiners , FH , YP etc)for food. With their high initial growth rates they could look like that (or die) if right size food was missing for a week. Stunting is measured IMO in adults and near adults. In the written studies (and State Agency books) stunting in BG is talking about over year old BG stunting and becoming a problem -- same for LMB.

This does not mean however that you should not watch for bad condition (lack of food)undersized for age in your yoy fish as that is clearly an indication of class size and condition (a warning of possible problems to come). Class size in sunfish is wildly variable due to lots of factors and should be watched. But that is a natural condition and not IMO stunting but genetically imbedded in the species for survival purposes. In other words stunting is measured in an entire population not just a few of one size yoy.

I just got done stocking 400 RES and 300 CBNG, in 1 acre pond. We will see how I do? Bet it is fine and plenty of RES, to catch for a few years. You do not stock them you will not catch then

When best food for RES is depleted, not a lot is known how well they compete with HGB and BG for food items. If food competition is too high RES will not grow well and not do very well as growing fastest when too many RES per acre are present. If you only put 400 RES in a 1 ac pond with plenty of snails then the RES should survive well until the first couple of spawns by the CNBG. Then competition for invertebrate foods could become a concern for optimum growth of the RES population. RES have a unique niche in the pond habitat and when crowded out of their niche habitat and preferred food items I think their numbers will struggle to really thrive.

[b]You do not stock them you will not catch them[/b]

I hear this statement a lot in my ventures working with the state. Seems to be a misunderstanding about not catching anything so you need to stock more. That's kinda like using duct tape as a band aide-doesn't really address the problem.

My RES are eating , FHM hard and taking pellets some, they have cleaned tad poles out, and went from 1.5 to 2 inch to 3 to 4.5 inch in 5 weeks. I am pleased so far ,

For years some of us (including the Fisheries professors) have looked for a stunted RES population. We have not found one. It is possible as Bill notes that without the right food they can certainly starve or be in poor condition. This is unlike PS and BG populations where absent management stunting is common.

Is there some mechanism on RES such that they reduce their spawning when their ecological niche is full?

Interesting question Rod.

Great question. There are many things (known and unknown) that can act to increase or suppress recruitment in fish. None of the guys who were looking into RES non-stunting ever said what they thought was provable but some of us thought that there is a trait/condition/adaptation that RES have which will turn off negative recruitment.

Bad analogy...sometimes duct tape is better than a band aide.

H20fwler, you are probably correct..